Old 07-21-2018, 09:24 AM   #81
Gerry G
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Default Just got the KK Mk 2 (61key)

It is very exciting on top of the MK1 49. More keys and I do need the redundancy/ backup for live shows. They layer well and can operate through a couple of laptops for extra redundancy/backup. My friend who is a Reason freak calls them 'toys'. I have been trying to turn her on to Reaper. I would really like to see her face with me playing heaps of 3rd party synths via Reaper in a live environment.

Please Code Gods answer my prayers and I will play a special set just for the coders. 0

I am wanting to integrate them with my Roland Midi pedal board (two midi pedals and switch buttons). Once I can hard pan a couple of keyboards and guitar with drum hits around a venue using two PA systems (plus one or two subs) Life will be perfect.

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Old 08-01-2018, 08:31 AM   #82
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Since I have posted the problem, I think I should post how it was solved:

* NI hardware could not communicate with NI plug-in under (recent versions of) Sonar and CbB.
* Users have found that things was broken after 1803 Win 10 update.
* NI and BandLab was "working"... without any visible results
* MS has released a new Win 10 update and the problem has disappeared

So, that story with NI has "Happy end". Why something was broken, what was the reason and how that was solved is unclear.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:40 AM   #83
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I am not sure I follow how something was broken let alone how it was fixed as it seemed to involve W10 and not the DAWs or NI software.

I think that was your point that the problem and solution both remain a mystery.

I have a MK1 and a Mk2 NI KK Bd and I found a dll for reaper in Komplete Kontrol but I am not sure where it goes or what it does. The ordinary Komplete Kontrol dll shows up as a plug in so I wonder why the extra dll on the reaper site.

Does anybody know if KK in Reaper has advanced any further or where it is at? I gather if the Mk2 keyboard is OSC then we should be able to take some OSC integration and modify that for our own workflow right? or maybe not?
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:29 AM   #84
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I understand that no Komplete Kontrol has an Ethernet socket, so it can't natively "have" OSC (as same is based on the TCP which is a network only protocol).

Could it be that the DLL works as an OSC converter talking with the Komplete Kontrol via a (kind of) Midi protocol ?

(Running OSC aware software should be findable in the OS open TCP socket list.)

-Michael
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:20 AM   #85
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I understand that no Komplete Kontrol has an Ethernet socket
-Michael
That is correct. There are no ethernet sockets.The connection is USB only. There are pedal and midi ins and outs which are typically not connected to anything.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:46 AM   #86
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Ethernet port is not a prerequisite for OSC to work, AFAIK.
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:13 AM   #87
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In fact not Ethernet, but any protocol that allows to transport IP.

There is an "Ethernet over USB" specification, but I don't suppose this is used here.

So I suppose that something propriety is communicated via USB, and hence the dll (or whatever) would provide a virtual network interface for the user software to hook to and exchange OSC (i.e. UDP) packages.

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Old 08-21-2018, 01:51 AM   #88
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In fact not Ethernet, but any protocol that allows to transport IP.
OSC has no bindings to any networking, it is a description how to pack named parameters with values into binary form. Not more.
So any system which can transfer packets of bits (and so f.e. USB) can transfer OSC.

But I guess that NI is not using OSC on the hardware level. At the same time I think NI is not using MIDI for that (controlling/display part), just some internal (I guess rather simple) protocol. Than the driver converts it to something else so Komplete VST and DAW integrators plug-ins can use high level protocol. That protocol can be OSC, can be even throw the (local) network stack.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:01 AM   #89
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-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control :
". OSC messages are transported across the internet and within local subnets using UDP/IP and Ethernet. OSC messages between gestural controllers are usually transmitted over serial endpoints of USB wrapped in the SLIP protocol."

OK. I forgot to think about SLIP (which is IP over serial, which in turn can be wrapped in USB (by "CDC"). )

That in fact is possible, but it does not solve the problem how to make any user software access the device via OSC. I doubt that any DAW or such will have an OSC -> (UDP) -> SLIP -> OS-Serial-port wrapper implemented, but it will need an IP socket to connect for doing OSC.

Now again a deriver thingy is necessary to be running that does the IP-Socket -> SLIP -> OS-Serial-port wrapping.

I do suppose that such a software can be found somewhere.

So theoretically NI could use OSC in their hardware, even just adhering to the appropriate standards.

Of couise they also could implement their own OSC via USB tunneling protocol when providing the PC site as a kind of driver.

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Old 08-21-2018, 07:22 AM   #90
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That in fact is possible, but it does not solve the problem how to make any user software access the device via OSC.
Perhaps using OSCIIbot?
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:54 AM   #91
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-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sound_Control :
". OSC messages are transported across the internet and within local subnets using UDP/IP and Ethernet. OSC messages between gestural controllers are usually transmitted over serial endpoints of USB wrapped in the SLIP protocol."
Wikipedia is far from precise information source when it comes to standards and technical details...

From http://opensoundcontrol.org/spec-1_0:
"Open Sound Control (OSC) is an open, transport-independent, message-based protocol developed for communication among computers, sound synthesizers, and other multimedia devices..."
and
"...An OSC packet can be naturally represented by a datagram by a network protocol such as UDP"

And so UDP is just an example of a carrier.

--
What proprietary controllers need for the communication is usually RE from de-compiled scripts for Ableton
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:17 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I understand that no Komplete Kontrol has an Ethernet socket, so it can't natively "have" OSC (as same is based on the TCP which is a network only protocol).

Could it be that the DLL works as an OSC converter talking with the Komplete Kontrol via a (kind of) Midi protocol ?

(Running OSC aware software should be findable in the OS open TCP socket list.)

-Michael
The DAW talks via OSC to the NIHardwareService running in the background of your computer (Windows + Mac). The NIHardwareService talks to the hardware device via USB. For button presses and LEDs HID is used. For the display they use a proprietary protocol.
I also explain it in this video (starting at about 0:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ITpKDPCVk
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:24 AM   #93
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Great finding !
So "NIHardwareService" is the driver I suspected to exist. Rather obviously it provides an TP socket and can be connected (by Bitwig) via OSC.

So if there is a spec sheet for the OSC command set used by NIHardwareService, it should be possible (e.g. for Geoff) to make thoroughly use of the Komplete Kontrol in Reaper.

-Michael
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:48 AM   #94
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Of course there's no spec sheet as it's a closed standard (NKS, that is, the way it operates internally). It'd have to be reverse engineered.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:14 AM   #95
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Of course there's no spec sheet as it's a closed standard (NKS, that is, the way it operates internally). It'd have to be reverse engineered.
(Great) Jürgen's project is LGPL. And the (Java) source code looks like well written ( == easy to understand)
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Old 08-22-2018, 03:51 PM   #96
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Quote:
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Of course there's no spec sheet as it's a closed standard (NKS, that is, the way it operates internally). It'd have to be reverse engineered.
Hmm. Does it fit with BitWig out of the box, or is a Bitwig configuration or extension loaded to do the appropriate connection ? (Seemingly the Java thingy by Jürgen ?!?!?)
In any case some information should be possible to be extracted from this.

-Michael
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:51 AM   #97
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Hmm. Does it fit with BitWig out of the box, or is a Bitwig configuration or extension loaded to do the appropriate connection ? (Seemingly the Java thingy by Jürgen ?!?!?)
In any case some information should be possible to be extracted from this.

-Michael
For Bitwig you need to install my DrivenByMoss extension (which is simply dropping one file into Bitwigs extensions folder: http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Bitwig/Bitwig.html

You might not be aware that I also did a port of this extension called DrivenByMoss4Reaper, which you can get here: http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Reaper/Reaper.html
Sadly, the Kontrol 2 extension is currently not part of the Reaper port (since I need to send all track data to the NI background service to make it work but I currently implemented automatic 8 page banking in the EEL script (that's also the reason why the MCU driver is only supported for 1 device)).
I currently wasted the last 3 months writing a new C++ backend for all 3 platforms (the Reaper API and extension docs are a nightmare), which I hope to release soon (when Reaper 5.95 gets released) to replace the pretty slow EEL script.
After that I will look into the paging and then support the Kontrol 2 as well.

The Kontrol 2 OSC protocol is very simple since it has a limited feature set (little bit of transport and track control, which you can easily get from the Ableton script or my code). BTW it is currently impossible to support the instance control since the necessary information is only sent to Ableton and Cubase (they check for the DAW name!).
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:33 AM   #98
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You might not be aware that I also did a port of this extension called DrivenByMoss4ReaperI will look into the paging and then support the Kontrol 2 as well.

The Kontrol 2 OSC protocol is very simple.
Yes Yes Pleaeaease. Bravo, Cheers, whoop and Hooray!
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:35 AM   #99
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Quote:
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Hmm. Does it fit with BitWig out of the box, or is a Bitwig configuration or extension loaded to do the appropriate connection ? (Seemingly the Java thingy by Jürgen ?!?!?)
In any case some information should be possible to be extracted from this.
If it did work with BW out of the box, the Java thingie wouldn't be necessary, NI's service would sort it all out directly, but there's no official BW integration yet done by NI.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:40 AM   #100
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Seemingly the "NIHardwareService" somehow reads the DAW name via OSC and modifies is OSC protocol specs it it detects a "supported" DAW.

Maybe a Reaper support extension (e.g. by Moss or Geoff) would need to pretend to be CuBase or Ableton to be able to use a somehow documented OSC spec sheet.

-Michael
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:00 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Seemingly the "NIHardwareService" somehow reads the DAW name via OSC and modifies is OSC protocol specs it it detects a "supported" DAW.

Maybe a Reaper support extension (e.g. by Moss or Geoff) would need to pretend to be CuBase or Ableton to be able to use a somehow documented OSC spec sheet.

-Michael
No, that is not correct. The "NIHardwareService" can be addressed from anywhere. It is the Komplete Kontrol Plugin I was talking about. It sends its ID via its 1st automation parameter but only to Cubase and Ableton.
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Old 08-30-2018, 02:15 PM   #102
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Just to be sure... with MOSS it's possible to transfer the selected track to the NI S-xx?
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Old 08-31-2018, 12:45 AM   #103
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Just to be sure... with MOSS it's possible to transfer the selected track to the NI S-xx?
What do you mean by "Transfer"?
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Old 08-31-2018, 01:49 AM   #104
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The problem with Komplete Kontrol in Reaper is, that the plugin doesn't get the currently selected track (automatic track focus). Therefore you always have to manually click "track focus" in Komplete Kontrol, in order to update the NI keyboard.
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