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Old 10-30-2010, 04:03 PM   #41
arkima
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Voted! Thanks Mr. Data

Wow looks like I made it to the button first. So, though I haven't grasped every detail - this for the ME part would be enhancements to the existing filter that we already have?

Anyway, simply awesome ideas and work that you've done in this FR. It would make some huge advancements in midi editing I reckon.

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Old 10-30-2010, 04:48 PM   #42
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Oh, thank you for voting!

And yes I think it would be a great enhancement, since IMHO the existing MIDI filter is very limited. Just think of notes: You can select "all" or any of the 128 but not a range to say nothing of more than one.



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Old 11-03-2010, 10:48 AM   #43
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Bumpelinchen - (whatever that may be )



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Old 11-03-2010, 12:36 PM   #44
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Hi,

Simply awesome...the graphic implementation not withstanding....this would kinda fill out the MIDI EDITING ommisions in Reaper almost completely for me...then if the MIDI realtime side got the same "treatment"...oh God that WOULD be complete Reaper nirvana! Because IMHO these are the areas where Reaper is the weakest. But we know that. ^^

Thx Mr Data.. and voted!

Guido

EDIT NM what i said about graphics...I LOVE YOUR IDEAS! I get it more now...Freakin unbelievably awesome! If v4 had just these enhancements..I would buy a comm license happily. Even tho I dont meet the annual money made requirement!

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Old 11-03-2010, 12:49 PM   #45
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Thanks Guido,

I really appreciate that!

I agree that Reaper needs more "MIDI love". I'm somewhat sorry that this doesn't get a bit more attention, but it could also be my own fault by putting it that detailed.

BTW: I mentioned in a sidenote that most of it would be possible and good to have in a MIDI plugin so that it could be used realtime.



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Old 11-03-2010, 01:38 PM   #46
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hi,
Data I was wondering, for eg. I have a yammy motif that has crappy aftertouch sense...I have a Reaper project w many midi items with unnecessary aftertouch info in them...i want to erase all of the item's aftertouch, but how?

If I may,if ur ideas were implemented from a window that could be accessed w/o opening midi editor, then one could filter/select/manipulate/erase the offending/pleasing data from all the items at oncce! I hope I just didint miss that part in ur comprehensive explanation of the FR..lol.

Also if ur ideas were implemented in a separate window,then u would please Evil Dragon..because his ME menu bar is full! HA! Thx again for putting in the time and effort here.Outstanding!

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Old 11-03-2010, 02:16 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post
hi,
Data I was wondering, for eg. I have a yammy motif that has crappy aftertouch sense...I have a Reaper project w many midi items with unnecessary aftertouch info in them...i want to erase all of the item's aftertouch, but how?
Dunno whether the Motif has Poly or Channel Aftertouch, but thats not important anyway.

If it was implemented, you could select all items, go to the MIDI editor, switch the filter on, go to the "Type" page, tick "Enable" select Poly or Channel Aftertouch, select "Select mask" (this button ), hit the delete key on your qwerty, done.

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If I may,if ur ideas were implemented from a window that could be accessed w/o opening midi editor, then one could filter/select/manipulate/erase the offending/pleasing data from all the items at oncce! I hope I just didint miss that part in ur comprehensive explanation of the FR..lol.
Well, intentionally it was meant to be in the MIDI editor, because that's the place where you'd need it most. But it hasn't to be accessible exclusively from there. It would also be great to run it from a menu or a toolbar button anytime and anywhere you need it.

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Originally Posted by Guido View Post
Also if ur ideas were implemented in a separate window,then u would please Evil Dragon..because his ME menu bar is full! HA! Thx again for putting in the time and effort here.Outstanding!

Guido
Yes, it doesn't even need to be docked. I just disliked the idea when working in the MIDI editor, that you have to drag around this filter window all the time when working on MIDI notes.

But why not please ED?



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Old 11-07-2010, 06:56 PM   #48
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Quote:
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Dunno whether the Motif has Poly or Channel Aftertouch, but thats not important anyway.

If it was implemented, you could select all items, go to the MIDI editor, switch the filter on, go to the "Type" page, tick "Enable" select Poly or Channel Aftertouch, select "Select mask" (this button ), hit the delete key on your qwerty, done.



Well, intentionally it was meant to be in the MIDI editor, because that's the place where you'd need it most. But it hasn't to be accessible exclusively from there. It would also be great to run it from a menu or a toolbar button anytime and anywhere you need it.



Yes, it doesn't even need to be docked. I just disliked the idea when working in the MIDI editor, that you have to drag around this filter window all the time when working on MIDI notes.

But why not please ED?



-Data
Wonderful....Where do I sign? Very well thought out!Thx again......its channel^^

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Old 11-07-2010, 11:52 PM   #49
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Yes, I'm a bit confused!! in this thread my sig that would lead you there misses. At least I don't see it (?)

So here goes: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3043


EDIT: Even more (???) - Now I see it.



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Old 11-19-2010, 03:37 AM   #50
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Skimmed through this. All well thought MIDI features interest me. And so is this one. Voted!

I am not crazy about the UI though. I know it's only mockups but in the implementation we need to be getting away from the Windows95™ UI elements.

And maybe, I think, I would prefer the filtering functions to be on a (collapsible) sidebar, in a vertical layout. A lot needs to be inspired/taken from modern incarnations of software like e.g. Photoshop CS GUI-wise. They've got the UI-productivity-workflow thing nailed down pretty much.

Collapsible, reorderable, detachable, hideable panels. Those are the key words.
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Old 11-19-2010, 10:30 AM   #51
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Thanks Evan.

Totally agree. The mockups are just built on what we have in the MIDI editor today. All in all it's not very impressive. I think, to make it real topnotch, Brice would be our man!



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Old 11-26-2010, 03:46 PM   #52
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Wow! This needs to be bumped. Everyone should vote on this.
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Old 11-26-2010, 03:59 PM   #53
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Thank you, Sly!!



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Old 11-27-2010, 06:29 AM   #54
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Mr. Data, you have included many important MIDI editing features to this proposal. I would like to see many of these features in Reaper 4.

These features could be made even better by focusing more attention to the UI side of this proposal. I'm not talking only about visual appearance or layout of the GUI elements. The usability of MIDI filtering features could be improved also by focusing to tasks that users would like to do and then try to come up with the most user-friendly and logical way to accomplish these tasks. I think it is not wise to add some complex features like Groove editor to the MIDI filter pages just because it seems to be possible. I think there are much more user-friedly ways to implement groove editing outside of MIDI filtering pages. Like using normal piano-roll editing to manipulate grooves. For example that would allow easy velocity manipulation (velocity is an important part of a groove).

I didn't find "use selected" button from your mockups. It is very important feature and is included already in Reaper's current MIDI filter. It is useful as a starting point for filter editing and can reduce manual value entry a lot.

I think it is not good to hide options/settings/features when "modify" or "enable" checkboxes are not ticked. Users should be able to directly see that there are many features available. Maybe additional features could be shown as grayed out when not applicable. Or these options could be collapsed to some GUI element that user can click to expand without ticking checkboxes first.

It would be useful to see clearly which filter pages are active. This information should be visible all the time in the main GUI element of the MIDI filter.

Combinations of multiple filter pages can be made in many ways. Your proposal is not clear on how this combining is made.
Is it like:
complete filter = page1 AND page2 AND page3?
Or is it like:
complete filter = page1 OR page2 OR page3?
Maybe it would be nice to let users combine filter pages freely with logical operators like AND, OR, XOR and NOT.
And is it possible to use second filter pages after event modification is used in first filter page? If yes, is the second page filter applied before or after modifications?

MIDI Channel modifications are confusing to use in the UI you proposed. I think it would be more intuitive and flexible to add an Advanced Paste feature where user can select target MIDI channel(s)/item(s)/track(s) for pasting. I think that would solve all use cases in much more user-friendly way. That Advanced Paste would be completely separate feature and not related to MIDI filtering.

Fill and Groove features should be implemented as separate features. It is not useful to embed these features inside MIDI filter feature. There can be similar filtering options in Fill and Groove features but these filters should be independent. This would make it possible to keep same filter settings in groove editor while manipulating midi filters. In other words it would reduce the need to save and load filter setting when using groove editor, fill, and midi filter features consecutively.


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Old 11-28-2010, 02:09 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Mr. Data, you have included many important MIDI editing features to this proposal. I would like to see many of these features in Reaper 4.
Me too, but I doubt it will in the near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
These features could be made even better by focusing more attention to the UI side of this proposal. I'm not talking only about visual appearance or layout of the GUI elements.
Surely could! I was building it up on what we have at the moment. Thing is, I built it over a long period of time (here an hour, there an hour) and as I was done with most of the mockups, the view of the MIDI editor changed. Suddenly there were e.g. graphical buttons instead of the Windows-buttons, so I renewed some things, but not all, because I wanted to get it posted some time finally.

This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
What I also had in mind, that doesn't come across right here is, that you could click into an input field (or whatever it's called), hold the mouse button and change values while moving the mouse up or down. so no typing values if you don't want to. But that was requested many times before already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
The usability of MIDI filtering features could be improved also by focusing to tasks that users would like to do and then try to come up with the most user-friendly and logical way to accomplish these tasks.
Yes, but this is a matter of personal workflow. Certainly I set it up in way that fits mine, maybe it fits others workflow as well, but surely won't everyone's. There might be an absolute logical way (although I doubt this), but people are not logical, they are people. What one thinks is "user-friendly" is absolute rubbish for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
But the elements are placed in a way, you can change them (or leave them) one after another from left to right (if possible). The concept of filter setting is the same as you would read something.
I don't think this is illogical.
However, it wasn't possible to follow this paradigm in every case without moving elements back and forth, i.e. left and right on every page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I think it is not wise to add some complex features like Groove editor to the MIDI filter pages just because it seems to be possible.
Why not have all that complex stuff in one place, instead of spreading it into single tools, making it necessary to get used to every new one?

I didn't put it in just because its possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
...some of you might consider this as more than one FR, because of the Fill and Groove Quantize things .... but as this could all work together like cogs in cogs it seems to me quite logical that this all belongs together. And putting it in three FRs, I’d had to refer to the filter all the time anyway.
Having it in different places would force you to move between "modes" or "tools" (and their load- and save-pages) or whatever back and forth, but this isn't what I had in mind. Imagine you want to edit a groove just for bass drum and snare but leave the hi-hat as it is (might not be common, but there you go). Or you want to move the drum and snare to another note (i.e. sample). You could do it without going somewhere else in one step. On the other hand, if you just want to groove quantize, you could do it without any filter setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I think there are much more user-friedly ways to implement groove editing outside of MIDI filtering pages. Like using normal piano-roll editing to manipulate grooves. For example that would allow easy velocity manipulation (velocity is an important part of a groove).
Using the filter doesn't exclude the normal editing in the piano roll. While editing grooves or using filter settings you could continue working like normal. On top of that could this combined with the selection pages of the filter and if these settings interfere, this might help:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Another idea would be to have a few tabs to chain more than one filter setting if needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I didn't find "use selected" button from your mockups. It is very important feature and is included already in Reaper's current MIDI filter. It is useful as a starting point for filter editing and can reduce manual value entry a lot.
This is done by using "use marquee" and "use time selection".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I think it is not good to hide options/settings/features when "modify" or "enable" checkboxes are not ticked. Users should be able to directly see that there are many features available. Maybe additional features could be shown as grayed out when not applicable. Or these options could be collapsed to some GUI element that user can click to expand without ticking checkboxes first.
I thought about that as well. In fact my first mockups (the ones I didn't post) had everything visible. Then I thought it looks quite overloaded. Also, if you see all elements, you can easily overlook, whether you have enabled the filter or not. When not seeing the elements, that are not enabled it's quite clear what's going on and why something doesn't work like you want it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
It would be useful to see clearly which filter pages are active. This information should be visible all the time in the main GUI element of the MIDI filter.
Yes, surely it should and is important! This, I regret to say, is something that fall over due to the "I wanted to get it posted some time finally" thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Combinations of multiple filter pages can be made in many ways.
Yes, they can, but not all combinations make sense. What would be useful e.g. to make a logical XOR operation between filtering a selected range and MIDI channel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Your proposal is not clear on how this combining is made.
Is it like:
complete filter = page1 AND page2 AND page3?
Or is it like:
complete filter = page1 OR page2 OR page3?
Maybe it would be nice to let users combine filter pages freely with logical operators like AND, OR, XOR and NOT.
If you have a close look, you'll get the solution yourself.

A user, who wants for instance to reduce the velocity of notes between c3 and c4 on channel 6 in a range from bar 6 to 9 by 20 will or wants most likely not bother with logical operators. He goes to "Position/Range", enables, sets it "from" 6 and "to" to 9, then goes to "Channel" clicks on 6 (which enables automatically), then goes to "Paremeter/Value", enables, sets "low" to c3 and "high" to c4, clicks "Modify", enters -20 in "from" (or "to"), and clicks the "Apply" button. Ergo all settings in the "Filter" and "Event type" rolldown are combined with each other as OR operators, Settings inside the "Position/Range" rolldown are AND operators and obviously the filters themselves act as AND operators. "Exclude" does a NOT operation on its page.

However, when it gets even more complex, and we take into account this again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Another idea would be to have a few tabs to chain more than one filter setting if needed.
...it could be useful to connect those tabs not only chain-likewise (which would result in an AND operation), but also with other logical operators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
And is it possible to use second filter pages after event modification is used in first filter page? If yes, is the second page filter applied before or after modifications?
How the filters are applied should depend on the order one applies them.
Maybe there should be an additional apply button for applying modifications on all pages at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
MIDI Channel modifications are confusing to use in the UI you proposed.
???

If I want to choose channel 2, I tick channel 2, If I want to move events on channel 2 to channel 8, I tick 2 in the upper and 8 in the lower row. If events on channel 2 should be copied to 8 but remain on 2 also, I tick 2 and 8 in the lower row and click "Apply". How could this made any simpler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I think it would be more intuitive and flexible to add an Advanced Paste feature where user can select target MIDI channel(s)/item(s)/track(s) for pasting. I think that would solve all use cases in much more user-friendly way. That Advanced Paste would be completely separate feature and not related to MIDI filtering.
For the highest amount of flexibility you have the matrix.
I think the Paste feature you mentioned would be something for outside the MIDI editor's filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Fill and Groove features should be implemented as separate features. It is not useful to embed these features inside MIDI filter feature. There can be similar filtering options in Fill and Groove features but these filters should be independent.
They are independent. If you click on the filter button there is no filtering unless you set something up. So you can use filtering OR filling OR groove edit OR any combination of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
This would make it possible to keep same filter settings in groove editor while manipulating midi filters. In other words it would reduce the need to save and load filter setting when using groove editor, fill, and midi filter features consecutively.
I don't see the drawback here, because on the Load/Save pages you can select which part of settings will be loaded or saved. It could even be possible to save different aspects of filtersettings in different file(type)s, which could simplify loading and/or saving, but depending on one's workflow it could also make things worse.

Anyway, thanks for the input, Jnif.



-Data
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Yes, but this is a matter of personal workflow. Certainly I set it up in way that fits mine, maybe it fits others workflow as well, but surely won't everyone's. There might be an absolute logical way (although I doubt this), but people are not logical, they are people. What one thinks is "user-friendly" is absolute rubbish for another.
Yes, I agree. We can't say that some UI solution is the absolute best one. However, we should still be able discuss about different alternatives and compare them. Maybe we will agree on the best proposal, or maybe not. Through discussion and outside-the-box thinking we may come up with solution that is better than the one proposed initially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
I don't think this is illogical.
However, it wasn't possible to follow this paradigm in every case without moving elements back and forth, i.e. left and right on every page.
I did not mean that everything inside your proposal is illogical. I was trying to point out that maybe some tasks that can be done with your proposed MIDI filter could be done more conveniently with a completely other tool or feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Using the filter doesn't exclude the normal editing in the piano roll. While editing grooves or using filter settings you could continue working like normal.
Maybe I didn't write my thoughts clearly. Here are some additional comments and questions regarding groove editor.
Editing of groove definitions (or templates or patterns?) should be clearly separated from the groove quantization. Not necessarily separated to different UI part but conceptually separated so that user knows clearly when he is editing the definition and when he is quantizing some MIDI notes. This was not clear to me when I looked at your groove editor proposal.
I still don't get it. Is your groove editor editing the groove definition, or is it quantizing items based on groove definitions, or is it doing both?
Where do you set quantize strength?
Where and how do you define velocities in groove definitions?
Maybe your proposal does not include velocity information at all in groove definitions. Or does it? If not then, that is in my opinion a serious limitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
This is done by using "use marquee" and "use time selection".
"Use marquee" is nice option for entering ranges but it is not the same as "use selected".
For example you have not included "Use marquee" checkbox to Note length or MIDI channel pages because you can not define those using a marquee. But "use selecte" could be used also on those pages.
Also, in many cases "use selected" would be easier to use than drawing a marquee. At least when you have some MIDI events already selected when opening MIDI filter.
Maybe there should be both "use marquee" and "use selected".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
If I want to choose channel 2, I tick channel 2, If I want to move events on channel 2 to channel 8, I tick 2 in the upper and 8 in the lower row. If events on channel 2 should be copied to 8 but remain on 2 also, I tick 2 and 8 in the lower row and click "Apply". How could this made any simpler?
I think it would be simpler and more flexible to use "Advanced Paste" that has selectable MIDI channel destination. Or you could use the already existing "Note properties" feature to change MIDI channel of selected notes.
Simplicity comes from the fact that every user knows how cut/copy/paste operations work.
Flexibility comes from the fact that "Advanced Paste" works also in ("the normal") use cases where notes to be modified are selected inside PRV (not usign filter rules). And you can very easily move notes/events to another location (time or note) at the same time as you change MIDI channel. In addition to all this you could use Advanced Paste to move/copy MIDI events to other MIDI items or MIDI tracs. That feature would be very handy in multi item/track midi editing in single MIDI editor. And when you look at this flexibility you can see that "Advanced Paste" is a more "general tool" that will add coherency to manipulation of MIDI channels, MIDI items and MIDI tracks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
For the highest amount of flexibility you have the matrix.
I think the Paste feature you mentioned would be something for outside the MIDI editor's filter.
Yes, "Advanced Paste" would definitely be outside of MIDI editor's filter. It could be used both in arrange view and in MIDI editor. And I think that it would be more logical way to manipulate MIDI channels. So, midi channel modification may not be needed in the MIDI filter.


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Old 12-01-2010, 04:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
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Yes, I agree. We can't say that some UI solution is the absolute best one. However, we should still be able discuss about different alternatives and compare them.
100% agreed.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
All of this is surely far from being perfect. In fact, I see some flaws myself, looking over my written babble already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Maybe we will agree on the best proposal, or maybe not. Through discussion and outside-the-box thinking we may come up with solution that is better than the one proposed initially.
Sure, let's see. On the other hand we probably shouldn't over-estimate the whole thing. You see, these are only proposals. Which aspect of it - if any - gets implemented lies in the dark anyway. The FR isn't even elevated and I doubt it will be, actually.

I really appreciate you thoughts. Some of them came up suddenly to myself after I posted the whole thing and others I didn't even think of and about yet others we seem to have a different view. But what the heck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I did not mean that everything inside your proposal is illogical. I was trying to point out that maybe some tasks that can be done with your proposed MIDI filter could be done more conveniently with a completely other tool or feature.

Maybe I didn't write my thoughts clearly. Here are some additional comments and questions regarding groove editor.
Editing of groove definitions (or templates or patterns?) should be clearly separated from the groove quantization. Not necessarily separated to different UI part but conceptually separated so that user knows clearly when he is editing the definition and when he is quantizing some MIDI notes.

This was not clear to me when I looked at your groove editor proposal.
I still don't get it. Is your groove editor editing the groove definition, or is it quantizing items based on groove definitions, or is it doing both?
Where do you set quantize strength?
Where and how do you define velocities in groove definitions?
Maybe your proposal does not include velocity information at all in groove definitions. Or does it? If not then, that is in my opinion a serious limitation.
As I said, after I posted it, I saw some flaws myself, suddenly. The Groove editor in this case here, would only work properly with pre-quantised material and moving the diamonds would shift the corresponding notes. To do velocity changes on a groove, it would still need two steps here in either order: edit the groove and using the "Position/Range" to set ranges to then change velocity in one go. Or even better, when combining with the other filter settings (e.g notes or note ranges), you can put different velocity patterns to different instruments.
But still there is surely room for improvement.

Maybe (an) additional parameter(s) should be added to the Groove Editor page, where you can set the range width. And - if doing so - the next question comes up immediately: Shall the MIDI events be quantized to the diamonds and then shifted when moving a diamond or shall they remain in their position inside the set range width and shifted relatively when a diamond is moved or anything in between by having a quantize strength parameter? To do this properly, the Quantize functions should be moved or added to this whole thing as well. But when implementing (or moving) them, they should not only be used on the Groove Editor, but also on all other filter settings as well.

If fact, I thought of putting the quantize functions in here also, but then came in the "I want to post this some time" thought again. And besides that - it's there already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
"Use marquee" is nice option for entering ranges but it is not the same as "use selected".
For example you have not included "Use marquee" checkbox to Note length or MIDI channel pages because you can not define those using a marquee. But "use selecte" could be used also on those pages.

Also, in many cases "use selected" would be easier to use than drawing a marquee. At least when you have some MIDI events already selected when opening MIDI filter.
Maybe there should be both "use marquee" and "use selected".
Oh shit. I don't know my own ideas anymore.

The original idea was, that if you have nothing selected you make the selection(s) with the filter and if anything is selected (via "Use marquee" and/or "Use time selection", all settings of the filter refer only to these. But following this, I see the flaw. You can either make a selection by marquee and/or time selection or by selecting something before using the filter, which is then put to the filter, but you can't combine these two.

Think I'll have to change the mockups (and descriptions) - oh dear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I think it would be simpler and more flexible to use "Advanced Paste" that has selectable MIDI channel destination. Or you could use the already existing "Note properties" feature to change MIDI channel of selected notes.
Simplicity comes from the fact that every user knows how cut/copy/paste operations work.
Yes, but wouldn't you have to paste the events three times then, each time having to set the channel as well, if they should go from chan 2 to, say, 8, 10 and 12?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Flexibility comes from the fact that "Advanced Paste" works also in ("the normal") use cases where notes to be modified are selected inside PRV (not usign filter rules). And you can very easily move notes/events to another location (time or note) at the same time as you change MIDI channel. In addition to all this you could use Advanced Paste to move/copy MIDI events to other MIDI items or MIDI tracs. That feature would be very handy in multi item/track midi editing in single MIDI editor. And when you look at this flexibility you can see that "Advanced Paste" is a more "general tool" that will add coherency to manipulation of MIDI channels, MIDI items and MIDI tracks.

Yes, "Advanced Paste" would definitely be outside of MIDI editor's filter. It could be used both in arrange view and in MIDI editor. And I think that it would be more logical way to manipulate MIDI channels. So, midi channel modification may not be needed in the MIDI filter.
I'd go for both methods, because on one hand you can't leave out the "Chan" page from the Filter pages, since the channel is part of a MIDI event and if you don't leave this page out, not being able to change/move/copy events from one channel to another right there (on the "Chan" page), while on other pages being able to do this, would be quite confusing as well, I think.

IMO the big strength and advantage and at the same time (to some) one of its greatest drawbacks is, that you can do the same things different ways.



-Data
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:22 AM   #58
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Default Enhanced MIDI Functionality is Essential!

Hi, new to the forum. i'm a longtime Cubase user, on SX, many leagues behind the upgrade curve, and now exploring Reaper as a less expensive and maybe friendlier DAW. But in spending some time today looking into whether or not there are robust MIDI features I had not yet seen, I've begun to understand that... there aren't.

I LOVE the Cubase Logical editor (mind you, my reference point is now outdated as just noted). Complex filtering with Boolean logic, scale modifications, complex time and position changes, and the ability to save a batch of these moves as a preset- without these or something approximating them, I'm envisioning Reaper as just too MIDI unfriendly to delve into any further.

So, any and all improvements in this realm get a vote from me as a future feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
100% agreed.





Sure, let's see. On the other hand we probably shouldn't over-estimate the whole thing. You see, these are only proposals. Which aspect of it - if any - gets implemented lies in the dark anyway. The FR isn't even elevated and I doubt it will be, actually.

I really appreciate you thoughts. Some of them came up suddenly to myself after I posted the whole thing and others I didn't even think of and about yet others we seem to have a different view. But what the heck?



As I said, after I posted it, I saw some flaws myself, suddenly. The Groove editor in this case here, would only work properly with pre-quantised material and moving the diamonds would shift the corresponding notes. To do velocity changes on a groove, it would still need two steps here in either order: edit the groove and using the "Position/Range" to set ranges to then change velocity in one go. Or even better, when combining with the other filter settings (e.g notes or note ranges), you can put different velocity patterns to different instruments.
But still there is surely room for improvement.

Maybe (an) additional parameter(s) should be added to the Groove Editor page, where you can set the range width. And - if doing so - the next question comes up immediately: Shall the MIDI events be quantized to the diamonds and then shifted when moving a diamond or shall they remain in their position inside the set range width and shifted relatively when a diamond is moved or anything in between by having a quantize strength parameter? To do this properly, the Quantize functions should be moved or added to this whole thing as well. But when implementing (or moving) them, they should not only be used on the Groove Editor, but also on all other filter settings as well.

If fact, I thought of putting the quantize functions in here also, but then came in the "I want to post this some time" thought again. And besides that - it's there already.



Oh shit. I don't know my own ideas anymore.

The original idea was, that if you have nothing selected you make the selection(s) with the filter and if anything is selected (via "Use marquee" and/or "Use time selection", all settings of the filter refer only to these. But following this, I see the flaw. You can either make a selection by marquee and/or time selection or by selecting something before using the filter, which is then put to the filter, but you can't combine these two.

Think I'll have to change the mockups (and descriptions) - oh dear!



Yes, but wouldn't you have to paste the events three times then, each time having to set the channel as well, if they should go from chan 2 to, say, 8, 10 and 12?



I'd go for both methods, because on one hand you can't leave out the "Chan" page from the Filter pages, since the channel is part of a MIDI event and if you don't leave this page out, not being able to change/move/copy events from one channel to another right there (on the "Chan" page), while on other pages being able to do this, would be quite confusing as well, I think.

IMO the big strength and advantage and at the same time (to some) one of its greatest drawbacks is, that you can do the same things different ways.



-Data
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Old 01-26-2011, 01:42 PM   #59
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Many thanks Howldin and welcome to the Reaper forums!

Even if you're no Reaper user, you're welcome to post here.

You are right. Many users have the impression that Reaper needs more "MIDI love" and I have no doubt that it will get some.

Cubase has to offer a lot more in this aspect, but, although it might not help, we mustn't forget that Cubase is around for nearly 30 years now and it began with being a MIDI sequencer for the Atari, whereas Reaper is only here for about six years and began as an audio workstation.

Although not totally happy (to be polite) with Reaper's MDI features I admire it very much and so do many others as well. And I can mention just a few reasons for this (No order of importance BTW).

Reaper runs stable. I used it more than once in a live environment. I wouldn't dare to do so with Cubase. To my experience Reaper only crashes when it bickers with certain plugins, but every DAW does this and every DAW has its plugins it doesn't "like". And even then you can use a VST in an extra task, so when a crash occurs, only the plugin crashes, but not Reaper.

Reaper's extreme flexibility in not just in working with it, but also in setting up everything like you want it to be. Starting from the UI up to its routing capabilities (and all the other things that don't come to my mind right now).

Cockos sales politics. It's built to a great amount on trust in the user. No crippled evaluation version. No silly copy-protection. You aren't treated like a potential thief here.

A great, helpful and mostly kind user-forum, participated by the developers of Reaper themselves, often helping to solve problems of one single user.

There's more, but...

Maybe you peep in here from time to time to see how it evolves. At some point it probably will even meet your (and my) MIDI editing requirements.



-Data
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:49 AM   #60
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Hey!

My 3000th post!!

I'll tell you how it could come to this by showing you what I'm doing the whole day long:



Anyway, by looking at the great MIDI stuff that we can await in the pending version, I thought I bump this again.



-Data
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #61
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Im all in on this too.
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:55 PM   #62
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This would be beyond awesome.


About presenting this in the UI, I would adopt a dockable (and collapsible) window snapped to the MIDI editor, completely replacing the current MIDI Filter window. Each section Mr. Data has so thoroughly laid out could be done via collapsible sections, like in EricM's Item Properties GUI Cleanup feature request. That would look quite modern already. And I'm sure things could be done in an even more eye-appealing way.
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Old 06-30-2011, 03:48 PM   #63
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Thanks for the comments, guys!

Sorry for reacting that late, but I'm just now recovering from a severe flu.

EricM's Item Properties GUI Cleanup seems very appealing.

As you might have noticed in the comments, the graphical way I did this was criticized more than once and I'm not too happy with it myself, but at the time I began thinking about it I had a 22" 5:4 monitor and I disliked to have to move the filter window around every time I wanted to work on an event that's covered by it. And the space that now holds the toolbar was empty then. Also the graphical representation isn't the major point at all; the main thing is the functionality of the MIDI filter.

The idea with collapsible sections seems to be logical to me. First I thought of tabs for each section, but then I thought, "...WHAT... if we'd have, say, four complete filters selectable via tabs..." ... so, maybe four filters, selectable via tabs and in each filter sections expandable and collapsible ....



-Data
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
This would be beyond awesome.


About presenting this in the UI, I would adopt a dockable (and collapsible) window snapped to the MIDI editor, completely replacing the current MIDI Filter window. Each section Mr. Data has so thoroughly laid out could be done via collapsible sections, like in EricM's Item Properties GUI Cleanup feature request. That would look quite modern already. And I'm sure things could be done in an even more eye-appealing way.
Hi all,

Ed, I couldnt agree more..the MIDI filtering ideas from Mr Data with a tweeked Eric gui ideas...wonderfull! With the rest of the midi stuff thats in 4,and we are almost to perfection. To my mind it would then be on to tempo operations. Change all our avatars? ^^

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Old 10-04-2011, 09:53 PM   #65
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Just felt like bumping.


-Data
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:41 PM   #66
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I really like the note matrix idea.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:46 AM   #67
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Thanks Astroidmist!

Sorry for the late answer; Just now saw your reply.

Yes, the note matrix, although very flexible, is one of the more basic features this could have and I can imagine that this would be one of the most used ones.


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Old 02-09-2012, 03:40 PM   #68
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You guys know that I still cling to my elderly sequencer on the Amiga and so I didn't realise till this thread got brought to my attention that I HAD already voted on the FR and forgotten about it, even though herein lies many o fthe reasons I don't do any MIDI heavy lifting in Reaper.

So much of what you have outlined is stuff I already do without even thinking about it in B.P.P.
I am amazed to find so little of it is actually implemented in Reaper or, for that matter, many other DAWs.

And this also applies to simple things like relative or percentage or absolute scaling of MIDI events, which I use all the time.

I should get a list of all the "plugs" that come with B.P.P. and what they do - might make useful fodder for this discussion thread.
I am away now till the end of Feb but will try and make sure I actually do this when I get back.

Face it, if the Blue Ribbon Bakery guys could do this in the early nineties, how much of a hassle can it be?

We just need to keep nagging, I guess.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:51 PM   #69
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You're probably right, I regret to say.

I have just faint rememberances of Bars&Pipes. All I can remember is that it was pretty colorful and had a lot to offer at that time. Besides some other obscure things I had to deal with the terribly cumbersome Dr. T's and therefore never did anything serious with it.

All in all it's quite a shame that the Amiga had to die, because of some dumb decisions of even more dumb marketing fools. Where would it be today, I wonder, way ahead of its time that it was in many aspects in yesteryears already.


-Data
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:08 AM   #70
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I have just been reminded in another thread of yet another thing BPP has that pretty much nothing else does.

The MIDI mixer.

Assignable multi-function channels, choose what you want to alter and/or display with the fader AND the knob in each channel.

ANY MIDI function from velocity to FX levels and of course you can use it like a traditional mixer doing level and pan.

*sigh* No wonder I keep going back to the Amiga.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:07 PM   #71
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Just felt like bumping.

"Only" 80 votes up to now! this isn't enough and has to grow!!


@ Ivan: I hope your Amiga will last long. Mine is gone a long time ago. RAM blew, HD blew. . Now I've got only an emulator to keep it alive, but at least I was predictive enough to transfer everything to PC.


-Data
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #72
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Voted, of course. I mostly work with MIDI since I can't play sh*t even if my life depends on it, and with a few improvements Reaper could beat any other DAW out there in this matter.

BTW, here's again the link for the request, since it's in the beginning of this page and sometimes people is a bit lazy

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3043

Edited, oh, ok, it's in your signature. I couldn't find it anywhere in the previous page.

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Old 06-28-2012, 03:54 PM   #73
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Thanks Tricky!

Dunno why the sig isn't shown on the first page. Thank you also for repeating the link. Nobody looks at sigs anyway. Once read they're forgotten.

The idea to this came from a feature in Cubase, called "Logical Editor", in fact - besides its toolbox - the only thing I like about Cubase. And sometimes I'm forced to use Cubase just because of this feature ... and I go .


EDIT: Just entered the link once again right below the description of the whole thing. Thanks again.


-Data
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:21 PM   #74
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After countless aeons it's time to bump, isn't it?


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Old 10-19-2013, 09:26 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
After countless aeons it's time to bump, isn't it?


-Data
Yes, Mr. Data, I think it is.


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Old 10-19-2013, 10:16 AM   #76
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Always pisses me off that important and RELEVANT stuff like this never seems to do much but languish around apart from the odd bump.

Maybe we should have a protest march to Justin Towers and shout anti-Llama slogans till he and the other two capitulate?

What do we want?
Proper MIDI filtering and control!
When do we want it?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!


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Old 10-19-2013, 10:35 AM   #77
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Maybe I (or someone else) should bump this more often to tick them off.

Maybe once a day?

-Data
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:16 PM   #78
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Since I have been here quite rare lately and dunno really when I'm gonna be on again, I thought It'd be a good idea to bump this yet again.


-Data
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:34 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Always pisses me off that important and RELEVANT stuff like this never seems to do much but languish around apart from the odd bump.

Maybe we should have a protest march to Justin Towers and shout anti-Llama slogans till he and the other two capitulate?

What do we want?
Proper MIDI filtering and control!
When do we want it?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!


If we do this we mustn't forget our whistles!!

-Data
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:43 PM   #80
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5000!

Post No. 5000! So I thought it would be a good idea to bump this thread again.

Will this ever find a way into Reaper in one or the other (consequent) way?
Explanation might be cumbersome, but usage would be so easy!


-Data
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