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Old 10-25-2017, 08:44 PM   #1
RDBOIS
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Default Microphone – Enhanced frequencies harmonics/overtones – Is this normal?

Hello

Can someone please help me figure out what is going on when I record with my dynamic HeilPR22 microphone?

I’ll put an audio clip soonest, but let me describe the phenomenon:

Say I’m recording an acoustic guitar (I suspect this is also true for any instrument). The microphone seems to be picking up the sound of the guitar PLUS a very narrow enhanced band of frequencies, which seems to be related to specific harmonics/overtones.

The enhanced sounds are very annoying because they are appear to be layered on top of the rest of signal, therefore making that region of the spectrum LOUDER/unbalanced.

If I move the microphone to another place I get the normal change in tone PLUS a different narrow enhanced band of frequencies. I could simply go with the flow and decide which mic placement is the least irritating (i.e. the frequencies more or less agreeable with the overall sound of the guitar/key of the chord), but, still, I would prefer to just have the sound of the guitar without any enhancements/LOUD overtone.

Now, if I move around while playing I hear the change of tone, which is normal, but these overtones change and create something more or less like a flanger or phaser / wah wah effect. Can you imagine how annoying this phenomenon can get? It’s like having to settle on a particular flanger setting while trying to record a clean sound… I now have to place the microphone for a specific tone AND for the enhanced overtones...

Ohhh hey, I should mention that if the microphone in near the sound hole the overtones are lower in the frequency spectrum, but if the microphone is higher up on the fret board, say fret 10, then the overtones seem to be higher, thus even more annoying because they sound like a very high pitch ringing.

I tried searching in Google to find information regarding this phenomenon, but nothing similar popped up. I found people taking about the room, the strings, the arm rest, moving while playing, etc. I’m aware of this, but I don’t think it is related to my situation.

Setup? Nothing special; laptop sound card ADM Realtek HighDef 16bit 48000, Asio4all, Samson STUDIO-GT Active Studio Monitors with USB Audio Interface with XLR/TRS input...


Is this normal and related to the cardioid pattern of a cheap dynamic microphone?
Is some hardware biasing, distorting, or enhancing the signal (e.g. sound card, input hardware)?
Is this totally normal and I’m just very sensitive to small noise changes?
Is my guitar producing extra loud overtones?

Any have similar issues?
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Old 10-26-2017, 04:29 AM   #2
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You said that the frequencies affected by this "phenomenon" change with the mic's position. This excludes any hardware issue.

I'd say it's just the normal change in tone that you obtain by placing the mic in different spots relative to the source. The acoustic guitar emits most of its low frequencies from the body plate and the hole, while near the frets you hear high frequencies and fret noise.

Try to do the same with your ears instead of the mic, you should clearly hear the same kind of timbre differences.

You can increase the distance of the mic from the guitar, so it picks more of the total timbre instead of the vibrations from a narrow spot, and since it's a cardioid you could also play with the angle: for example put the mic in front of the hole or in front of the center of the front board - not too close - and pointing not directly towards the hole, but towards the joint between the body and the neck, so it'll pick a blend of the low frequencies from the body and high frequencies from the neck.
Or you could - as it's often done - use two mics, one for the body and one for the neck.

Since this is a DAW forum, we most often discuss about mixing techniques to shape the sound AFTER it's been captured, but the first step to have a good sound is choosing a good mic position. Play with the position, angle, distance until you find what works best with your guitar; it'll take some time but it will be worth it.
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Old 10-26-2017, 04:57 AM   #3
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Any chance the mic got dirty?
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:34 PM   #4
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Flanging is really just a way of saying "phase shifts."

Where are you placing the mic relative to the room? Are you near a wall or some other reflective surface that could be causing a multi-path problem at the mic?
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Old 10-26-2017, 06:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Ohhh hey, I should mention that if the microphone in near the sound hole the overtones are lower in the frequency spectrum, but if the microphone is higher up on the fret board, say fret 10, then the overtones seem to be higher, thus even more annoying because they sound like a very high pitch ringing.
As important as the sound hole is to an acoustic guitar, it can also be the biggest destroyer of the sound from a microphone, no mater how good the mic is. Placement can be crucial for this.

However, when placed on the neck and producing a high pitch ringing is really very strange, unless maybe you're getting a harmonic from the strings.

I've got an old yamaha acoustic gutar that I got back in the 60s, it's terrible for recording rhythm, but sings like a bird when it's used for lead. It's the sound from the sound hole that makes it's character, and it just don't work good for rhythm.

I suppose it could be your mic. My favorite mics for the acoustic are a couple of AKG 451 pencil condensers.

I've got an Audia Technica lapel mic that I attach to my Yamaha with a clamp, and it's pointed right at the hole. I don't know why, but it's a great sound for AG lead.
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:23 PM   #6
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I don't see the mic distance that was used, sounds a whole lot like, it's a whole lot too close.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:11 PM   #7
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It's a new mic, not dirty.

Mic distance tested was 1 foot, 2 feet, and 3 feet, all angles and directions, etc...

The mic has "noise cancellation", whatever that means? Something about being good for live gigs; it doesn't pick up sounds from the back as much.

- "noise directed at the rear of the mic is virtually eliminated through a combination of special porting & phasing plug design"

- "PR 22 microphone has exceptional mids and highs, but not at the expense of sacrificing any of its frequency range. The PR 22 is an extraordinarily “stage-friendly” mic that can take a full-on snare hit & deliver the richest sounding snare with no overload, and no compromise. When using a pair of PR 22’s on a snare (one top-mount & one below), they produce what some say is the best snare sound available at any cost, with little or no EQ."

- "The PR 22 is able to deliver rich vocals, warm & accurate guitar, crisp snare drums with depth, stellar piano, shimmering cymbals, and more, to the board like never before."



I record sitting in front of the computer, in my back is a rack of clothing that damps the sound and in front is a book shelf. Small room, no echo, sound don't seem to be bouncing off anything.

The guitar is really really loud in the mid range. I looked it up and it has what they call "Newly Developed Scalloped Bracing". Darn... Tod you might be right, perhaps this guitar is not good for recording rhythm with a microphone. The harmonics are just too loud! I does sound really sweet unplugged, played live, because it sings real good, but...



Could be a combination of the guitar and the mic ; loud mid and overtones from the guitar picked up by a mic that gives a bright sound? Just my luck...

Besides getting a new mic and new guitar (sheeeesh), is it reasonable to expect a descent sound by cutting some harmonics with an EQ plugin? This would mean figuring out which frequencies to cut; for example if A=440, then i cut 440x2=880, 880x2= 1760, etc... Hmmm... what about when playing chords; any additional overtones coming out besides the notes played? Is this a reasonable strategy, or should i just boost a narrow band in the eq plugin to find the extreme ringing spots that need a cut?


Should i experiment by, say, putting a sock on the mic? Or even stuffing a fleece blanket inside the guitar? Or ducktaping something on the sound board?

It would be best to fix the sound before recording, right?

I don't know... I'm trying to keep a positive outlook on the situation.




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Old 10-27-2017, 04:30 AM   #8
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Oh, I missed the part where you said about the "flanging" effect. If that happens with both guitar and mic in place, unmoving, that's weird. If you can post some recording, I think it could help us figuring out what's going on.

About the mic: the "noise cancellation" feature is just the usual cardioid pattern, it means that it's more sensitive to sound coming from its front than to sound from its back. The first point you quoted is just a semi-technical explanation of that, the other two points are just marketing garbage.
From the frequency plots, it seems that it's rather colouring, with a wide emphasis between 2kHz and 12kHz and quite a dip around 750Hz. But that's not necessarily bad.

About the guitar: if it sounds good to you ears, you should be able to find a mic placement where it sounds good to the mic also.

About the room: in any room you're guaranteed to have some reflections, and the small size doesn't help, actually. But that's easy to assess: just place the mic and record some hand claps or finger snaps. Keep in mind that different spots of both the mic and the hands will give you different resonances and comb filtering, so that plays a role as well: it could be that sitting in your usual place is not the best spot in the room to record the guitar.
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Old 10-27-2017, 04:38 AM   #9
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If what you're hearing is "ringing" then you're likely dealing with pitched harmonics and they seem to be present in most strummed acoustic guitar sounds. They can only be removed by tight EQ notches, often automated as their pitch varies with the chords being strummed. In my experience, the more I sit and listen while trying to remove them, the more sensitive my ears become to them.

I agree with Emarsk's comments about room size and "echo".
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:24 AM   #10
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Yeah, I'd need to hear it(!!!) but I'm willing to bet it's comb filtering from quick reflections in the small room. Maybe off the computer monitor, maybe off the ceiling or the floor... More likely a combination of all of those things.

Physics is real and doesn't care what you heard on the internet or think might be good enough. You've done very close to nothing to treat this room. No "echo" means it's too small for any of the reflections to be heard independently which means they're just right for comb-filtering. No ringing means the reflections get scattered enough on the second or third bounce to not reinforce themselves or each other, but what we're talking about is the first bounce.

I thought the hand clapping idea might be instructive. Take the guitar out of the equation, and I mean like outside the room or in a case or something. Sometimes hand claps are too short and unpredictable to really hear and tell what's happening there, though.

BTW - All that stuff from Heil about "noise cancelling" is exactly the same thing that every cardioid mic does. It's how it works and always has been. Maybe they do it better than some, but if you look at that graph, it's most effective in the mid range. On paper, it looks like about any other mic in its class.

I really don't like the idea of narrow EQ cuts and like even less having to automate those. That's usually just not worth it. If you can't get it usable with broader and less drastic measures, then you need to either find it and fix it or embrace it and make it yours.

Will you please post a short example so we can stop speculating and start actually helping?!?
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:15 AM   #11
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Ok folks, here is a sound clip.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/opxojy9tlk...cguit.mp3?dl=0

Please let me know what are you hearing in your setup?

BTw, these are not new strings.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
I record sitting in front of the computer, in my back is a rack of clothing that damps the sound and in front is a book shelf. Small room, no echo, sound don't seem to be bouncing off anything.
At some point, everyone comes to grips with the absolute reality that the room you are in is the single most important aspect of your recording, setting the artist themselves aside. You are approaching that point right now. The finest equipment in the universe in a shitty room will give you a fine reproduction of a shitty room.

You may not think there are no reflections in that room, but there are. And since it's smaller, there's going to be more of them.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:53 AM   #13
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And since it's smaller, there's going to be more of them.
Well...they'll be faster and louder, which is actually much worse.

Edit - you probably meant "more" like louder in proportion...
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:00 PM   #14
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Well...they'll be faster and louder, which is actually much worse.

Edit - you probably meant "more" like louder in proportion...
More amplitude, and since you're getting second and third reflections, more of them, too. Which makes for more phase and comb filter problems. So yeah.

In any case, and for whatever definition of "more" we can agree on, small rooms suck. Good mics will show you just how much they suck.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:31 PM   #15
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I listened to your clip. I think Ash and Jerome have pretty much covered it. I can hear room reflections right away when you start talking. How to deal with it is the big question. You can go the "room treatment" route if time and budget allow or just try to find a spot in the existing room that sounds best.

AND, try not to move around when you're recording the guitar.

Best of luck.
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:13 PM   #16
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Well I guess I'm there - I need to treat a room! I'll probably just end up hanging some thick comforter blankets from the ceiling down to the floor to create some sort of "room".

Also, I think I'm suffering from two other things: 1) focusing to hard on something makes it stand out more, and 2) trying to get a better sound than the gear and/or room will allow.

Note: I don't move a lot when I record, but, like a said, I do have to choose a microphone location, thus choose a tone/overtone/harmonic exaggeration.
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:38 PM   #17
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From listening to the clip, I think you are being too nitpicky.

Maybe just EQ the highs down a bit, it's a bit bright. But it's totally useable imo.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:01 PM   #18
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I'm inclined to agree with Fergler. Yes, there are room reflections, but are they horrendous? Not in my mind.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:23 PM   #19
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From listening to the clip, I think you are being too nitpicky.

Maybe just EQ the highs down a bit, it's a bit bright. But it's totally useable imo.
Yes, I also agree, however, there are other aspects to consider. I don't know what pick you're using but you seem to be strumming pretty hard, I can hear string buzzing in some of it. Strumming hard will give you harshness no matter where your mic is.

When you play live, it's not a big issue, but when you play for recordings, it requires a little more finesse. Now maybe you know all that and it's a mute point, but that's what I hear in your mp3.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:57 PM   #20
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Nitpicky?

Yes yes, guilty as charged!

That's all I do, nitpick at this and that: what that too compressed or not enough, was it the right ratio, is that overtone to bright, was that vowel in that word to loud, should the next phrase go up or down, is that to honky, to muddy, was that "s" to S-like?

hehehe

Thanks everyone for lending an ear and commenting. You know how it gets once we hear something? They probably need an addition to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5):

Studio Recording - Paranoid Delusional Obsessive Compulsive Syndrome

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Old 10-27-2017, 09:14 PM   #21
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I was going to post something earlier about how we sometimes "crawl up our own asses", but having heard this now, it's definitely not subtle! I wouldn't say your being nitpicky.

I'd say you need to stop moving around so much when you play.

Like, pick the spot and position that you think works for the piece your trying to cut. Think about where it's going to sit in the final mix, and then use your angles to get what you need. There's a lot of great tones in there. It's just when they change so drastically that it gets weird.

Like, don't let it stop you from recording things that need to be recorded.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Well I guess I'm there - I need to treat a room! I'll probably just end up hanging some thick comforter blankets from the ceiling down to the floor to create some sort of "room".
Get RoomEQWizard and a measuring mic. Both are cheap, and you will get much better results when you can quantifiably determine what you are treating. Hanging blankets isn't going to do a whole lot for you. You will get much better results with some well placed diffusers or adsorption panels.

Last edited by jerome_oneil; 10-28-2017 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Because I suck at the quote thing....
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:31 PM   #23
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Your recordings really show a wide range of things to learn from. When you do the one where you move, its thousands of clues in one, something I wish all these spray tan "learn how to record like a pro" websites would include to actually be useful

If I'm close micing an acoustic with one mic, I go in with the idea that the microphone is ABSOLUTELY a wah wah, who's pedal position changes along with how I angle the guitar to the mic. Your recording perfectly demonstrates this way of thinking.

Also note just how crazy loud, the sustained part of the low end resonant frequency of the body is, and how static it is compared to the dynamic nature of the highs. To me, THAT is almost always going to be the determining factor in how you deal with the recording. Proximity effect can really decide this factor, and it just gets uglier the closer you get. To me, dynamic EQ/Multiband compression has been an FSM send to dealing with this, but moving further away sure helps!
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:35 PM   #24
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FSM- Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:38 PM   #25
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RaMen!
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Old 10-29-2017, 05:00 PM   #26
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Your recordings really show a wide range of things to learn from. When you do the one where you move, its thousands of clues in one, something I wish all these spray tan "learn how to record like a pro" websites would include to actually be useful

If I'm close micing an acoustic with one mic, I go in with the idea that the microphone is ABSOLUTELY a wah wah, who's pedal position changes along with how I angle the guitar to the mic. Your recording perfectly demonstrates this way of thinking.

Also note just how crazy loud, the sustained part of the low end resonant frequency of the body is, and how static it is compared to the dynamic nature of the highs. To me, THAT is almost always going to be the determining factor in how you deal with the recording. Proximity effect can really decide this factor, and it just gets uglier the closer you get. To me, dynamic EQ/Multiband compression has been an FSM send to dealing with this, but moving further away sure helps!

Thank for confirming that "the microphone is ABSOLUTELY a wah wah, who's pedal position changes along with how I angle the guitar to the mic".

With all the great responses in this thread I feel more empowered to do something thoughtful about the sounds I will be recording. I certainly will try damping/treating the room, BUT I'm going into my next recording session EXPECTING a "way way setting" (i.e. what I call an exaggerated frequency/overtone/, therefore will select (so to speak) which 'wah wah' tone I want, that will fit with the rest of the song (i.e. tones).

What a great learning experience.

I was hearing it, it was bothering me, I was fighting it thinking I wasn't normal, but now I'll be using it mindfully.
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:11 PM   #27
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One aspect that has not yet been mentioned but which is shown in the frequency response figure and which in my opinion is among the most important factors that coincide in your case is the uneven off-axis response of this Heil mic. Have a look at the red 180 degrees off-axis line. The "fairly even" on-axis response is completely distorted off-axis. This results in the perceived wah-wah effect while positioning the mic at different distances and angles with regard to the sound source. Sound coming from the sides is not captured neutrally but coloured (comb-filtered) and random frequencies add up or cancel out with the desired sound coming straight from the source.

Acoustic instruments have a very complex 3-dimensional sound emission and its a difficult task to determin where the spots are in the room where frequencies add up nicely or cancel out in an ugly way. Generally, the greater the distance, the more complete the capturing of the sonic image of the instrument will be with any mic but the room sound will also get more pronounced and may eventually become unbearable (in case the room sounds bad). The closer you need to put the mic, the more neutral it has to be (regarding on-axis and especially off-axis response) to still deliver pleasant results and a fairly complete sonic image of the sound source. That's what you pay for when you are purchasing Neumann or Schoeps small diaphragm condensers. They pic up sound virtually uncoloured regardless the angle it comes from which yields much more flexibility in the positioning without the risk of annoying artefacts.

So don't blame your guitar! The third take of the test mp3 sounds very usable on my system. If you have the chance to try out the Line Audio CM3, you'll notice that this mic has an astonishing neutral off-axis response. It is a decent low-cost alternative (in fact the same price as the Heil) for a Neumann KM 184 (which costs 700,- EUR!). I have 6 KM 184's and 7 CM3's and I use them all for the same tasks. The only drawback of the CM3's is their high sensitivity for touching noises as their body is extremely small and made of very lightweight materials. In almost any other regard they can compete very well with mics that are considerably more expensive.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:09 PM   #28
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One aspect that has not yet been mentioned but which is shown in the frequency response figure and which in my opinion is among the most important factors that coincide in your case is the uneven off-axis response of this Heil mic. Have a look at the red 180 degrees off-axis line. The "fairly even" on-axis response is completely distorted off-axis. This results in the perceived wah-wah effect while positioning the mic at different distances and angles with regard to the sound source. Sound coming from the sides is not captured neutrally but coloured (comb-filtered) and random frequencies add up or cancel out with the desired sound coming straight from the source.

Acoustic instruments have a very complex 3-dimensional sound emission and its a difficult task to determin where the spots are in the room where frequencies add up nicely or cancel out in an ugly way. Generally, the greater the distance, the more complete the capturing of the sonic image of the instrument will be with any mic but the room sound will also get more pronounced and may eventually become unbearable (in case the room sounds bad). The closer you need to put the mic, the more neutral it has to be (regarding on-axis and especially off-axis response) to still deliver pleasant results and a fairly complete sonic image of the sound source. That's what you pay for when you are purchasing Neumann or Schoeps small diaphragm condensers. They pic up sound virtually uncoloured regardless the angle it comes from which yields much more flexibility in the positioning without the risk of annoying artefacts.

So don't blame your guitar! The third take of the test mp3 sounds very usable on my system. If you have the chance to try out the Line Audio CM3, you'll notice that this mic has an astonishing neutral off-axis response. It is a decent low-cost alternative (in fact the same price as the Heil) for a Neumann KM 184 (which costs 700,- EUR!). I have 6 KM 184's and 7 CM3's and I use them all for the same tasks. The only drawback of the CM3's is their high sensitivity for touching noises as their body is extremely small and made of very lightweight materials. In almost any other regard they can compete very well with mics that are considerably more expensive.

Thanks for that thoughtful response.

Hey what about the loud harmonics in certain mic positioning? Any ideas why and tips?
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:49 PM   #29
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interesting thread on gearslutz about the proximity effect: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...-question.html

I would suggest you try omni condenser mic - DPA or schoeps! for most accurate reproduction (line audio if you need inexpensive) - Schoeps cardiod at an appropriate distance will be much more consistent as regards spectrum than dynamic mic as well.

Finally figure 8 ribbon from Royer is amazing on guitar and proximity effect expresses quite differently.
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