Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER for Linux

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2020, 08:08 PM   #1
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default As many Windows plugins as I could want

This was sort of a challenge to myself to see how many virtual Windows instruments running in WINE on Linux, I could stick in one song. Looks like eleven is about where I can't think of another part that won't step on the other parts. Anyway . . .

I still think in a two inch 24 track tape mindset, and was able to come up with 22 tracks with a bunch of Windows instruments. Superior Drummer 2 played from my plain and unexciting rubber pad kit, five instances of Kontakt for rhythm, solo guitars, hand percussion, bass, and tenor saxophone. Native Instruments B4 Organ, ToonTrack Piano Essentials Wurlitzer, Arturia MiniMoog V, plus Creative Labs Proteus VX Bag-o-Trix and Clavinette.

I'm playing everything but the drums on my MidiMan Keystation 61 midi keyboard, and recorded it piece at a time as I wrote the parts. The drums were a first take, one shot recording playing my pad kit and triggering the Windows plugin Superior Drummer 2, and they were recorded after all but the solos were finished. I had to eventually bump the latency in REAPER to 256 which is higher than I've ever needed, but this is pure Windows VST plugins on every track, using up almost all the 6GB RAM in my ancient DAW.

I call this one "Broken Windows" at:

https://www.soundclick.com/music/son...ongID=14078035
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2020, 12:40 AM   #2
Charango
Human being with feelings
 
Charango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Biarritz, France
Posts: 95
Default

Very cool Glennbo! It made me think of a group I used to listen a lot to way back in the day: Camel ‎– Moonmadness album 1976 Progressive Rock.
I love when it starts to "open out" and get free around 1'35, even starting to sound a bit Zappa-ish!
Keep up the good work!
__________________
My latest song

https://soundcloud.com/charango/what-is-left
Charango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2020, 12:30 PM   #3
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charango View Post
Very cool Glennbo! It made me think of a group I used to listen a lot to way back in the day: Camel ‎– Moonmadness album 1976 Progressive Rock.
I love when it starts to "open out" and get free around 1'35, even starting to sound a bit Zappa-ish!
Keep up the good work!
Thanks Charango! I went and played the Moonmadness album on YouTube. Very cool stuff. Don't know how I missed them back in the day. Looks like a Roger Dean album cover. I've been a Frank Zappa fan since I was eleven years old when I first got my first Zappa album, "The Mothers of Invention - Absolutely Free". That middle section was my favorite to play in the song.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2020, 09:01 AM   #4
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 20,685
Default

Nice stuff, Glennbo.
__________________
"What a dick comment. I'm gonna make sure to avoid your name." Dicks other than Trump can speak????
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2020, 10:37 AM   #5
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Nice stuff, Glennbo.
Thanks Ivan. The only real difference I saw using all Windows VSTi instruments in Linux vs doing the same in Windows was in the mixing phase I had to increase the audio buffer in REAPER to 256, where in Windows I'd have been able to leave it at 64 which was what I used in the tracking phase.

This was sort of an endurance test for me though, because normally I would have used a real bass, real guitars, and real acoustic drums. I specifically wanted to see if I could do a project consisting of nothing but Windows VSTi instruments running in WINE on Linux and for my compositional style, the answer is yes.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 04:17 PM   #6
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I had to eventually bump the latency in REAPER to 256 which is higher than I've ever needed, but this is pure Windows VST plugins on every track, using up almost all the 6GB RAM in my ancient DAW.
No longer true! On the new Ryzen 3700X DAW this project plays like butter using the same 64 sample block size as all the initial tracking was done with. The project is running in the background with email, news, web browser, and other stuff with no sign of a struggle in REAPER. From here on I'll be able to just leave it on 64 and never think about it again. And all the fans are dead quiet.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2020, 12:57 AM   #7
Mr. PC
Human being with feelings
 
Mr. PC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
Posts: 968
Default

Just to be clear, you're using the Windows Linux with Wine; not the Linux version of Reaper?
__________________
AlbertMcKay.com
SoundCloud BandCamp
ReaNote Hotkeys to make Reaper notation easy/fast
Mr. PC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2020, 07:31 AM   #8
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PC View Post
Just to be clear, you're using the Windows Linux with Wine; not the Linux version of Reaper?
I'm using the native Linux version of REAPER on this but all the instruments are Windows VSTi plugins that are running in WINE and being bridged to Linux/REAPER using the bridge "LinVST".
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 10:33 AM   #9
Mr. PC
Human being with feelings
 
Mr. PC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
Posts: 968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I'm using the native Linux version of REAPER on this but all the instruments are Windows VSTi plugins that are running in WINE and being bridged to Linux/REAPER using the bridge "LinVST".
Oh, awesome!! I really gotta try that. Maybe it's at the point where I'll have not-more headache trying to make things run in Linux than I would on Windows.
__________________
AlbertMcKay.com
SoundCloud BandCamp
ReaNote Hotkeys to make Reaper notation easy/fast
Mr. PC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2020, 10:49 AM   #10
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PC View Post
Oh, awesome!! I really gotta try that. Maybe it's at the point where I'll have not-more headache trying to make things run in Linux than I would on Windows.
For my compositional style of writing for a band or ensemble, I still have lots of breathing room. This test project had eleven Windows VSTi instruments, including two GB drum sample data.

Normally I would have recorded real bass, drums, and guitars, only adding sampled pianos, multi-instrument horn or string sections, Etc.

As long as you aren't composing 100 piece orchestral stuff, you can easily run Windows VSTi's and VST's unless they have nasty copy protection like PACE/iLok.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 01:22 AM   #11
Mr. PC
Human being with feelings
 
Mr. PC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
Posts: 968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
For my compositional style of writing for a band or ensemble, I still have lots of breathing room. This test project had eleven Windows VSTi instruments, including two GB drum sample data.

Normally I would have recorded real bass, drums, and guitars, only adding sampled pianos, multi-instrument horn or string sections, Etc.

As long as you aren't composing 100 piece orchestral stuff, you can easily run Windows VSTi's and VST's unless they have nasty copy protection like PACE/iLok.
So is the bottleneck RAM or CPU?

Is running a Windows VST like this simply more CPU intensive than doing it on Windows?

My Tascam drivers run better on Linux, so maybe things will run even better for me in Linux... I used to run Antergos, which was so perfect, but now Endeavor OS doesn't seem to work as smoothly, although they're basically the same thing..
__________________
AlbertMcKay.com
SoundCloud BandCamp
ReaNote Hotkeys to make Reaper notation easy/fast
Mr. PC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2020, 08:03 AM   #12
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PC View Post
So is the bottleneck RAM or CPU?

Is running a Windows VST like this simply more CPU intensive than doing it on Windows?

My Tascam drivers run better on Linux, so maybe things will run even better for me in Linux... I used to run Antergos, which was so perfect, but now Endeavor OS doesn't seem to work as smoothly, although they're basically the same thing..
The bottleneck is in running Windows software on a non-Windows platform, where it is running in an emulated environment and then bridged to appear as a native Linux VST/VSTi plugin. That's jumping through two extra hoops that doesn't happen running native Windows plugins on Windows. That said, running native Linux VST/VSTi plugins in Linux is just as efficient as running Windows plugins on Windows.

I've replaced all my Windows VST audio plugins with native Linux plugins, but for VSTi instrument plugins, there is no Kontakt or Superior Drummer replacements that are native Linux, so I continue using the Windows versions of most of my instrument plugins.

Using all native Linux VST plugins for audio and bridged native Windows instrument plugins running in WINE doesn't tax my system enough to notice any difference from how it all worked when I was still running Windows.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 01:04 AM   #13
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
The bottleneck is in running Windows software on a non-Windows platform, where it is running in an emulated environment and then bridged to appear as a native Linux VST/VSTi plugin.
I feel that it's not really appropriate that we need to use a full Wine installation to run VST DLLs.This should dramatically reduce the overhead.

Of course this is a moving target (but Wine is a moving target, anyway), but a "bridge" that allows (most) Windows VSTs to work in Reaper should use only part of what Wine provides in a more controlled self-contained way.

Obviously (sauf certain exceptions) VSTs need
- DLL loading environment
- VST specs
- timing
- GUI stuff (supposedly certain restrictions can be tolerated)
- Registry access (mainly for licensing ? )

and don't need (e.g.)
- networking
- USB (those using Dongles (yak...) will need the (currently normal) full Wine method
- much more that is not worth mentioning

Supposedly temporarily running the full Wine environment for the installation / registration process of certain plugins (e.g. by NI) will be necessary.

I recon that such a "bridge" could be done using necessary code of the Wine project and implementing this in a Reeaper-specific executable.

Supposedly a decent amount of work needed here, but a community project should be able to do that - given that the Wine-code is GPL, anyway - of course with some help from Cockos (e.g. regarding the Reaper<->Bridge Interface code).

Once "Kontakt" runs in that bridge, many other VSTs will, as well, and it would be widely usable.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 09-17-2020 at 01:11 AM.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 04:32 AM   #14
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

A bridge already exists. Cockos doesn't have to make one.

Also, consider the only existing bridge that Reaper has: 32 to 64 bit plugins, but for VST within the same OS. Did you notice what process is running when it does this? Basically it loads another version of Reaper, the version which the plugins will be compatible with. As clever as that is, I'm sure you understand that it's nowhere near any other kind of plugin bridge such as one format of plugin to another. I don't know why you keep expecting Cockos will want to be a part of this.

As for the rest of what you're saying, if you want to proceed then that's probably the best way for something like this to happen. It will need someone willing to be the leader. Why not you.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 05:26 AM   #15
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

Yep. I am indeed considering this, given the progress Reaper for Linux already made.

I am a bit frustrated though, as I tried to create a Reaper extension that shows a spreadsheet kind of user interface (like SWS LiveConfigs) some months a go, and never was able to get any decent progress.

OK, I'm rather dumb on that bnehalf, as I did a lot of work with "embedded" microcomputer projects (e.g. with GNU C), but never used C on a PC before, nor any C++.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 11:57 AM   #16
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

So Michael, do you need 100s of tracks of Windows VSTi's?

How about 25? I'm pretty sure my machine would still be happy running 25 using WINE and LinVST. Running 11 didn't exhibit any kind of stress or strain, and I only stopped at 11 with my test project because there was no space on the soundstage for more stuff.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 02:11 PM   #17
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

My opinion: be thankful for the existing Wine, LinVST etc. solutions available, since they already do a great job, and you can contribute to their development to help improve them.

Also my opinion: anyone using Linux and wanting to run Windows software--at all--should be prepared to do some homework.

My opinion yet again: if you're a Linux user, it's time to "grow up" a bit in terms of your computer knowledge. You don't choose Linux to "hold your hand".
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank

Last edited by JamesPeters; 09-17-2020 at 07:05 PM.
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 02:22 PM   #18
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
You don't choose Linux to "hold your hand".
Very wrong, regarding that any close to Android is Linux under the hood.
Like with Android, an average Reaper user should not need to bother about the OS Reapler runs on.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 02:26 PM   #19
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

You chose to misrepresent what I said. Android isn't what we're referring to here as "Linux". If you want next time I can be very specific including the particular distro you're using. Or you can admit that I'm right and you can stop spamming the forums expecting Cockos to add Windows VST support in Linux.

An average Reaper user is someone who uses Windows. A somewhat less common Reaper user is someone who uses Mac. A far less common Reaper user is someone who uses Linux (a tiny percent) and that number isn't likely to increase much anytime soon.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 10:06 PM   #20
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

Sorry, if you feel misinterpreted.But I interpret an "average Computer user" as somebody who uses the hardware/software for a purpose of his choice, and (s)he never has the technical implications of the hardware or OS (+ OS-distribution) in mind.

(S)he chooses Android for it's capabilities and it's look and feel.

Likewise, (s)he chooses Reaper for it's capabilities and it's look and feel.

If (s)he is forced to use a certain hardware/OS to accomplish this, (s)he will do so.

And nowadays in most cases this will be a Mac or Windows PC.

But I feel - from an additional POV - there are strong reasons in favor of using Linux, be it on PC hardware and maybe in future on thingies like RasPi.
IMHO it would be a great plus, if the Reaper environment could support this.

-Michael (just dreaming)
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2020, 10:27 PM   #21
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

Reaper does support this. Use Wine, LinVST, etc.

Cockos will never add support for Windows VST in Reaper for Linux.

Also: most computer users choose Windows (and Mac) because they're easier to use, have lots of software available for them, and support for hardware from the manufacturer. Linux is not as easy to use (despite how much better it has become in the last decade), has less software for it (in terms of DAW software, for one), and has far less manufacturer support for hardware. If you choose Linux, you are choosing this reality. Anyone who doesn't realize that is misinformed.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank

Last edited by JamesPeters; 09-17-2020 at 10:33 PM.
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 05:39 AM   #22
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

I don't see why installing a subset of wine instead of it all would be of any particular benefit. It's mostly just a load of runtime libs that take up space on the hard disk. Any that aren't used won't slow it down, it will only occupy somewhere around 100mb of disk space.

There are some drawbacks in as far as it runs in a different context and the cpu cache might have flushed, threads aren't directly calling into the dll, rather they get syncronized with threads running on the wine side, etc. This can potentially make it more expensive cpu wise of running the plugins and also cause longer runtime latencies.

Still IMO it's amazing to see it working in real life, here we have an application running on one OS, loading plugins meant for another OS.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 06:17 AM   #23
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

Yep. A dedicated thing (I will not call it "bridge" again, as it of course might use a copletely different technology than the 32bit/64 Bit bridge), that is used by Reaper to load and execute VTS DLLs, might be a lot more efficient CPU-wise, not using additional audio/realtime threads (but supposedly a single thread for the Windows GUI.
-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 08:45 AM   #24
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Yep. A dedicated thing (I will not call it "bridge" again, as it of course might use a copletely different technology than the 32bit/64 Bit bridge), that is used by Reaper to load and execute VTS DLLs, might be a lot more efficient CPU-wise, not using additional audio/realtime threads (but supposedly a single thread for the Windows GUI.
-Michael
Well why stop at .dll files that were created exclusively for Windows. Lets add AU and AAX plugins that were created exclusively for Apple Macs! All that stuff should run on any computer, even the Commodore Amiga I have in the closet!!!

No matter how you word it, it will ALWAYS require emulation to run anything that is not native to whatever OS you are using, and the emulation, even if you take all but the necessary pieces away, is gonna run slower than if it was running on the OS it was intended to be used with.

Me personally, I bit the bullet and took the time to make the Windows plugins I want to use work, running in WINE and bridged by LinVST, so now I'm getting project after project done. I just checked and I have created *sixty one* projects in REAPER for Linux since switching over to Xubuntu two years ago.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 11:20 AM   #25
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Yep. A dedicated thing (I will not call it "bridge" again, as it of course might use a copletely different technology than the 32bit/64 Bit bridge), that is used by Reaper to load and execute VTS DLLs, might be a lot more efficient CPU-wise, not using additional audio/realtime threads (but supposedly a single thread for the Windows GUI.
-Michael
You talk about this as though you have some kind of idea that there might be a better way. Unless you know what that might be, I think you're just indulging in fantasy. These are two different operating systems you are talking about. I doubt anything will be better than what currently exists.

If you actually have an idea, something to share on a technical level that will help develop something new, then start developing it or share it with a developer. If you are just making guesses, that helps no one.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 12:03 PM   #26
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Yep. A dedicated thing (I will not call it "bridge" again, as it of course might use a copletely different technology than the 32bit/64 Bit bridge), that is used by Reaper to load and execute VTS DLLs, might be a lot more efficient CPU-wise, not using additional audio/realtime threads (but supposedly a single thread for the Windows GUI.
-Michael
The GUI isn't a big problem as long as it works, it doesn't have to be low latency.. The concern would be playing VST instrument and monitoring through FX at low latency.

Though I think there is a way to get rid of syncing separate threads, though it's tricky and would probably still be vulnerable to cache flushes.

Still modern hardware helps a lot!
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 12:19 PM   #27
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
The GUI isn't a big problem as long as it works, it doesn't have to be low latency.. The concern would be playing VST instrument and monitoring through FX at low latency.

Though I think there is a way to get rid of syncing separate threads, though it's tricky and would probably still be vulnerable to cache flushes.

Still modern hardware helps a lot!
Are you saying if I put Kontakt for Windows on a track, then follow it with Guitar Rig for Windows, followed by native Linux ToneLib and a native Linux EQ that there will be some kind of sync problem?

Hehe, I asked about that specific chain because I have <Ctrl><Alt><G> assigned to bring up REAPER with a project that has Kontakt's stock "Jazz Guitar" with a couple guitar sims and EQ. I use that for quick jamming and trying stuff I'm thinking in my head.

I've used that same configuration in a couple songs with tracks of other real and virtual instruments too, but have never had any issues. I monitor both my live jamming version and track template version for projects version at very low latency.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 12:21 PM   #28
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
No matter how you word it, it will ALWAYS require emulation to run anything that is not native to whatever OS you are using, and the emulation, even if you take all but the necessary pieces away, is gonna run slower than if it was running on the OS it was intended to be used with.
WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator!

In fact some calls are faster on wine than windows, AFAIK there are even games that run better than on windows. I think the main questions today are: does it work, is it a hassle to install, and what kind of execution latency does it have on the audio processing. There is also a lot of work being done on wine to make it faster and more complete, but mainly for running games rather than VST plugins, still we'll likely benefit too.

My biggest beef with LinVST is how long it takes to load a big project with a lot of VSTs.

Ideally software companies would also produce (at least) VST3 versions of their software. It's ironic that some are made with JUICE and would require little or no work to recompile for linux. Waves audio processing runs on linux natively for their soundgrid hardware..
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)

Last edited by Jack Winter; 09-18-2020 at 12:26 PM.
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 12:26 PM   #29
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
Are you saying if I put Kontakt for Windows on a track, then follow it with Guitar Rig for Windows, followed by native Linux ToneLib and a native Linux EQ that there will be some kind of sync problem?
No I don't mean syncing in that sense!

What I mean is that a reaper audio thread calls into the linux side of linvst, then the call has to be synchronized with the wine side of things. This won't introduce audio syncing problem, but it will increase the time it takes to calculate the audio, thus leading to potential audio dropouts.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 12:36 PM   #30
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
No I don't mean syncing in that sense!

What I mean is that a reaper audio thread calls into the linux side of linvst, then the call has to be synchronized with the wine side of things. This won't introduce audio syncing problem, but it will increase the time it takes to calculate the audio, thus leading to potential audio dropouts.
Ahh, got it! Even with my old 2009 i5 machine I never had dropouts while using my Windows VSTi plugins in Linux. I'm sure my new machine is even farther away from whatever that threshold is.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 01:07 PM   #31
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator!

In fact some calls are faster on wine than windows, AFAIK there are even games that run better than on windows. I think the main questions today are: does it work, is it a hassle to install, and what kind of execution latency does it have on the audio processing. There is also a lot of work being done on wine to make it faster and more complete, but mainly for running games rather than VST plugins, still we'll likely benefit too.
My kid is a gamer and runs mostly Windows games using Steam on Arch. Also hooked me up with "Dirt Rally for Linux" so I'd have something to tax my new machine with coz REAPER ain't doing it!

Turns out my video card is a dog and can only run the game with low detail rendering, but I figgered that would be the case. Does give me an excuse to buy a PCIe 4.0 video card though, since my new machine supports it.

Quote:
My biggest beef with LinVST is how long it takes to load a big project with a lot of VSTs.
What is a lot of VSTs to you? My test project with 11 Windows VSTi's just took about 7-8 seconds to load from scratch with none of it cached in memory. That was longer than most of my projects load time, but I usually only have 5-6 VSTi's in most projects.

Quote:
Ideally software companies would also produce (at least) VST3 versions of their software. It's ironic that some are made with JUICE and would require little or no work to recompile for linux. Waves audio processing runs on linux natively for their soundgrid hardware..
That blew me away when you said Superior is JUCE and could be compiled with little effort for Linux. I'd pay an upgrade price to Superior 3 if they included Linux support. As it is, I have Superior 2 working fine, so there is no incentive for me to upgrade to something that will not be native, and will be more hassle to install. I've bought hundreds of dollars of new native Linux audio plugins, but Kontakt and Superior there is no substitute in a native Linux VSTi.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 02:53 PM   #32
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
If you actually have an idea, something to share on a technical level ....
OK it's not much more than just the start of an idea, but given a rather straight forewared VST is a DLL that "realtime-wise" gets called with blocks of audio data (plus some midi with each block), and has the VST-Parameter interface, and outputs blocks of data with those calls, that just depend in the received blocks and some files loaded while initiating, I don't see why this could not work wrapped in a rather straight foreward Linux so - no threading involved. Next step would be considering file I/O while playing (Kontakt !)

Of course the GUI would need to use paradigms from Wine.
-Michael.
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2020, 03:46 PM   #33
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

"Paradigms" - you mean libraries?

Anyway maybe you should get on the github for Wine and/or LinVST.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 03:37 AM   #34
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 9,629
Default

IMHO, not really.

As a proof of concept it would be viable not to use Wine at all but just do a Linux VST -> Windows VST wrapper that can run a simple (selected or homebrew) Windows VST ignoring the GUI (like Reaper does when using the [UI] button.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 08:51 AM   #35
JamesPeters
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,212
Default

Do you have any idea how that could be done? In reality. If it's actually feasible. Or is this just a guess.
__________________
Using REAPER for Linux on Manjaro 20.1
Free multi-layered drum bank
JamesPeters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 09:26 AM   #36
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
What is a lot of VSTs to you? My test project with 11 Windows VSTi's just took about 7-8 seconds to load from scratch with none of it cached in memory. That was longer than most of my projects load time, but I usually only have 5-6 VSTi's in most projects.
Well I'm kind of thinking of projects that might have 30-40 tracks and then 4-5 plugins per track, so 100+ plugins.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 09:35 AM   #37
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
OK it's not much more than just the start of an idea, but given a rather straight forewared VST is a DLL that "realtime-wise" gets called with blocks of audio data (plus some midi with each block), and has the VST-Parameter interface, and outputs blocks of data with those calls, that just depend in the received blocks and some files loaded while initiating, I don't see why this could not work wrapped in a rather straight foreward Linux so - no threading involved.
Because you need to access data structures in wine. A Linux thread won't be known to wine and won't be able to access data properly. There is a workaround that we used in Wineasio/JACK. JACK calls a special function in Wineasio for it to create a thread in the wine context. A pointer to that thread is then passed back to JACK which uses it for the audio callback. Like that there is no need to sync threads as the thread created in the Wine context can access data both in the Linux and Wine contexts.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 09:58 AM   #38
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Well I'm kind of thinking of projects that might have 30-40 tracks and then 4-5 plugins per track, so 100+ plugins.
I'm guessing you are using a lot of Windows plugins that aren't instrument plugins then? I decided early in that I was going to replace as many of my Windows plugins with native Linux ones as possible, and all my audio plugins are now native Linux.

Windows instrument plugins though I couldn't replace like I was able to do with all my audio plugins. 75-100 plugins is fairly normal for my projects, but fewer than 10 of them will be Windows plugins. That reminds me, I need to buy some more U-he plugins, but I can't decide between Colour Copy which is very cool, or the Uhbik suite of 9 FX. Some of the stuff in Uhbik I'd never use. Wish Urs would sell those individually, coz I'd already have purchased the ones I want from that suite.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 01:54 PM   #39
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,859
Default

In fact I'm not really working on mixing at all at the moment. But I also replaced a lot of windows vsts with linux ones. Presswerk is really good, and there are others. The rational approach really is to replace as many as possible of your plugins with native ones.. Hurts to give up / restrict the use of plugins like fabfilter's though...

Still talking from the viewpoint of the user that would like to use a lot of windows vsts, they probably won't work as well as they do in windows.. There are some real drawbacks, but I suppose that is to be expected, and I truly find it a miracle that it's at all possible.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 02:42 PM   #40
Glennbo
Human being with feelings
 
Glennbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
In fact I'm not really working on mixing at all at the moment. But I also replaced a lot of windows vsts with linux ones. Presswerk is really good, and there are others. The rational approach really is to replace as many as possible of your plugins with native ones.. Hurts to give up / restrict the use of plugins like fabfilter's though...
I LOVE Presswerk, and would have never tried or purchased it if I kept using my Windows PSP Vintage Warmer plugin. Presswerk blows Vintage Warmer away IMHO, so I'm glad I felt like I needed to give up my Windows plugins and just go head first into Linux.

Besides, plugins do NOT make my music. I do!

Quote:
Still talking from the viewpoint of the user that would like to use a lot of windows vsts, they probably won't work as well as they do in windows.. There are some real drawbacks, but I suppose that is to be expected, and I truly find it a miracle that it's at all possible.
I could probably run pure Windows plugins and it wouldn't dog my machine to do it, but I've just gotten over being tethered to my Windows audio plugins. Instrument plugins is another thing though, as I've found very few impressive native Linux instrument plugs.

I remember listening to one of my songs after buying some Linux plugins and thinking that the OverTone DSP plate reverb sounded better on my snare than I ever got using SoundToys Little Plate. I do like Little Plate, but on the crack of my snare drum, OverTone's verb sounded like what I've heard on some of my favorite records.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Glennbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.