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Old 07-01-2020, 07:09 AM   #41
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"

I'd VERY STRONGLY RECOMMEND anyone running iLok to get an external drive and make a backup image of your system drive ASAP "
Is this a better approach than a clone?
Thanks
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:42 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBlue View Post
"

I'd VERY STRONGLY RECOMMEND anyone running iLok to get an external drive and make a backup image of your system drive ASAP "
Is this a better approach than a clone?
Thanks
They are kind of similar. This should answer your question:

https://blog.storagecraft.com/disk-i...-disk-cloning/


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Glad you are back up and running Retro Audio Enthusiast. What a nightmare though!!
Things like this are the primary reason I've avoided iLok to date. There are some excellent plugins I'd love to use but they also use iLok so no go for me.
Thanks Dave. It was like having my home burned to the ground and having to rebuild it. Seriously, anyone who thinks they don't need to backup to an image needs to rethink.

You lose every single program, all drivers, all personal files, documents, downloads, programs, plugins and then have to find serials and authorizations from years ago, losing all passwords saved on the computer, resetting all passwords, reinstalling all programs (hope you saved all those custom presets), all web bookmarks....the list goes on. I'm at home and not working now and I'm still at it after a week.

Backup with an image folks. Buy a separate external drive and do it.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:21 PM   #43
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Hi Retro,
As an iLok user I appreciate the heads up too, though no Sonivox plugins have appealed yet. This couldn't be more serious, I wasn't aware that iLok was so invasive that it could do this in the wrong hands.
You would have thought iLok programmers should have insured that this sort of thing was impossible to do with their software, though it sounds like it is Sonivox's fault.

Last edited by Softsynth; 07-01-2020 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Smartphone typos..
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Old 07-01-2020, 03:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Hi Retro,
As an iLok user I appreciate the heads up too, though no Sonivox plugins have appealed yet. This couldn't be more serious, I wasn't aware that iLok was so invasive that it could do this in the wrong hands.
You would have thought iLok programmers should have insured that this sort of thing was impossible to do with their software, though it sounds like it is Sonivox's fault.
I remember seeing people lose their whole drives to tpkd.sys when Window 98 changed the HDD communication to a faster method. It smoked DAWs just as the original post in this thread describes.
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Old 07-01-2020, 05:13 PM   #45
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Ha, I misread "drives" for "lives" there. It sounds like a speech from a Terminator movie or something.
EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
*I remember seeing people lose their whole lives to tpkd.sys when Window 98 changed the HDD communication to a faster method. It smoked DAWs just as the original post in this thread describes.*
The iLok service became self aware in June 2020, blue screens of death across the planet. This is the war on the machines..
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Ha, I misread "drives" for "lives" there. It sounds like a speech from a Terminator movie or something.
EDIT:
PACE is kinda like the Terminator. I forgot that but then remembered it again.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:12 AM   #47
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One comment on iLoks, real and software. I have been using them and CMSticks for years. I would never ever go back to a real CMstick & am having to use the virtual one with Antares products right now, with some trepidation.
As far aws the iLok range is concerned, it is a bit like Waves. Since both Waves and iLok cleaned up there act a while back, both only seem to have issues with third parties using legacy versions of their software, which cant really be blamed on either of these manufacturers.
From a customer viewpoint, this is of course immaterial & the blame can still be lain at the feet of Waves &/or iLok, but from my own experience, I have had effectively NO issues with either one since I switched to their latest systems and of course cleared all the older crap off my computers.

So once again I would re-state that from my own personal experience the older Sonivox stuff, especially the DVI series, which they do now appear to have retired, are going to be both suspect AND un-fixable by the current owners. And no, despite apologetic emails from them I never got the offer of a refund on my upright bass.
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:14 AM   #48
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Just to mention: It's now the fifth day since I sent Sonivox a support request and I've received no reply.

They promise to respond within 72 hours on weekdays. I sent the request Sunday 28th at around 15:00 GMT. It's now Friday 3rd of July.
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Old 07-03-2020, 03:06 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Retro Audio Enthusiast View Post
Just to mention: It's now the fifth day since I sent Sonivox a support request and I've received no reply.

They promise to respond within 72 hours on weekdays. I sent the request Sunday 28th at around 15:00 GMT. It's now Friday 3rd of July.
I'm now even less interested in their output.
It sounds like they don't have a solution.
I assume you checked your spam folder?
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Old 07-03-2020, 04:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
I'm now even less interested in their output.
It sounds like they don't have a solution.
I assume you checked your spam folder?
Yes, always.
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Old 07-04-2020, 12:52 AM   #51
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*sigh* I should have said how long it took me to finally get a response from InMusic (owners of the Sonivox stuff now) as well as telling you how completely useless that response and all further discussion between us was.

To clarify this, InMusic are basically box-shifter equivalents in the plugin world & dont appear to have anything much in the way of actual support for many of the legacy plugs like Sonivox stuff that they have bought. One can at least hope that anything new that is available from "Sonivox" aka InMusic is actually coded by someone in theor employ or on contract. I voted with my feet & already dumped everything I own from Sonivox. Shame, as I used their stuff a lot.
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Old 07-10-2020, 01:30 AM   #52
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Twelve days later and still no response from Sonivox.


Here's what I sent to Plugin Boutique:


Hello.

If you have not already been notified of this, then I must tell you there is a serious issue with your Sonivox VocalizerPro 1.3. This issue may also affect other Sonivox software.

The iLok software that is inside the plugin installer is five years old and has catastrophic incompatibility with the latest Windows 10 build.

After installation and reboot, it will force a bluescreen by causing an unrecoverable boot failure with the stopcode error: 'page fault in a nonpaged area' with tpkd.sys failing.

The problem can only be recovered by wiping the drive and reinstalling Windows completely or restoring from a recovery image. Windows Repair does not work.

This issue has affected me twice. I have lost over a week of downtime and I had to reinstall Gigabytes of data and apps over this.

I contacted both iLok and Sonivox to notify them.

Ilok replied (I include their reply below) but after over a week, Sonivox has still not replied.

Considering the loss and damage I have suffered and also the potential to cause others who use their products, this is completely unacceptable.

My advice is to immediately withdraw all Sonivox plugins from download until the issue is resolved.

I have no confidence in installing anything by Sonivox and as such, I hope you will consider removing the plugin from my account and either refunding my money or replacing it with another vocoder of similar quality.

Thank you,
xxxx xxxxxxx





Their reply:

Quote:
Hi there!

Thanks for contacting us.

We have received your request (xxxxxx) which will be reviewed by our Customer Care team shortly.

In the meantime, we recommend checking out our Help Centre, where you may be able to find the solution to your problem more quickly.

Please note that we are currently experiencing a huge increase in customer requests, so please be aware that it may take several days for you to receive a reply from our Customer Care team. However, please rest assured that we are working as hard as we can to get to your request as soon as possible!
I wonder why the huge increase?
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Old 07-10-2020, 10:34 PM   #53
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Unrelated, but the OSS Surge Synthesizer does vocoding.
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Old 07-11-2020, 04:52 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by rafa1981 View Post
Unrelated, but the OSS Surge Synthesizer does vocoding.
Thanks for this Rafa -it works very well. Love the synth.
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Old 07-14-2020, 08:09 AM   #55
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Reply from Plugin Boutique:



Thomas (Plugin Boutique)

13 Jul 2020, 12:24 BST


Hi xxxx,

I hope you are well and many thanks for your message and patience.

Sorry for not being able to reply to you sooner and to hear of this issue. As you purchased your Vocalizer Pro licence from us back on October 25th 2016, unfortunately, we are no longer able to refund you for this but I have contacted SONiVOX to chase the status of your support request with them and to obtain further details on this software bug in question.

As soon as I hear back from SONiVOX, I will notify you and let me know if you also hear from them or need anything else in the meantime.

Apologies for the inconvenience caused.

Kind Regards,

Thomas | Plugin Boutique
Customer Care



14 Jul 2020, 16:07 BST

Hi Thomas and thank you for replying.

Is this issue fixed? I am astonished that all Sonivox plugins are still available for purchase on your website and some are on sale.

I am extremely concerned about this issue because anyone with the latest Windows 10 build that buys and installs Vocaliser Pro (and maybe other Sonivox products) is going to have a catastrophic boot failure of Windows 10 that could result in fatal damage of operating systems, loss of precious personal data, loss of time and expense in repair.

Since I have notified Plugin Boutique (you) of this issue, with proof of the issue included from iLok themselves, the fact you have not stated the issue is fixed, taken down the plugins from your site or at least provided any warning is incredibly irresponsible and will certainly result in damage of customers computers, loss of data and time.

I strongly urge you as soon as possible to please escalate this issue immediately with your superiors to ensure that no one will suffer further damage regarding this issue and please reply back to me with the steps Plugin Boutique has taken/will be taking.

Please note, I am posting this correspondence on public forums and social media.

As regards to my refund, it is within the reasonable discretion of Plugin Boutique to do this. Due to the apparent inaction taken so far and my loss of trust in Sonivox, I do not wish to use any Sonivox plugin, so please deactivate my iLok licence for Sonivox Vocalizer Pro and refund me the cost of the original order. Alternatively, you could replace it in my account with a like-for-like plugin Vocoder.

Many Thanks.

xxxx
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Old 07-14-2020, 08:23 AM   #56
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Note to self: Never mess with this guy. ^
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:11 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
Note to self: Never mess with this guy. ^

I thought I was being firm and honest but polite!

I'm trying to prevent other people going through hell and Plugin Boutique has still got that plugin up for sale.

Anyone who installs it using the latest Windows 10 it *will* have a catastrophic boot failure, and if they aren't tech-savvy, *will* either have to get it repaired and pay money for someone to figure out what the issue is, or hope they have a full image or clone backup to restore, or reinstall Windows and lose everything on their drive.

This might mean someone or a family losing many years of precious photos, messages, documents, work, etc.

The consequences are awful and nothing is apparently being done.
A vendor knowingly having faulty software for sale is pretty bad and I was *absolutely clear* about the risk and consequences in my original message.
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Old 07-14-2020, 10:22 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Retro Audio Enthusiast View Post
I thought I was being firm and honest but polite!
You were.... and those are the people I don't mess with!
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Old 07-14-2020, 02:20 PM   #59
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Yep you are going through exactly the same run-around that they gave me the same speil about why I could not have a refund.

Maybe we should start a "Don`t buy Sonivox products " website?

Incidentally, I was told that the reason they could not fix my problem was because they were no longer in contact with Sonivox`s coders.... They did however offer to let me have one of the other Sonivox plugin instruments free, but I had already bought the only two of their instruments I liked. And one fo them was my dead on of course.
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Old 07-15-2020, 11:04 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Yep you are going through exactly the same run-around that they gave me the same speil about why I could not have a refund.
I hope I fare better.

Another reply. Apparently they say the issue is only limited to me. I'm assuming because no one else has reported it. iLok's reply to me however confirms that the latest build of Windows does have this issue, so I'm not going to dispute their claim.




Quote:
Thomas (Plugin Boutique)

15 Jul 2020, 16:00 BST
Hi xxxx,

I hope you are well and many thanks for your reply and patience.

I am still yet to hear back from SONiVOX regarding this and as this particular matter is an isolated issue which appears to be affecting yourself and none of our other customers and after speaking with my manager, we'll need to receive further information from the SONiVOX directly as to how we go about resolving this bug as it is ultimately their responsibility to investigate this further and resolve the issue on their side.

I have chased the status of your support request up with SONiVOX and requested for them to reply back to you accordingly with me on CC' and as soon as I hear back from them, I will notify you.

Let me know if you need anything else in the meantime.

Kind Regards,

Thomas | Plugin Boutique
Customer Care

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Thomas. I take it you think I'm the only one with the issue because no one else has reported the same issue?

Regards,

xxxx


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Old 07-15-2020, 02:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by blackiyto View Post
The only way this sort of shit will ever stop is if the geek F's are held to account. They just get away with way too much, just washing their hands of problems. The worst kind of human being is a geek.
Sounds like you're an advocate for geekocide!
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Old 07-16-2020, 04:36 AM   #62
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They just can't understand that this is going to ****k up other people's PC's.



15 Jul 2020, 19:05 BST

Thank you Thomas. I take it you think I'm the only one with the issue because no one else has reported the same issue?

Regards,

xxx



Quote:
16 Jul 2020, 11:50 BST
Hi xxxx,

Pleasure and thanks for your reply.

I am only basing my presumption on us not having personally received any other reports of this issue from our internal customer base, but as soon as I receive more information from SONiVOX regarding this, I will be able to gain more knowledge on how many users are being affected outside of our company.

Kind Regards,

Thomas | Plugin Boutique
Customer Care

16 Jul 2020, 12:28 BST

Thanks Thomas. I'm seriously concerned that the issue will affect other users. iLok have confirmed there is definitely an issue here and I did notify you of this earlier. I'm enclosing a screenshot of the correspondence I received from them. One of the reasons that you may have not received any other notices of incidents is because anyone who suffers the same catastrophic failure of Windows wont necessarily know what the problem is that caused it and therefore won't be able to notify you.

Regardless of this, I think it would be prudent and reasonable for you to post some kind of warning on your site or in a mail-out until Sonivox has notified you and iLok that the issue is resolved.

Regards,

xxxx

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Old 07-16-2020, 04:54 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Audio Enthusiast View Post
One of the reasons that you may have not received any other notices of incidents is because anyone who suffers the same catastrophic failure of Windows wont necessarily know what the problem is that caused it and therefore won't be able to notify you.
Or, a user might have a pretty good idea what crippled the one and only computer which they have regular access too.... but how is that user going to send an email now?
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Old 07-16-2020, 05:24 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
Or, a user might have a pretty good idea what crippled the one and only computer which they have regular access too.... but how is that user going to send an email now?
From my own experience I had to:


1. Experience the crash and TPkd.sys failure several times on reboot.

2. Allow Windows Repair to try to fix it several times (it failed all times).

3. Figure out what TPkd.sys is by Googling it on my tablet and searching for issues/fixes.

4. Try to Safe Boot several times to try to uninstall PACE and remove TPkd.sys. It failed each time. Windows wouldn't power-on the keyboard and I couldn't get past the screen needed to enter safe mode.

5. Putting a shout-out on Facebook for anyone to lend me a Windows 10 Pro recovery disk then driving round to their house to pick it up.

5. Google how to fix the non-powering on keyboard then going into CMD via the recovery disk and manually typing in the fix with lines of code then being denied access.

6. Trying to fix the denial of access via CMD by manually typing in lines of code and failing because a particular Windows Library was not installed on my PC then figuring out it was impossible to install the library.

7. Reinstalling Windows 7, then having it update to Windows 10 Pro, having to authorize it by phone and losing all my data on my C disk.

8. Recovering all my passwords (literally hundreds) including mail accounts, forums, banking, home utilities etc.

9. Having to re download all software installers and apps.

10. Having to physically compose and write about a dozen emails to individual vendors requesting PACE resets on my plugins and in some cases provide physical screenshots of the original order receipts.

11. Reinstall every plugin and VSTi.

12. Reinstalling every PACE plugin successfully.

13. Reinstalling the Sonivox plugin last and then experiencing the crash again (because I didn't know which plugin caused it or in fact if it was a single plugin or combination of factors)

14. Having to perform steps 7 to 12 over again with full reinstallation of Windows.

15. Write to iLok and wait for a response.

17. Write to Plugin Boutique and Sonivox after correctly identifying the issue.

16. Try to locate my entire C Drive Documents Photos and Documents collection on various backup media up to 20 years old, containing precious digitized photos of my late mother and father and photos of family and friends.

17. Perform other software authorizations and in some cases having to dig deep on forums and sites with older software for updates and add-ons.

18. Realising I lost all my software presets built up over the years (Video and photo apps) game saves and everything else in my Documents folder.


Needless to say, I now have a disk image and regularly back up everything, although in 20 years, I never had to or experienced anything like this before.


.
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Old 07-23-2020, 08:49 AM   #65
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I finally got a refund for the plugin but as far as I know the issue with Sonivox having a bad software inside the installer hasn't been fixed and it's still on sale.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:20 AM   #66
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Well done you! You`re apparently more persistent than I am.
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Old 07-24-2020, 11:16 AM   #67
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Well done you! You`re apparently more persistent than I am.
Thanks! Lucky it was escaled to a higher level.
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Old 07-24-2020, 11:47 AM   #68
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Was that luck, or was it because you told them that you were discussing the issue very publicly?

They're probably hoping you'll stop doing that.
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Old 07-25-2020, 02:08 AM   #69
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The first thing I always check before buying a plugin is if it requires iLock. If it does, I avoid it like the plague. Except of course those who offer iLock plus non iLock authorizations (iZotope, Melodyne). No matter how good they might be, there are always good alternatives to any iLocked plugin out there. Same thing with Waves. I bought a bundle plus a few individual plugs from them many years ago. Their weird authorization system messed up my whole system. Never touched those plugs again. I don't even remember if I bothered to contact their support. I prefer losing the few hundred dollars I paid for them and find some replacements. The time / stress / anger wasted troubleshooting those problems is worth waaaay more than a few hundred bucks.
Nowadays I only buy from companies that have the simplest activation systems, or even no activation at all, like Klanghelm for example, who happen to make some of the best plugs out there for ridiculously low prices.
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Old 07-25-2020, 02:32 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastrio View Post
The first thing I always check before buying a plugin is if it requires iLock. If it does, I avoid it like the plague. Except of course those who offer iLock plus non iLock authorizations (iZotope, Melodyne). No matter how good they might be, there are always good alternatives to any iLocked plugin out there. Same thing with Waves. I bought a bundle plus a few individual plugs from them many years ago. Their weird authorization system messed up my whole system. Never touched those plugs again. I don't even remember if I bothered to contact their support. I prefer losing the few hundred dollars I paid for them and find some replacements. The time / stress / anger wasted troubleshooting those problems is worth waaaay more than a few hundred bucks.
Nowadays I only buy from companies that have the simplest activation systems, or even no activation at all, like Klanghelm for example, who happen to make some of the best plugs out there for ridiculously low prices.
The OP's single developer specific problem and your own experience appears to be far from the norm, and if you think about it that has to be the case, otherwise the significant number of developers using this system (presumably to stay in business) would've gone to the wall.
We can respect your decision but far too many decent plugin developers depend on iLok.
Certainly from a customer position there are only apparent negatives. We cannot see what wouldn't get developed otherwise, or which plugin developers would feel the need to charge far more for their plugins otherwise.
As for low prices most of the iLok plugins I have were sales deals that made them similar or cheaper than Klanghelm (and I agree he has sensibly prices).
Certainly I can respect someone avoiding the system when they got their fingers burned.
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Old 07-26-2020, 03:55 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Certainly I can respect someone avoiding the system when they got their fingers burned.
I avoided iLok for most of my digital life until they apparently solved the issues they had at the start (early 2000's) when Craig Anderton (I think, or the other guy) wrote a famous article on how it destroyed his computer. It used to bypass your OS and write itself directly to a sector of your hard disk causing all sorts of weird and wonderful crashes, reboots and failures.
I guess they fixed it, until Sonivox screwed things up again.

I wouldn't buy an iLok USB key or use the cloud but I don't mind using the software authorizer.

The issue that I wrote this post about is solely the fault of Sonivox, because they bootstrapped a five-year-old version of iLok that Windows 10 doesn't like (as in 'fatally') into their installer that then kills your PC.


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Originally Posted by Fex View Post
Was that luck, or was it because you told them that you were discussing the issue very publicly?

They're probably hoping you'll stop doing that.

I wrote about this openly and totally without any form of vindictiveness or malice to hopefully save other people from going through what I went through. A refund wasn't the main thing I wanted. I wanted them to pull that plugin from sale until the issue got resolved or at least put a warning on their site so people could be vigilant and take steps to recover their PC if the worst happened. I used to work in executive marketing for a software company and I would have done that straight away.
Decisive action goes a long way to instil customer loyalty and trust, because it shows you are looking out for them and care about their safety of their DAWs, which I do.
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Old 07-26-2020, 04:08 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Retro Audio Enthusiast View Post
I wrote about this openly and totally without any form of vindictiveness or malice to hopefully save other people from going through what I went through.
I got that, and didn't intend any criticism. I think we should name and shame vociferously when so much is at stake.

I have never owned an iLok. I never will.
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Old 07-26-2020, 04:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Retro Audio Enthusiast View Post

The issue that I wrote this post about is solely the fault of Sonivox, because they bootstrapped a five-year-old version of iLok that Windows 10 doesn't like (as in 'fatally') into their installer that then kills your PC.





I wrote about this openly and totally without any form of vindictiveness or malice to hopefully save other people from going through what I went through. A refund wasn't the main thing I wanted. I wanted them to pull that plugin from sale until the issue got resolved or at least put a warning on their site so people could be vigilant and take steps to recover their PC if the worst happened. I used to work in executive marketing for a software company and I would have done that straight away.
Decisive action goes a long way to instil customer loyalty and trust, because it shows you are looking out for them and care about their safety of their DAWs, which I do.

Really the developer deserves to be sued for this if they don't correct it immediately as it could cause untold distress, even damage livelihoods, which at the this particular point in time would be doubly bad.
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Old 07-26-2020, 02:39 PM   #74
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So back in 2017 I had a motherboard failure that caused a reinstall of everything. I have several plugins that use iLok including Sonivox Orchestral Companion Strings. I still had 1 remaining activation and have been using that. Never heard a thing until yesterday. Seems Sonivox have approved my request!!! Partial info from the email I received from iLok:

"Sonivox L.P. has approved an activation reset request for you. Please see the details below.
Computer Record Created:2016-07-26, 11:54, (-0700)
Computer Last Seen: 2017-10-03, 14:07, (-0700)"

Almost 3 years. I had completely given up.
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Old 07-27-2020, 02:26 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Fex View Post
I got that, and didn't intend any criticism.
I know and I know :P


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Almost 3 years. I had completely given up.
<<TS>>
If Sonivox were a news service they'd be reporting that Buddy Holly's plane just went down.
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:17 AM   #76
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Unfortunately copy protection mechanisms that rely on device drivers are always going to be somewhat fragile to future Windows changes.
We see this very often with anti-virus software which routinely experiences issues with Windows updates, due to intrusive drivers that are often poorly coded.

As another poster has recommended, I have also for many years simply avoided any software that requires any form of dongle or driver-based protection. With the huge amount of competition and choice in the market, there's almost always a product with reasonable licensing e.g challenge/response, that will work. Of course sometimes it's hard to find out in advance how the product is licensed, which can be frustrating.

If customers started boycotting products that insisted on intrusive licensing, vendors would be forced to review their practices.

I find it fascinating that Reaper's extremely permissive licensing doesn't seem to have hurt it commercially. Piracy is always going to be an issue but the more paranoid vendors get about it, the more determined the pirates are to get round this just for the intellectual challenge. With the ever-increasing rise of malware, I'd have thought most halfway-sensible people simply wouldn't take the risk these days with 'cracked' copies anyway, so exactly how much revenue is lost via piracy is debateable.
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