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02-01-2018, 07:34 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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Switching articulations (Orchestral Template with VEP)
Hi everyone,
sorry for the double post but I thought my thread would better belong to this forum.
I am re-building (and improving) my Cubase orchestral template in Reaper in order to test it in a real world situation (and I am already seeing how far I can go!)
My samples are on a slave machine, hosted in Vienna Ensemble Pro. Reaper on the main machine.
I have set it up like this.
Tracks containing Vienna Ensemble Pro and tracks sending MIDI messages trough MIDI busses to the respective VEP tracks.
For example (Spitfire Chamber Strings):
MIDI send 1/1 to VEP track = Vlns 1 leg
MIDI send 1/2 to VEP track = Vlns 1 long
MIDI send 1/3 to VEP track = Vlns 1 trem
and so on
the short articulations are on Port 2, so I use MIDI send 2/1, 2/2 etc.
and then Vlns 2 Port 3-4
Vle Port 5-6
Vc 7-8
Cb 9-10
The way I'd like it to be set up is to keep each Kontakt patch on the slaved VEP on a separate MIDI channel (in order to play it just on a track by itself, if I need) but at the same time to be able to trigger all articulations from a couple of tracks (Vlns 1 long, Vlns 1 short, etc.), sending CC's values from a controller.
Am I set it up right? It works pretty good for me this way.
My question is:
how can I transform CC's to MIDI channels and send them to the appropriate MIDI busses of my setup? or send CC's to the busses and have them channelized on the right MIDi busses of the VEP vst track?
I have tried the MIDI channelizer plugin but I suspect I am not making it work properly with this setup and even I'd say I am not sure if it would work in this scenario. Is this the right route? Anyone can help?
Thanks!
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02-01-2018, 01:32 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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I have a question.
There are two general ways of working with sample libraries - a) a track for each articulation and b) a keyswitched track for each instrument. You seem to be trying to do both at the same time. Why?
How you want to work is completely up to you of course. But why stack up VSTi slots with individual artics if you're just going to want to effectively keyswitch between them in-DAW anyway?
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02-01-2018, 06:04 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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maybe a thought... my kid [adult kid] is doing a massive orchestra template using kontakt and spitfire also...
after trying various ways 'we', he, decided to have one instance of kontakt on a given track and to load into that 16 articulations...
this is then done again on another track with another 16 artic's, and yet again on a third
this is because kontakt in his case has some limits to the midi inputs, namely 16...
then he makes 16 midi tracks sending to each of those Kontakt tracks...
each of those is named for the particular articulation....
he is composing in Sibelius and bringing the tracks into reaper for orchestration sounds...
this avoids CC's for articualtion and also key switches for them...
it is a bit of work to create but so far seems worth the effort and of course once done and saved as both various track templates and combined into project templates it will be sweet to have.
Fairly massive projects though when you consider strings, winds, brass and percussion
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02-02-2018, 02:54 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London (UK)
Posts: 412
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Hi Murrthecat! And welcome to the forum :-)
I'm sorry I can't be helpful to your request because I don't have VEP or a slave (I do everything in the box) and I've never used MIDI sends, but I use MIDI Channeliser daily and I have great results with it, it works perfectly and allows me to direct the incoming signal (from my midi keyboard) towards the desired channel inside of kontakt.
I'm sure someone (some VEP user) will be able to chime in and help you out with your specific request.
Can any VEP guru give him some help?
Thanks!
All the best
-t
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02-02-2018, 03:29 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
maybe a thought... my kid [adult kid] is doing a massive orchestra template using kontakt and spitfire also...
after trying various ways 'we', he, decided to have one instance of kontakt on a given track and to load into that 16 articulations...
this is then done again on another track with another 16 artic's, and yet again on a third
this is because kontakt in his case has some limits to the midi inputs, namely 16...
then he makes 16 midi tracks sending to each of those Kontakt tracks...
each of those is named for the particular articulation....
he is composing in Sibelius and bringing the tracks into reaper for orchestration sounds...
this avoids CC's for articualtion and also key switches for them...
it is a bit of work to create but so far seems worth the effort and of course once done and saved as both various track templates and combined into project templates it will be sweet to have.
Fairly massive projects though when you consider strings, winds, brass and percussion
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That's a perfectly reasonable way of working but it can get nightmarish to read the "score" if every instrument/section has separate MIDI tracks for up to a dozen articulations. It's a matter of screen real estate. Of course you can use collapsed folders, but then the parent doesn't display what's going on within. (Or if there's a way to "ghost" all the child tracks in the parent display, I'd love to know about it.)
It's a matter of taste and preference, of course.
Some people believe it allows more realism, and it certainly does present possibilities - eg you can layer a marcato attack on a generic long. It's a bit "handle with care" though, because for that moment of the attack, you've got twice the number of instruments playing. Orchestral density (rather different to volume) is always a problem with layering.
Also depends on the project. For a fully scored per-instrument orchestral project, I'd generally go with the KS approach. Personally, I don't have a problem with keyswitching - it's actually easier to set up MIDI note name maps than route hundreds of individual tracks. You just tick in a little blip for pizz or stacc in the MIDI editor as you would write them on a score.
Of course, you do have the problem of the VSTi occasionally still pizzing when it should be arcoing if you start playback from a certain point. It's a trade off.
Also, on the big view (a kind of collapsed blobby MIDI version of a conductor score) I don't really need to know at a glance that the violas are sul tasto or sticking their bows in their ears and playing with their teeth - I just need to see when they're playing. Then I can zoom in when I need to.
Anyway, I'd be interested to see what your lad comes up with. I'm thinking of asking the powers that be round here to set up a subforum called "MIDI mockers", where we few weirdos can swap templates and discuss ccs and library specific stuff to our hearts' content.
I think that would be good. REAPER is a perfectly good environment for this kind of work, it just takes a lot of setting up and so few people do it that you really have to hit it on your own.
One of my templates has REAPER pretty much pretending to be DP. Or at least, my version of DP.
PS I work in Sib first too. You might want to mention Wallander's NotePerformer to your son. It's the best playback engine I've yet found for classical stuff in Sib, before I transfer the result over. My review linked.
https://jasonlyonjazz.wordpress.com/.../note-perfect/
PPS Tell him not to go mad with things like Bartok pizz and col legno. They're overused in MIDIland and rarely used in the real world. When you do hear them, it's almost always a mockup - if you had a Guarnieri and a Dorfler bow would you treat them like that?
It's not uncommon for pro violinists to use a student cheapo when the programme includes Mars...
Last edited by Jason Lyon; 02-02-2018 at 03:38 AM.
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02-02-2018, 03:54 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Posts: 223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon
I'm thinking of asking the powers that be round here to set up a subforum called "MIDI mockers", where we few weirdos can swap templates and discuss ccs and library specific stuff to our hearts' content.
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Good Idea.
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02-02-2018, 06:29 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon
I have a question.
There are two general ways of working with sample libraries - a) a track for each articulation and b) a keyswitched track for each instrument. You seem to be trying to do both at the same time. Why?
How you want to work is completely up to you of course. But why stack up VSTi slots with individual artics if you're just going to want to effectively keyswitch between them in-DAW anyway?
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Hi Jason,
exactly, I'd like to be able to use keyswitching or single tracks at my convenience. I keep the two possibilities open to me in the same template for various reasons (like layering, sketching on one track, composing the old-school-way on different single-articulation tracks, keyswitching if I am playing a solo, sound design and so on). It depends on the writing and the project, I would say, but in this template I want to keep both approaches at hand.
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02-02-2018, 06:35 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusitala
Hi Murrthecat! And welcome to the forum :-)
I'm sorry I can't be helpful to your request because I don't have VEP or a slave (I do everything in the box) and I've never used MIDI sends, but I use MIDI Channeliser daily and I have great results with it, it works perfectly and allows me to direct the incoming signal (from my midi keyboard) towards the desired channel inside of kontakt.
I'm sure someone (some VEP user) will be able to chime in and help you out with your specific request.
Can any VEP guru give him some help?
Thanks!
All the best
-t
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Thank you, Tusitala.
I think MIDI Channelizer might work for me, but I struggle to find documentation about how it works and how to edit it, especially for my setup with MIDI sends.
Looking forward to speaking with the VEP gurus here :-)
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02-02-2018, 07:42 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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Nice Jason... and thanks for taking the time to reply as you did
I know he did try that sound maker for Sib and did not love it...
I am going to put him in touch with you because while technically I'm OK with all this, musically it is way over my head... but not his...
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02-02-2018, 10:37 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
Nice Jason... and thanks for taking the time to reply as you did
I know he did try that sound maker for Sib and did not love it...
I am going to put him in touch with you because while technically I'm OK with all this, musically it is way over my head... but not his...
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I'd be happy to help him out, if I can and time permitting. Hey, he might know more than I do already...
He can contact me via the blog.
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02-02-2018, 10:43 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murrthecat
Hi Jason,
exactly, I'd like to be able to use keyswitching or single tracks at my convenience. I keep the two possibilities open to me in the same template for various reasons (like layering, sketching on one track, composing the old-school-way on different single-articulation tracks, keyswitching if I am playing a solo, sound design and so on). It depends on the writing and the project, I would say, but in this template I want to keep both approaches at hand.
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Why not add an extra track for each instrument and hook it up to a KS patch. So you'd wind up with eg "Violin I (legato)", "Violin I (staccato)", etc etc..., "Violin I KS".
The KS patches in most libraries contain the same samples as the individual artic breakouts, so it should sound the same.
Easier, I'd have thought, than trying to map things with channelisers and stuff.
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02-02-2018, 10:52 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon
Why not add an extra track for each instrument and hook it up to a KS patch. So you'd wind up with eg "Violin I (legato)", "Violin I (staccato)", etc etc..., "Violin I KS".
The KS patches in most libraries contain the same samples as the individual artic breakouts, so it should sound the same.
Easier, I'd have thought, than trying to map things with channelisers and stuff.
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Very good advice, thank you and this is exactly the way I have been doing it in Cubase with Expression maps.
If I go this route then, I'd like to use something like Expression Maps in Reaper, to make all the KS equal across different libraries, customize them and make them easier to see and edit in the MIDI editor.
And then (a matter for another thread) I'd like to replicate the visibility macros I have set up in Cubase, which I find very helpful in highlighting different sections or groups of instruments, given the high number of single-art tracks.
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02-03-2018, 12:55 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Not sure about mapping KSes, but you could prepare MIDI note name map files like the attached ones. You could adapt mine to your libraries - the instrument ranges should be the same, you'll just need to relabel the keyswitch trigger notes. (Percussion will need redoing though - all libraries map those differently.)
Put the files in Users > Yourname > AppData > Roaming > REAPER > MIDINoteNames. What I do is have a little one-beat MIDI item in the preroll bar on each instrument track and load the MIDI maps into them - they will stick for any other MIDI items you record on those tracks. These preroll blips are also useful to send setup MIDI info to the VSTis. The preroll blips and MIDI note names will save as part of a template as well., so you'll only need to do it once.
You also open the MIDI editor and select View > Show hide note rows > Hide unused and unnamed note rows. Then the only notes that will display on the piano roll are the ones in range and the keyswitches.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffxkx8slpf...0Maps.zip?dl=0
Last edited by Jason Lyon; 02-03-2018 at 08:26 AM.
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02-03-2018, 01:45 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Further:
I'm not sure about what you call Expression Mapping in REAPER. Maybe someone will wander by and suggest something.
But keyswitches can be reassigned in Kontakt (full version).
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02-03-2018, 02:30 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon
Further:
I'm not sure about what you call Expression Mapping in REAPER. Maybe someone will wander by and suggest something.
But keyswitches can be reassigned in Kontakt (full version).
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Expression Maps is a Cubase feature, Reaper doesn't have a native one (yet), as far as I know. It's quite an easy way to customize KS and see them in the editor as musical terms. Besides, they are chased by the midi track, so they still play even if you haven't played the ks note before.
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02-03-2018, 02:46 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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And thank you very much for your note name map. I'll try it and let you know the results.
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02-03-2018, 03:13 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murrthecat
Expression Maps is a Cubase feature, Reaper doesn't have a native one (yet), as far as I know. It's quite an easy way to customize KS and see them in the editor as musical terms. Besides, they are chased by the midi track, so they still play even if you haven't played the ks note before.
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You could check out this:
http://reaticulate.com/
It looks very promising, but I haven't yet had time to investigate it.
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02-03-2018, 08:39 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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murr...
Found a couple of errors in the note name files. If you plan to use them, I've changed the download link to correct the problems.
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02-03-2018, 10:55 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon
You could check out this:
http://reaticulate.com/
It looks very promising, but I haven't yet had time to investigate it.
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Yes, that's the one I am trying, thank you.
And thanks for the correction, too!
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11-17-2018, 08:28 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 258
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Very interesting thread!
I too am an orchestral composer struggling with many of the same (overwhelming) options.
Do I use keyswitches or individual articulations?
DO I use in the box or via Vienna?
When I need to know what keyswitch to press, and I'm using Vienna how the HECK do I find it without sifting thru RemoteDesktop>>Vienna>>CorrectInstance>>CorrectKon takt?
What's the best way to do my ROUTING versus track and folder grouping? Do I keep my Vienna instance plugins all grouped together? Or do I make all the MIDI tracks CHILDREN of each Vienna instance?
How can I manage articulations in Reaper?
on and on and on...
*sigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by murrthecat
Yes, that's the one I am trying, thank you.
And thanks for the correction, too!
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