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Old 04-08-2012, 03:34 AM   #1
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Default [WT Imperial] OT and meta discussions thread

I wondered when you would show your face avatar
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:39 PM   #2
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I'm gonna start a band. Called "Avatar44". And all my songs will be about how bad I suck ass.
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Old 04-08-2012, 07:08 PM   #3
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Square buttons next to round buttons? Really? Like nearly ever piece of hardware ever?

No, it's not ugly as hell. Its nice to see you so desperate to bash SOMETHING and find ....square buttons next to round buttons.

Looks like someone needed some attention again.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:34 PM   #4
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OMG! This time this guy went overboard... can't someone just ban him?
Jeez... no way this guy is real!!! Come on! Can't someone do justice this
time? What about hacking his ass off???!?!

The theme is just awesome, no way it looks bad, square buttons are fracking
awesome...

You see what you did!!!! (please, someone hack this jerk, please, forbid
him use the internet!!! arghhhh).
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:22 AM   #5
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sightlessness

don't be a troll, I'm back to make you suffer more

Pixelshock

"I'm gonna start a band"

This is how garbage music is made. With crazy people "starting a band" in a minute.
But, in your particular case at least you choose a good name.
So, good luck!


v98235


you know, there is a reason for why a normal daw is not 1:1 hardware looking. Digital design is a little different aproach if you ask me.
Look how messy is this Imperial tcp panel. Little square and little knobs everywhere, locked on primitive and repetitive equiangular polygons, it's almost an abstract field, not something meant to be a rapid environment. If you look from a plane, a city is more like a texture with repetitive patterns, and is hard to tell where is your street and where is your lovely mother waiting for the grammy son to return home. From the ground, your street is clear enough 'cause people like you made things easy to follow.

In this silly Imperial tcp panel, the street (the goal) is lost and Rapid Environment for Audio Prototyping and Efficient Recording is not Reaper anymore.

Shure, round and square but maybe not like this?! Show me a single DAW with such a mess on a panel. Where others competitors simplify, glamorous things like Imperial is the wrong way. The mixer is almost fine but fancy, with silly logo and acceptable only for big monitors, nothing like a good design solution for a general and decent use. So, why you cry boys?

The truth is White Tie is the real Spiderman, 'cause always find the same tricks to catch you...
Fun to be here as always...

Don't forget, Reaper is the winner!
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:12 AM   #6
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For whatever reason, lots of people wanted to see that I was making progress on this theme, and liked looking at the screenshots. Fair enough. This was why the thread was put up, as a courtesy ...you like looking at this stuff? That's nice, sure, here you go... and to recruit some testers. Which worked nicely. While I like praise as much as the next man, to infer that I was sharing my progress in order to have my ego stroked or somesuchshit is offensive, symptomatic of so much, and I think tells us an awful lot about anyone who made such a suggestion and their world view. Why do nice things round here have to get reduced to cynicism and sneering so often these days?

The Reaper forum is not the Reaper community
Its just a bit of it.

I used to find it very useful and productive to develop in open and public IRC, and here on the forum, because its enormously useful to interact with the community. I screw up a lot in my work, because I like to experiment. Usually I rely on my client to say 'whoops, you made an ooopsie', with Reaper stuff the community plays that critical role, for which I am truly grateful. But Reaper is very big these days; I can even interact with Reaper users at my local pub. Public IRC has degenerated to, I sadly find, exposing myself to the toxic sludge oozing out of the bottom of the community barrel, even though that's only because of a tiny fraction of the gents in the room. (Read my 1000th post for my views on the damage one twat can do.) Its no longer worth it, so these things now happen in private rooms. Not very Reaper, and such a shame, but there it is. This is how cliques get formed, elitism breeds, and communication breaks down, and I hate it. But I want to get my work done without being abused, so ...sigh.... so be it. No, I'm not 'thin-skined' - far from it, I just have ...standards. In working on this theme I have done the same 'side room' thing with the forum, which I appreciate is hardly utopian. I'd rather work with a small group of committed users because its more productive, through no fault of my own, nor (in all likelihood) the fault of you, dear reader. But if the public spaces of our community are going to be populated by a few people who have no compunction about farting (they have the right, and therefore see no reason why they should not), then I'm off to a side room. Sorry.

From here on out, it is of absolutely no consequence to me whatsoever whether I post screenshots on the forum or not. But if people want to see them, excellent, nice, ok. But if doing so generates grief, abuse or any manner of 'OMG I'm working for twats' feeling in me, then ....pffft. Cya. I am very fortunate that I can get what I need elsewhere and when I'm finished you still get the theme. You decide, I'm indifferent beyond my will to fight for this forum to stay a nice place.

This theme is real, it is functioning, members of the Reaper community are as we speak using it in session. But its not finished. I have released incomplete themes in the past. It didn't go well. My months of work on this epic task are not at an end; only today one of my valuable testers pointed out some sloppiness with group indicators that means I'm going to have to rebuild a sizeable proportion of the buttons - a huge job, but absolutely worth getting right. I shall not, per se, enjoy doing it, it shall do nothing for my ego, its certainly not going to make any difference to the slim impression you can glean from screenshots, but do it I must. Let me work.

If the thread becomes counter productive again, I will close it again. That's not a threat, this is not about me. I'm doing this either way, and will choose the most productive path. You decide.
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:32 AM   #7
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I generally ignore bottom-dwellers. They fart in public places merely to draw attention to themselves in an attempt to assuage their feelings of inadequacy. The attention only gives them temporary relief so, like addicts, they have to up the dose just to maintain the effect. Eventually, this leads to banishment.

It's clear the vast majority of forum members who've seen glimpses of your work greatly admire the result so far, and look forward with eager anticipation to the release of the theme.

Cheers
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:52 AM   #8
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White Tie, a much simpler solution is to put the trolls on yourignore list. I didn't even know the forum had this great feature but it is really all you need to do to stay fully engaged in a productive and civil dialogue.

This is all you need to do. I find it works in real life too.
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:56 AM   #9
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I think your theme just made a lot of people go into brain meltdown to be honest mate (me included). Which in turn breeds all manner of irrational emotions both good and bad. It's impossible to escape some kind of controversy when you walk off the beaten path and do something as pioneering as imperial, just take it in your stride man and know that most of us are artists too who understand that any good artistic endevour takes as long as it takes.

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Old 04-20-2012, 06:06 AM   #10
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exactly, but ignore is still there for a sanity switch. It doesn't get any better than that.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:49 AM   #11
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The problem with ignore is that it only works with previous pests. New ones are born every day.

The torture of being a creative person is finding some minuscule amount of confidence every day to finish your work.

Now that does sound like Bullshit. I know.

But every bit of creativity I have out in the marketplace has at one moment been considered for the trash pile. Every single one. A song. A production. A mix. A video.

And if I posted my work on a public forum before it was finished, I am 100% sure I would not be making my living as such. Everything would be scrapped.

I give White Tie major props for trying to work this way and truly hope that people can treat each other better when they're allowed to be a part of the most intimate processes.

It's not hard to find flaws in other's work. I do it all the time. But it's best kept to myself or offered as constructive criticism.

Doubt is an awful beast. It exists in any of us that has any bit of modesty or humbleness.

Sometimes I think I would put out better and more work if I was a douchebag.

All the best.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:56 AM   #12
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In other forums i have seen some feature called "Thread Moderated by Author" - great thing, that let author moderate-out all troll-shit. The "moderator" status is given by forum moderators or administration (after posting-time, or by request).

When you creator, and not just talker, all stupid trolling very painfull, and you need some steel-like inner calm, for ignoring that noise...

When Author has a some moderation features - it good thing.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:56 AM   #13
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All the best.
+1 You will always have my support WT.

Cheers from Canada!
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:11 AM   #14
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In other forums i have seen some feature called "Thread Moderated by Author" - great thing, that let author moderate-out all troll-shit. The "moderator" status is given by forum moderators or administration (after posting-time, or by request).

When you creator, and not just talker, all stupid trolling very painfull, and you need some steel-like inner calm, for ignoring that noise...

When Author has a some moderation features - it good thing.
But it still doesn't fix the initial problem. The author (who's trying to be productive) still has to read thru all that negative energy crap.

Imagine giving your children the "power" to censor all the nudity, cursing or violence from their TV viewing after they've just watched it.

You could have messages moderated before they go public but that would be tedious.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:49 AM   #15
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But it still doesn't fix the initial problem. The author (who's trying to be productive) still has to read thru all that negative energy crap.

Imagine giving your children the "power" to censor all the nudity, cursing or violence from their TV viewing after they've just watched it.

You could have messages moderated before they go public but that would be tedious.

Agree, but Reaper forum is a very crowded place, and moderators can't watch ALL new messages every second, and check it's etics.. You can't control users heads, but you can control your threads.. Only author, who create topic, can make it really clean for work. Better then anyone. I'm really sure about "Thread moderated by author"- is the solution.(Looks like button "moderate" - on every users message, you can hide message, and block user from thread) - i think this is the solution.

1. not needed too many moderators.
2. not needed long disputes with administration like ("please save me! i just wanna WORK and not wanna talks with trolls!! Ban it please!!")
3. you don't need to be a dao-warrior, or hippie.. You just press the button, and continue your work.

You just make your work.
I'm wait this Reaper theme and watch this thread. And very sad to see trolls activity.
Sorry for many words.That all.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:20 AM   #16
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I can certainly understand your position WT, and being a guilty party in the OMG crowd I will hold my words and make this my last post on the subject until the product is out. I appreciate your hard work, and patiently await 2015...
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:57 PM   #17
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Geez, I'd hate to start a whole nother row, but I've got to say WT, I think you are pretty thin skinned. This thread was 95% people people fawning over the theme and one guy starts being irreverent so you decide to shut the whole thing down. "You troll me! I troll you!". This is the internet, that is par for the course. How unrealistic is it to assume that you can do anything on the internet and never encounter a troll? You could have just ignored him. Or failing that you could have just left the thread alone and not locked it. I know you started the thread and it's about your work but when it has 11 pages worth of discussion it's not really your own anymore and obviously people are going to be bummed when you cut them off, and some were. And then you come back and give a speech about the abuse you have to deal with and how you couldn't care less if we see any of your work, and if anybody says something you don't like, well then forget you all.

I mean you do have a point about people being rude, but if you can't operate and make it into a huge event everytime every single person isn't on your side then you become difficult to deal with, and I'm sure it's no fun for you getting all worked up either. No, it's not constructive when people act like assholes, but it's also not constructive if someone decides, "well then just forget it!" just because of people like that, and everyone has to worry about constraining their input to something that couldn't hurt feelings. If I was working on a theme and someone commented that it sucked balls or something I would probably consider that slightly useful information just in a stupid package.

So when I see what is obviously an emotional overreaction and then a claim of not being thin skinned it rings a bell. Just my 2 cents. But I suppose I'm just an asshole and I have no right mention any of this to you and I'm being counter productive so now the thread will be closed.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:41 PM   #18
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Geez, I'd hate to start a whole nother row, but I've got to say WT, I think you are pretty thin skinned...
Why don't you just open a thread in the lounge or even better a poll about WT being thin skinned or not...?
This thread should get back to theming (and whatever "skinning", programwise).
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:43 PM   #19
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I didn't want to open a new thread or do a PM because it's really not that big of a deal, just something I wanted to mention.

And WT began a discussion about these issues with his return post, not me.

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Old 04-20-2012, 01:47 PM   #20
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In Before Another Vanishing

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Old 04-20-2012, 01:56 PM   #21
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In Before Another Vanishing

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^This!
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:05 PM   #22
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I didn't want to open a new thread or do a PM because it's really not that big of a deal, just something I wanted to mention.

And WT began a discussion about these issues with his return post, not me.
I have to admit, I didn't see an issue here either. What I saw was 10+ pages of universally positive massive praise and then "Avatar" showed up and trolled a bit, fishing for an argument.

Anyway, great theme. Looking forward to giving it a close up look.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:09 PM   #23
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Why anyone would put in the work to make a theme for this community of users is beyond me.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #24
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Why anyone would put in the work to make a theme for this community of users is beyond me.
Some of us do it because we love doing it and we use the themes we create in our own everyday work. I personally enjoy sharing my creations with anyone who might gain some use out of them.
I humbly admit that my skills with WALTER pale in comparison to Mr. WT but I still love the fact that I can make REAPER look and behave the way I work best. If that can help someone else, then that is a bonus.
FWIW, despite some of the trolling (this is teh interwebs after all), I generally find the REAPER forum a place where there are appreciative and knowledgeable folk. I tend to ignore most of the negativity and just do what I do. Those who want to interact as decent folk will do so regardless of such nonsense.

Just my thoughts. YMMV.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:29 PM   #25
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Why anyone would put in the work to make a theme for this community of users is beyond me.
Amen.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #26
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First time I've ever seen Kenny angry.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #27
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That's like saying, "Oh. Look at that kid over there that accidentally spilled gasoline on himself."

"I'm not even that into smoking but maybe I'll go smoke a cigarette really close to him."

No big deal. Right?
Lol, this must be the most bizarre comparison I've ever read.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:54 PM   #28
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...and everyone has to worry about constraining their input to something that couldn't hurt feelings...
I do not recall EVER seeing WT ask people to not provide an opinion. He has consistently asked that people do so in a RESPECTFUL manner. It is only slightly more difficult to provide input respectfully than not, but the effort is well worth it, IMO (and in WT's, if I understand him correctly.)
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:10 PM   #29
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Geez, I'd hate to start a whole nother row, but I've got to say WT, I think you are pretty thin skinned. This thread was 95% people people fawning over the theme and one guy starts being irreverent so you decide to shut the whole thing down.
Uh. Can't you hear this? I closed down the bit where I just posted screenshots on the forum, which is so far from being 'the whole thing' its trivial. What you see as an emotional overreaction is entirely your own inference and, may I say, a bit ...oh never mind. I can close a thread on the forum and go back to all the other ways I'm interacting with users and getting it done. Its a shame for the forum, which saddens and disappoints me, but its really no big deal.

I actively reach out, every day, for the feedback of the Reaper community. On many things. I need it, I value it. I WANT criticism. I'm not motivated by praise, though of course its nice. I'm not thin skinned or criticism averse (5 years of art school, all my adult life working in creative industries ...I'd be dead by now) - it seems so weak that I even have to mention that. For no other client do I have to put up with this stuff, or anything approaching it, yet I believe the Reaper method is the strongest and the future. But you can be certain that I will speak up against its downsides, because we need to make this work. This is NOT the internet. This is the Reaper forum. We're nice round here. Had I not posted my screenshots, I could have avoided all of this. If I share what I find helpful, you can take that from the horse's mouth. Or you can wilfully impede for whatever reason seems to make sense to you.

Decide.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:15 PM   #30
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Kenny / anyone else, I appreciate your wish to be supportive but would remind you that I or any other moderator would be compelled to close this thread (permanently) for personal abuse of another forum member. Keep it civil please!
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:17 PM   #31
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Kenny / anyone else, I appreciate your wish to be supportive but would remind you that I or any other moderator would be compelled to close this thread (permanently) for personal abuse of another forum member. Keep it civil please!
oh, wow, is this a new policy?

anyway, thanks for your work. I probably wont use Imperial, but the default is so great and Imperial is a work of art!

also, to the person asking why anyone would make a theme for this community, it's a good community, and just cause there are some bad apples, doesn't mean that the people that actually USE reaper aren't GREATLY appreciative of WT's work.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #32
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Kenny / anyone else, I appreciate your wish to be supportive but would remind you that I or any other moderator would be compelled to close this thread (permanently) for personal abuse of another forum member. Keep it civil please!
Understood.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:19 PM   #33
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I think everyone who acts like an a**hole ( yes you know who you are, and we know who you are ) in this thread should be forced to make a theme themselves and post their work for everyone else to comment on.

Should level up the playing field real nice....
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:22 PM   #34
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I believe the Reaper method is the strongest and the future.
On this I respectfully disagree.

One of the nice things about Pro Tools being so expensive is that we have every right to complain when it doesn't work the way it should.

Can't really do that with Reaper.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:23 PM   #35
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...also, to the person asking why anyone would make a theme for this community, it's a good community, and just cause there are some bad apples, doesn't mean that the people that actually USE reaper aren't GREATLY appreciative of WT's work.
Quote:
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I think everyone who acts like an a**hole ( yes you know who you are, and we know who you are ) in this thread should be forced to make a theme themselves and post their work for everyone else to comment on.

Should level up the playing field real nice....
+1 on both of these posts.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:30 PM   #36
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People PMing me - I don't have time to answer you all individually but : thanks very much / yes I agree / no I'd rather you didn't / yes I do know about the thing with the thing / Really? I shagged your mum.

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oh, wow, is this a new policy?
Well, no. But as I know you are aware, abuse breeds abuse and before you know it the padlock is on.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:34 PM   #37
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Uh. Can't you hear this? I closed down the bit where I just posted screenshots on the forum, which is so far from being 'the whole thing' its trivial.
What I meant by "the whole thing" was the thread, which you did close down and remove the screenshots. It was the whole representative of the theme and the way of providing feedback on the forum. You admit this when you say it's a shame for the forum. I thought all of that was pretty clear.

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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
What you see as an emotional overreaction is entirely your own inference... I need it, I value it. I WANT criticism...For no other client do I have to put up with this stuff, or anything approaching it, ...But you can be certain that I will speak up against its downsides, because we need to make this work.
Again, you closed a thread full of people giving you criticism because one guy was rude about how he gave it to you. That doesn't seems to add up with what you say here. And what you had to deal with was really not much, imo, hence my thought that you are thin skinned. And you didn't speak out about anything until after you decided to undo your initial course of action when people complained.

It's true that it's only my guess what you were feeling and how that contributed to your actions, but it is an educated guess. Seems to me the evidence points to an emotional reaction.

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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
This is NOT the internet. This is the Reaper forum. We're nice round here.
Wut? This is the internet. Anybody can register for the forum and say anything they want. There is no application process or pot luck meet and greet. So, it doesn't much make sense to react to the one guy that wanders in and says mean things in a way that is going to adversely effect everyone, including yourself. Obviously you were getting something out of that thread (I'm not claiming you were being a praise whore here) or you wouldn't have created it.

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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
If I share what I find helpful, you can take that from the horse's mouth. Or you can wilfully impede for whatever reason seems to make sense to you.

Decide.
Well, I'm sure that's meant to make a very sage impression, but it doesn't have much to do with what's actually going on here. I don't think I'm impeding anything by leaving a personal comment in a thread, unless of course someone were thin skinned and blew what I said out of proportion.

And like I said before, this is not a huge deal to me. The only sense in which it is a big deal (and the reason why I took time to write out a strong case) is that I anticipated defensiveness and accusations of me being an asshole.

And I didn't mean to denigrate your contribution to the forum. Seems people are assuming this but I didn't say anything like it. I'm sure huge amounts of people are going to love Imperial, and I don't doubt you are doing something selfless by creating it for them and taking critisicm. What I've said doesn't have anything to do with the theme, just you. As you said, we are a community, so I take an interest in the community members.

It seemed to me that you were being disengenous when you claimed that you weren't thin skinned because you were hiding the fact that you reacted because you were hurt and took yourself too seriously, and for what it's worth I can only believe you still are being disengenous. I mean I guess you think you really are thick skinned but if you'd look at yourself objectively I doubt you'd come to the same conclusion. But I don't want to hammer you to the wall or make you pay some price (other than getting you to admit it). Whatever.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:50 PM   #38
run, megalodon
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Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
I do not recall EVER seeing WT ask people to not provide an opinion. He has consistently asked that people do so in a RESPECTFUL manner. It is only slightly more difficult to provide input respectfully than not, but the effort is well worth it, IMO (and in WT's, if I understand him correctly.)
Well, yes, I agree with what you say and I think that you are right to quote me here because my statement is silly because I haven't expressed what I meant very well. It is good when people express themselves respectfully. Then again a lot of times the tone and the message are intertwined. So when you create an overemphasis on presenting things in a palatable manner, like saying "If I feel like anybody's being a twat I'm gone" which is what WT basically said, you create a climate in which the negative opinions get massaged so you don't have as open and honest of a discussion as you could have had.
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
One of the nice things about Pro Tools being so expensive is that we have every right to complain when it doesn't work the way it should.

Can't really do that with Reaper.
Except Avid won't do anything to fix the software.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:36 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by djjedidiah View Post
Except Avid won't do anything to fix the software.
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