Old 10-15-2018, 09:00 AM   #1
Miul
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Default Lanes limit?

Hi,

I'm recording a bass and I've noticed that after the 16th lane the new recordings goe back on top covering the old record.

Is this behavior "normal" or I must enable something, I searched over the internet, in the manual and in the settings but I found nothing mentioning this limit.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:52 AM   #2
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I think you have to pull down the track vertically to get more lanes visible, with the option "show all lanes when room" (something like that)

besides, 16 is a lot for 1 track! I would imagine that there's not much more screen real estate to use, so that's your limit.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:56 AM   #3
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I think you have to pull down the track vertically to get more lanes visible, with the option "show all lanes when room" (something like that)

besides, 16 is a lot for 1 track! I would imagine that there's not much more screen real estate to use, so that's your limit.
It looks like the I could not pull the track more, anyway, thatís not a good reason to start recording on top of another lane. But I disocovered I was in some sort of different mode....donít ask me which one.

For me 16 takes are just the start. It's a personal way of working, but I really donít thing that is the limit. It would really be ridiculous.
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:33 PM   #4
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The lanes are all preserved as they should be, but they will overlap if there's not enough room to show all lanes separately.
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:37 AM   #5
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The lanes are all preserved as they should be, but they will overlap if there's not enough room to show all lanes separately.
yeah right...they are preserved...

So, maybe I could buy a bigger monitor...go figure!
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Old 10-17-2018, 04:25 AM   #6
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Use two monitors, like many of us do? Assuming you are on windows you get to decide how the real estate is used, which can be very useful if you want one huge window or two separate ones.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:36 AM   #7
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Use two monitors, like many of us do? Assuming you are on windows you get to decide how the real estate is used, which can be very useful if you want one huge window or two separate ones.
I'm not sure...it was a serious answer than? Why, cannot just scroll down???
I think I was in one of those weird mode I haven't got chance to explore yet.
Although, once i managed to go back to the "regular one" I didn't reach the 16 lanes to verify it.
I cannot imagine this being true

P.S. I'm on mac and I already have 2 monitors
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Old 10-17-2018, 09:38 AM   #8
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There have been a couple of times when I hit record to capture a rehearsal but forgot that I had it in loop record mode over a couple measure stretch and I ended up with two hours worth of two measure long takes stacked on top of each other on like 6 tracks.

After a brief panic, I found that the underlying .wavs are just full length. So I deleted the items referencing them as takes and inserted them as full length single take items and went on to mix the thing.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:43 AM   #9
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I'm not sure...it was a serious answer than? Why, cannot just scroll down???
I think I was in one of those weird mode I haven't got chance to explore yet.
Although, once i managed to go back to the "regular one" I didn't reach the 16 lanes to verify it.
I cannot imagine this being true

P.S. I'm on mac and I already have 2 monitors
I have a mac but only with one monitor which is why I limited my comments to windows, where I DO have 2 monitors.

You obviously want a LOT more showing than most folks do. Was just a thought....

EDIT: Just saw your comment about scrolling down & actually realised what you were saying. Havent specifically tried scrolling vertically through the tcp lanes using scroll buttons but grabbing the scroll bar with the mouse works fine on windows, so I am really not sure what you are trying to achieve.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:24 AM   #10
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I have a mac but only with one monitor which is why I limited my comments to windows, where I DO have 2 monitors.

You obviously want a LOT more showing than most folks do. Was just a thought....

EDIT: Just saw your comment about scrolling down & actually realised what you were saying. Havent specifically tried scrolling vertically through the tcp lanes using scroll buttons but grabbing the scroll bar with the mouse works fine on windows, so I am really not sure what you are trying to achieve.
Hi,
as I said I was in a different mode which I don't know yet and files where going on top of each other after 16 lanes.

Just for the sake of it, now I experimented in the regular mode...no limits...but look what happens.

https://youtu.be/bySxjeC9fgo
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:27 AM   #11
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I know it's not going to be acceptable but your "takes life" would be 1000 times easier if you always keep the takes collapsed and use T/SHIFT+T to navigate takes. I haven't expanded takes in 5 or 6 years now because there is really no need - especially when there are lots of takes.

My signature used to read... "If you aren't collapsing takes, you are both working too hard and shooting yourself in the foot".

I still find that to be true.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:56 AM   #12
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I know it's not going to be acceptable but your "takes life" would be 1000 times easier if you always keep the takes collapsed and use T/SHIFT+T to navigate takes. I haven't expanded takes in 5 or 6 years now because there is really no need - especially when there are lots of takes.

My signature used to read... "If you aren't collapsing takes, you are both working too hard and shooting yourself in the foot".

I still find that to be true.
Don’t you think instead, that they should just redo something that has been thought completely wrong?

By watching the entire picture I can already understand which track can fit and have a broader vision of what happened. Not this way
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:02 AM   #13
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Don’t you think instead, that they should just redo something that has been thought completely wrong?
It's irrelevant (for me) for more than one reason...

1. If the height can be even larger and larger, aka display every take, no matter how many exist, it eventually becomes unmanageable regardless of DAW.

2. I don't collapse as a workaround to the shortcoming you mentioned, I collapse because it literally is 100 times better in multiple ways, it's faster, it's more efficient and above all it is safer in every way. Not to mention it solves several other issues and makes certain take edits easier which I won't go into here.

Here's a video where I have a real project (its a song from the release in my sig). Which looks more organized and easier to manage to you? Expanded or Collapsed? Be honest!



I comped those 50 or so takes into the final version with them never being expanded and I was done in a very short time, had they been expanded, it would have been a nightmare - not because of reaper issues but because of the complexity of the takes and overdubs and punches within them. It takes a slight effort to get used to them but I guarantee from a strictly technical perspective, collapsed is better.


I'm not against your ask, I'm just saying working expanded is inflicting self pain.

Last edited by karbomusic; 10-18-2018 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:42 AM   #14
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It's irrelevant (for me) for more than one reason...

1. If the height can be even larger and larger, aka display every take, no matter how many exist, it eventually becomes unmanageable regardless of DAW.

2. I don't collapse as a workaround to the shortcoming you mentioned, I collapse because it literally is 100 times better in multiple ways, it's faster, it's more efficient and above all it is safer in every way. Not to mention it solves several other issues and makes certain take edits easier which I won't go into here.

Here's a video where I have a real project (its a song from the release in my sig). Which looks more organized and easier to manage to you? Expanded or Collapsed? Be honest!



I comped those 50 or so takes into the final version with them never being expanded and I was done in a very short time, had they been expanded, it would have been a nightmare - not because of reaper issues but because of the complexity of the takes and overdubs and punches within them. It takes a slight effort to get used to them but I guarantee from a strictly technical perspective, collapsed is better.


I'm not against your ask, I'm just saying working expanded is inflicting self pain.
It must be a different approach. I donít feel any pain, actually besides what I said before, by watching them all, I can easily remember the waveform I like, therefore, I can go right away go back to them.

In terms of organization, of course watching lanes is terrible. But here again, sorry as i donít really want to be argumentative, it is only reaper that makes you show all the tracks or nothing at all. Other daw are selective by tracks and normally, when youíre done with editing you close them.

As you might have understood, if I have to name what I like the least in Reaper, is definitely the comping
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:50 AM   #15
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As you might have understood, if I have to name what I like the least in Reaper, is definitely the comping
My loose observation is that most people who don't collapse feel ^that way, most who collapse don't feel that way.

OT: If anyone ever wants to have a comping contest between the two methods, I might be happy to participate.

Last edited by karbomusic; 10-18-2018 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:54 PM   #16
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My loose observation is that most people who don't collapse feel ^that way, most who collapse don't feel that way.

OT: If anyone ever wants to have a comping contest between the two methods, I might be happy to participate.
As soon as possible I will try it your way and let you know
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:59 PM   #17
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My loose observation is that most people who don't collapse feel ^that way, most who collapse don't feel that way.
I'm not one of those who complains about the takes/comping system. It took a couple minutes to get my head around it when I came over from Sonar, but once I did I found I liked it even better than their way.

I still can't get away from lanes. I've read your posts, I understand your arguments, I can even almost agree with most of your points, but I just can't make it. It freaks me out to have all those lanes hidden under the surface, but also seeing the lanes themselves is a more intuitive way for me to tell what items use the same takes than the colors which all just seem random and uncorrelated to me.

Maybe one of these days...
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:21 PM   #18
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I'm not one of those who complains about the takes/comping system. It took a couple minutes to get my head around it when I came over from Sonar, but once I did I found I liked it even better than their way.

I still can't get away from lanes. I've read your posts, I understand your arguments, I can even almost agree with most of your points, but I just can't make it. It freaks me out to have all those lanes hidden under the surface, but also seeing the lanes themselves is a more intuitive way for me to tell what items use the same takes than the colors which all just seem random and uncorrelated to me.

Maybe one of these days...
I know, I don't think the OP will like it either. I just visualize it as the exact same stack, but from a z-order perspective vs a y-order perspective. The entire thing is just rotated 90 degrees. Personally, I thought it was a little unnerving at first but I can always count on the colors and the take numbers to guide me, then things get real fast and - you CANT delete a take that isn't on top so there is nothing to worry about losing. I get it, kinda.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:27 PM   #19
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TBH, I never have understood fully the difference between a comp and a take in reaper. I use takes religiously. As for lanes, I just collapse them to a single line and use the previous/next take actions as buttons to cycle through them. Never saw much use for a bunch of tiny lanes anyway.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:52 PM   #20
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A comp is a "compilation" of multiple items playing different takes to make up one full performance. The process of sorting out which take you want playing at any given time is what we call comping.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:57 PM   #21
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TBH, I never have understood fully the difference between a comp and a take in reaper.
What aschat said + the "comp" feature in reaper is just the ability to choose different arrangements of takes and save them, then switch between different compiliations of takes. In the good ole tape days that would have been 3 or 4 tracks (if we had them) and we'd be muting/unmuting tracks in real time while bouncing down to the final comp.

I never user reapers comps, just takes. I typically work from left to right and when I hear something that could be better (whathaveyou), split, audition takes, keep one, maybe a slip edit if needed, blah blah, hit play, rinse repeat. By the end of the track, I'm done other than going back and possibly changing a couple of initial decisions.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:09 PM   #22
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@Karbon, @Ashcat:

Thanks for that explanation. Makes sense now. I never needed comps I guess, probably stick to my current process.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:38 PM   #23
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I'm not one of those who complains about the takes/comping system. It took a couple minutes to get my head around it when I came over from Sonar, but once I did I found I liked it even better than their way.

I still can't get away from lanes. I've read your posts, I understand your arguments, I can even almost agree with most of your points, but I just can't make it. It freaks me out to have all those lanes hidden under the surface, but also seeing the lanes themselves is a more intuitive way for me to tell what items use the same takes than the colors which all just seem random and uncorrelated to me.

Maybe one of these days...
I would say that also the color system, the way it is by default and from what I know, seems poor.

It in fact, almost impossible to see which item is selected as the color only slightly get lighter. Instead it is clear when a part is selected as the waveform switch the color with the item and the item becomes white (Under those circumstances I understand why Karbo name the open lanes as a nightmare).

Some magic tricks are then needed in order to understand what item is selected. But of course, this is only true for people like me, for the reaper average user, who's got obviously a perfect color gradient recognition, won't be a problem at all
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:40 PM   #24
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I'm not one of those who complains about the takes/comping system. It took a couple minutes to get my head around it when I came over from Sonar, but once I did I found I liked it even better than their way.

I still can't get away from lanes. I've read your posts, I understand your arguments, I can even almost agree with most of your points, but I just can't make it. It freaks me out to have all those lanes hidden under the surface, but also seeing the lanes themselves is a more intuitive way for me to tell what items use the same takes than the colors which all just seem random and uncorrelated to me.

Maybe one of these days...
This is really unclear to me. How can you use the comping system without using lanes???
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:42 PM   #25
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I actually found out where the 16 lanes limit was coming from.

Preferences - appearance - there is an option called:

Maximum number of lanes, when showing overlapping items in lanes - (clear, isn't it?) which probably default is 16 or at least this is the way is set in my preferences.

Hence, after 16 lanes, not quite sure yet in which mode, new lanes start covering other lanes. Super useful.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:38 AM   #26
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This is really unclear to me. How can you use the comping system without using lanes???
Watch karbo's video above.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:54 AM   #27
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Watch karbo's video above.
I wonder if he is thinking of lanes and takes as the same thing? IOW in the video the lanes are front-to-back instead of top-to-bottom so I fear semantics may be biting us here. If not, then yes, the video.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:05 PM   #28
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Well, after using the collapsed takes for a few months I have reverted back to lanes. The only reason I need to use lanes is because often times, there are some overlaps in a verse or a chorus...and not in a way that can or should be separated by tracks, as they are part of the same phrase or element. Lanes is the only way I can effectively and efficiently manage those overlaps.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:09 PM   #29
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Lanes is the only way I can effectively and efficiently manage those overlaps.
How so? I only ask because collapsed and how it allows me to work with overlaps is one of my favorite features. No need to go through lots of trouble, I was just curious.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:49 PM   #30
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because my favorite thing about the collapsed take system is utilizing auto xfade and split so that, in items where there are no overlaps then its so very quick to go through takes and move the xfade as needed, and punch ins are easy in the same way...but only when the audio doesn't overlap. Once it overlaps, then the xfade/split makes me have to choose one piece of take over the another.

How would you suggest to have the best of both?
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Old 10-20-2018, 01:51 AM   #31
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I'm not against your ask, I'm just saying working expanded is inflicting self pain.
Here is my video, a bit longer than yours, but hopefully it clarify all my thought about comping in reaper in a more empirical way.

https://youtu.be/i1wv0uNPMFc
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:11 AM   #32
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Here is my video, a bit longer than yours, but hopefully it clarify all my thought about comping in reaper in a more empirical way.
If you just grab the splits and slide them where you want them instead of making new splits, it actually works about exactly the same as what you showed in studio one. I think the only difference is that in Reaper you need to find the spot where the mouse pointer turns to ][ in order to make that change rather than just clicking anywhere in the Take.

I'm sure there are actions that either have or could have key commands for expanding tracks. I think I mostly agree on most of your points about track/lane height. It would be cool to be able to expand each lane as necessary like in S1. I have to say, though, that I'm pretty sure I've worked with more takes in a smaller space than that, so idk if maybe there's some different setting somewhere. I don't remember changing whatever that is myself, but I very well could have.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:32 AM   #33
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Here is my video, a bit longer than yours, but hopefully it clarify all my thought about comping in reaper in a more empirical way.

https://youtu.be/i1wv0uNPMFc
I've only gotten through 1/2 the video but will say...

1. Your idea about making individual lanes bigger and the track itself bigger if needed, I agree is a good feature for those who want that - my only point is that I think stacked lanes is a very messy way of working no matter where, as per your video it is also messy and requires scrolling etc. even in S1 - it may not be as messy but it is still messy once you have lots of takes:



2. I don't understand why you are splitting in order to re-record some sections, it works just like any other DAW, you select the time area you want to punch, set record to "record auto punch time selection" and it does the rest for you. Did I misunderstand? I can show how to do this (sometime) as collapsed and be zero problems.

Back to collapsing, I don't use collapsed because reaper is messy, I use collapsed because ANY DAW stacking takes top to bottom like that is messy by its very nature and the more takes/punches you do the more messy it is to deal with. I cold do 1000 takes with collapsed and never be messy or scroll or resize the track, try that with lanes.

Edit: Something I find ironic is people don't seem to mind (and beg for) collapsed when they want collapsible/editable folders which is in many ways the exact same thing. Not directed at you but general observation.

Thank you for the video, it certainly introduces humanity and better understanding when we can hear others speak - it was nice hearing you explain with spoken vs typed words. At some point I will try to do a video but unfortunately the current set of projects I'm working on all require single performances and comping and fixing mistakes is not allowed!

I'll try to review the rest of the video later.

Last edited by karbomusic; 10-20-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 08:38 AM   #34
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I've only gotten through 1/2 the video but will say...
I will quickly explain my process for vocal recording.

I have a first session where I record, or have recorded, 7-8 takes. Than I try to roughly spot the weak points and make some inserts (on the fly) trying to catch the right one.

After that, I stop and start comping. A very common things I've noticed through the years it that the first couple of takes may have a very good energy but the sound might not be the correct one yet.
Anyway I comp it and call it comp1.

Next day or few days later, I have another session, normally here the singer has interiorized the melody better and all the suggestions, if I gave them. Therefore, I start recording 5-6 more takes. It really depends on the result I had on the first session and what I'm getting on the second one.

At this point I comp again, usually against the comp 1 if I feel it was good.

It might be that even after the second series of takes, some part might be weak, than I might have a third session to insert. But I always try also a couple of full takes to see what's the vibe of the day.

Of course, I end up, with lots of track which I tend to keep as sometimes you might need them for any case.

Before comping, I have in mind a sound that delivers better for the singer and I start looking for that sound, sentence by sentence, normally left to right. I might change according to needs.

Few times I found myself cluttered with takes, but just for habit, I never comped the way you do, which I will try next time. I can tell you that I feel that sometimes is surely not going to work. For instance in adlib parts, where each sentence differs in terms of size from one take to another. Therefore, being able to switch fast and nicely from one system to another is definitely the way to go.

I agree with you and this is why I made the video. A touch of humanity it's always welcome!

Cheers
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:12 AM   #35
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I will quickly explain my process for vocal recording.

I have a first session where I record, or have recorded, 7-8 takes. Than I try to roughly spot the weak points and make some inserts (on the fly) trying to catch the right one.
^Perfect, I just did the same... I made this video very hastily, I just improvised drums, acoustic, bass very quickly without a plan... but I used the bass track to demonstrate so I tracked it as-is and live as the video was recording - I ran three full takes then punch-ins. I tried to cover most of the bases, punch-ins, timing adjustments, punch selections, deciding which take I wanted to keep, exposing takes to left/right by moving splits, exposing takes outside the selection they were recorded in, crossfades, timing adjustments, and so on to show a few of the things that can be done. Notice I was able work very fast and never have to expand the takes - had I used some shortcuts I often use, it would have been even faster.

I admit this is a bit sloppy but some of that is on purpose - I didn't really have real musical decisions to make, but it should make sense. It's still uploading should be ready in a couple minutes...

Full size (recommended): https://youtu.be/PqbROSzjuxE


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Old 10-20-2018, 09:37 PM   #36
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^Perfect, I just did the same

Thank you for the video. I had perfectly clear in mind the way you work.

My approach differs in the fact that I rarely insert before a first comping. Your workflow is generally faster as you go to fix right away what you feel is not right.
I instead take the chance to verify it first, as sometimes, what you feel is good when performing, turns out not to be as good as you thought and vice versa.

Anyway, it was cool to see you on "the mouse".
I'm always very curious about other people workflow. And I find there is always something to be learned, being the user a very advanced one or just a newbie just taking approach.

Cheers
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