Old 10-16-2018, 07:14 AM   #1
Coachz
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Default Bus track send volumes dilemma

Start with a Bus with an effect and with 4 tracks sending to it.

Each of those tracks are also sending to FX like reverb.

How can I get the Bus to allow me to lower the volume of it (using fader) and also lower the other sends of the tracks please?

If I just pull the Bus fader down then the track sends to the reverb don't change. I can't see a way to do it with Folders, Busses or VCAs. Imagine you have a Drum bus with a hard compressor on the bus and the snare with a reverb send.

If you pull the drum bus fader down then the snare verb is still the same, If you pull the snare down then you no longer have the drive in the Bus that gives you the sound.

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Old 10-16-2018, 07:21 AM   #2
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AFAIK what I explained yesterday (flowing through the folder on separate channels) is literally the only way that isn't more complicated or has side-effects you wouldn't like. As I mentioned it isn't as bad as it sounds, once set up (which is only 1 extra step) the only thing you lose is adjusting the receives on the FX track individually but that's rare anyway.

Feel free to ask of course but I don't know of any method as robust without other side-effects.
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Old 10-16-2018, 07:31 AM   #3
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Demo... Drag the folder onto the FX track and set to 3/4 > 1/2, then all you do is drag any child onto the folder and set to 1/2 > 3/4 - it really is that simple and simple to manage and less complex than using VCAs on sends - notice the folder now reduces the sends to the FX track without affecting the compressor.

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Old 10-16-2018, 07:51 AM   #4
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yes but not for nested folders. Doesn't seem possible. I'm smoking the hard stuff !

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Old 10-16-2018, 07:59 AM   #5
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You add a 3/4 to 3/4 from the nested track to it's parent - at least my test shows that but I tested quickly and could be wrong - It feels more complex than it is and I think that is still easier to manage than VCAs with the extra fader, grouping and all that crap. It's just that 3/4 carries the sends that's really all there is to remember.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:01 AM   #6
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But then when you pull down the parent (VOX) you will still have the sends from the child folder (LdVox) going to the fx. Let me send you the good smoke.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
But then when you pull down the parent (VOX) you will still have the sends from the child folder (LdVox) going to the fx. Let me send you the good smoke.
I didn't see that behavior since all sends are flowing through the secondary channels. Both folders (main and child) controlled the vox FX without affecting proportions but I can't test further right now.

Send the smoke, maybe that will help.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:07 AM   #8
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Let me send you the good smoke.
Can I also give you some ideas you don't think will work?
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Start with a Bus with an effect and with 4 tracks sending to it.

Each of those tracks are also sending to FX like reverb.

How can I get the Bus to allow me to lower the volume of it (using fader) and also lower the other sends of the tracks please?

If I just pull the Bus fader down then the track sends to the reverb don't change. I can't see a way to do it with Folders, Busses or VCAs. Imagine you have a Drum bus with a hard compressor on the bus and the snare with a reverb send.

If you pull the drum bus fader down then the snare verb is still the same, If you pull the snare down then you no longer have the drive in the Bus that gives you the sound.

Route the 4 (or however many) source tracks first to a bus track called Send Master. Route the Send_Master bus to the multiple fx bus tracks. Now you can adjust the Send_Master track fader.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:15 AM   #10
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I didn't see that behavior since all sends are flowing through the secondary channels. Both folders (main and child) controlled the vox FX without affecting proportions but I can't test further right now.

Send the smoke, maybe that will help.
LdVox1 routes up through LdVox from there LdVox sends it to the 3 FX tracks on 3/4, 5/6, 7/8. If you pull down Vox which is a parent then you don't affect the sends from LdVox folder and the sends keep blasting.

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Old 10-16-2018, 08:17 AM   #11
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Route the 4 (or however many) source tracks first to a bus track called Send Master. Route the Send_Master bus to the multiple fx bus tracks. Now you can adjust the Send_Master track fader.
That breaks the relationships of the audio and sends. The goal is to pull a fader down in either the parent folder Vox or child folder LdVox and have the childrens volumes go down including the sends.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:21 AM   #12
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LdVox1 routes up through LdVox from there LdVox sends it to the 3 FX tracks on 3/4, 5/6, 7/8. If you pull down Vox which is a parent then you don't affect the sends from LdVox folder and the sends keep blasting.

Mine didn't is what I'm saying. My flow is 3/4 from start to finish FYI. LDVOX > parent (3/4) > parent (3/4) > FX track (1/2). IOW, when I reduced the volume for either the main folder or the sub folder the fx sends dropped proportionally, again, I'm out of pocket, can't test further to be sure.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:28 AM   #13
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Mine didn't is what I'm saying. My flow is 3/4 from start to finish FYI. LDVOX > parent (3/4) > parent (3/4) > FX track (1/2). IOW, when I reduced the volume for either the main folder or the sub folder the fx sends dropped proportionally, again, I'm out of pocket, can't test further to be sure.
And doing it that way will make it so the subfolder LDVox would be unable to be used as a fader because it cannot pull the effect sends down

Last edited by Coachz; 10-16-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:33 AM   #14
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And doing it that way we'll make it so the subfolder LDVox would be unable to be used as a fader because it cannot pull the effect sends down
I think we are on different pages and I'm missing what you are saying... Here, both folders control the vox send to the reverb.

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Old 10-16-2018, 08:42 AM   #15
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Honestly probably best to use channels other than 3/4 though. Those are so often the default sidechain inputs, and especially going through something like a vocal or drum bus, you're likely to want to use that. Of course, you can always reassign that sidechain with the plugin pins, but that's extra work you wouldn't have to do if you just started your FX-thru channels on 5/6 or whatever.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:43 AM   #16
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I think we are on different pages and I'm missing what you are saying... Here, both folders control the vox send to the reverb.

can I download that project or get more details on the routing? Can those two faders work together?
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
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can I download that project or get more details on the routing? Can those two faders work together?
Sure, let me replace the fx with builtin reaper fx, hold tight.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:54 AM   #18
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Apologies if I missed something which is entirely possible, I'm doing 12 things at once right now. Attached is the project, you'll need to replace the two empty items with audio files. I have reacomp on the main folder and reaverb on the fx track FYI.

SendTestII.rpp
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:08 AM   #19
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That breaks the relationships of the audio and sends. The goal is to pull a fader down in either the parent folder Vox or child folder LdVox and have the childrens volumes go down including the sends.
Post fader to the send master.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:18 AM   #20
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I don't recall ever testing whether the extra channels are affected by pan law attenuation. You'd usually want 0db on bus type tracks (folders here) anyway, and I strongly suspect that since Pan doesn't affect those tracks, the law wouldn't either, but I've never proven it to myself.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:20 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Honestly probably best to use channels other than 3/4 though. Those are so often the default sidechain inputs, and especially going through something like a vocal or drum bus, you're likely to want to use that. Of course, you can always reassign that sidechain with the plugin pins, but that's extra work you wouldn't have to do if you just started your FX-thru channels on 5/6 or whatever.
Yea, good point from a best practice perspective.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:31 AM   #22
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Yea, good point from a best practice perspective.
But also very much "do as I say, not as I do". I just throw things around willy nilly and make it work and if i come back a year later I have no idea what's even happening. :P

Funny. I sort of consider this whole thing my idea, but I almost never use it. My mixes just don't usually work this way.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:34 AM   #23
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Funny. I sort of consider this whole thing my idea, but I almost never use it. My mixes just don't usually work this way.
Duly credited. I think it works pretty well and is IMHO far less confusing than dealing with VCAs, YMMV.
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:46 AM   #24
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It seems to work ! Let me know if I'm understanding this.

Ld Vox1 sends to LdVox Folder from 1/2 to 3/4 so now the audio is on 3/4 also at LdVox Folder.

then LdVox Folder sends from 3/4 to All VOX Folder's 3/4

then All VOX Folder sends from 3/4 to the verb 1/2

Same thing for BG Folder and BG Vox.


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Old 10-16-2018, 11:03 AM   #25
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That sounds correct coachz.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:11 AM   #26
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Cool. Then you go to the head of the class! I think this WILL be huge because with or without folders I had no way to have bus fx AND fx sends from channels with the ability to control volume at every point. Hell, it only took since 2010 when I joined to figure this out.

You can't do this with just folders, busses or vcas!

Thanks again and I'll leave it to ashcat_lt to test the pan law! And yes, start with 5/6 to allow for 3/4 sidechain.

Now we need a catchy name. How about "stealth sends".
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:12 AM   #27
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Now we need a catchy name. How about "stealth sends".
I like that, would be cool if this was more consumable/easy to find for others - not sure if one of your cool PDF docs would suffice or something.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:22 AM   #28
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I think this would be ideal if we could get Kenny to do a video on it. Stealth sends kill buses, folders, and Vcas. if not I'm happy to do a document on it with some nice screenshots as it's going to help me a lot thanks to you guys. What say you sir Kenny?
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:30 AM   #29
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I thought Reaper Blog had done something on it, but a quick Google isn't bringing it up. Not that I tried too hard...
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:16 PM   #30
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Also I think the track names for the effects tracks can really help keep things straight. For example


Long verb 5/6
Short delay 7/8
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:56 PM   #31
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Also I think the track names for the effects tracks can really help keep things straight. For example


Long verb 5/6
Short delay 7/8
That's a good idea. I'd really like to be able to alias track channels and/or sends. Would be good for this and many other things.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:24 PM   #32
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That's a good idea. I'd really like to be able to alias track channels and/or sends. Would be good for this and many other things.
what do you mean by alias?
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:56 PM   #33
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what do you mean by alias?
Well like give it a name. Then you could name the channels on the buses to match the tracks to which they ultimately send so that when you make the sends from the individual tracks you can pick by a meaningful name rather than having to cross reference numbers and when you come back a year later you can tell what's happening.
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Old 10-16-2018, 04:18 PM   #34
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Well like give it a name. Then you could name the channels on the buses to match the tracks to which they ultimately send so that when you make the sends from the individual tracks you can pick by a meaningful name rather than having to cross reference numbers and when you come back a year later you can tell what's happening.
Ahh yeah
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Old 10-17-2018, 11:18 AM   #35
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Posted the video request in Kenny's thread.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:06 PM   #36
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Thanks
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