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Old 12-04-2019, 05:46 AM   #1
jackmilas
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Default Reaper audio dropping with high latency plugins on folders

Plugins that introduce high latency cause audio to drop / stutter when they are inserted on parent folder tracks.

Here is a video (unlisted YouTube) presenting the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Ke...ature=youtu.be
Also two of my friends told me they've been having similar issues with folders, so it looks like it's not related to my specific configuration.
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:57 AM   #2
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Lowering the buffer from 1024 to 256 seems to fix the problem in the case presented in the video.
Also it seems that if I make my MSTR folder a regular track and I route the signal from MIX track using send, the problem persists, so it's not related to folders only.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:14 AM   #3
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Turning off latency compensation on the main mix Folder does seem to help the issue a lot.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:52 AM   #4
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Probably this is just your realtime thread being overloaded. Check the performance monitor (RT CPU) and try spreading your heavy plugins on more tracks.
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
Probably this is just your realtime thread being overloaded. Check the performance monitor (RT CPU) and try spreading your heavy plugins on more tracks.
If that was the case, then it would do the same going through busses and it doesn't. It only happens with folder structure. So far I was using folders for organisation purposes only, while sending my tracks to separate buss tracks. Hassle. Now, with the delay compensation off I can revert back to the original greatness of folder stems . Do you mean to say that by putting say a second Folder over the Master (like Master 2) and putting half of the plugins there they will be spread over to other cores??
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmilas View Post
Lowering the buffer from 1024 to 256 seems to fix the problem in the case presented in the video.
Also it seems that if I make my MSTR folder a regular track and I route the signal from MIX track using send, the problem persists, so it's not related to folders only.
I do however manage by sending my tracks to regular buss tracks.
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kris.audioplanet View Post
If that was the case, then it would do the same going through busses and it doesn't. It only happens with folder structure. So far I was using folders for organisation purposes only, while sending my tracks to separate buss tracks. Hassle. Now, with the delay compensation off I can revert back to the original greatness of folder stems . Do you mean to say that by putting say a second Folder over the Master (like Master 2) and putting half of the plugins there they will be spread over to other cores??
Yea was repling to the OP, dont know about your issue.
In general though, I think everyone needs to get used how to use their daw more effectivly, and knowing about how cores/threads work sure helps.
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
Probably this is just your realtime thread being overloaded. Check the performance monitor (RT CPU) and try spreading your heavy plugins on more tracks.
No, this stuttering doesn't correspond with RT CPU overload.
And it happens even with latency heavy UAD plugins such as Ampex.

I'm hoping this will be addressed. There have been several similar unexplained performance issues reported, but up until now people haven't noticed it's a possible problem with the plugin latency compensation engine.
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Old 02-04-2020, 02:19 AM   #9
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I have the same issues.
So my whole mixing template does not work anymore. Even my bigger recording sessions don't work anymore.
No playback of sound but the faders show they are playing. No matter which buffer size.
CPU usage is around 30%.

For the moment I rebuilt my template in Cubase (<- what a pain in the ass - I am a long time Reaper user) and it works fine. (Same routing, same plugins)
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Old 02-04-2020, 09:04 AM   #10
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Perhaps you could have one of the wizards (or even us, lesser folk) connect via Teamviewer and have a look? It can sometimes be an obvious thing that one misses, even at master level
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:22 AM   #11
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Default Latency issues

I am working on a addition vocal for a friend and had NEVER had latency issues until I fired up Reaper..then to my dismay, I had to purchase the new version. So instead of checking it out, I bought it.
THEN, my issue started. I had to keep the headphones on my temple and try to sing without feeling the latency.
It sorta worked.. but have to go back for a re-do.
Today, I fired up an old version of reaper and to my disappointment, I still had the same issue.
SO, this is what I had to do:
I ticked the [ input 1 +input 2 (record full output) ] and took my right side off my headset and got no latency on my left. Go figure. I have no idea what I'm doing..

Was there ever a fix to this issue??
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmilas View Post
Plugins that introduce high latency cause audio to drop / stutter when they are inserted on parent folder tracks.

Here is a video (unlisted YouTube) presenting the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Ke...ature=youtu.be
Also two of my friends told me they've been having similar issues with folders, so it looks like it's not related to my specific configuration.
Having the same issue. Using folders extensively with high latency plugins and getting dropouts with low CPU usage.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:21 AM   #13
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Been experiencing this for years. Problem is made even worse if you start sending between busses, ie: send your VOX to INST 3/4 for sidechain multiband... if a plugin like Oeksound Soothe or Greg Wells MixCentric is on a bus, everything falls apart.
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Old 02-26-2020, 02:04 PM   #14
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I'm sure it's an infinitely-complex situation and easy for us to armchair-judge... it can't be trivial to keep everything in-sync with plugins on multiple layers of parent/children and sends/receives, but unfortunately this specifically breaks the sorts of plugins you would Want to use on busses -- high-cpu, high-PDC "broad-strokes" plugins like Soothe etc. It creates the situation where we're better off using many instances of Soothe on individual tracks, than a single instance on a folder.
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Old 03-11-2020, 10:39 PM   #15
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That is most probably true. However, having been using Digital Performer, I can say that the most complex structures in mix could be made in it, with tons of plugins everywhere, and the thing wouldn't budge. Which means it can be done, and given the insane amount of talent at Cockos I am sure they will figure it out. Unfortunately Universal Audio do not support Reaper, which means there is that much less deep help from them as far as UAD Plugins go.

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Old 03-12-2020, 12:53 AM   #16
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Please Reaper developers, look into the issue. I have a suspicion it is a matter of some PDC buffer being too short for high latency plugins and that's why we're getting these issues. Perhaps only changing that value or even allowing users to adjust it will sort it out?

It would give us hope to know that at least someone from the developers team is looking into this.
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Old 03-12-2020, 03:06 AM   #17
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I can send in a sample project where that happens.
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:28 AM   #18
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Could we have a sign from one of the developers that this issue is at all taken into account?
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Old 03-31-2020, 09:13 AM   #19
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Having exact same problems over here on OSX Mojave. Come on Reaper Devs - CPU is only at 32%... would appreciate a response.
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Old 03-31-2020, 09:15 AM   #20
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The only solution I have found so far is to mix my session at 48kHz (keeping the original audio at 96Khz - that means cleaning up first at the original resolution with RX and Melodyne). Once the mix has been approved I move back to the original sampling frequency, freeze enough tracks to be able to run the session and render.
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:50 AM   #21
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Having the same problem. Using a couple of acutica audio plugins which have very high latency, will crap out my system (crackles) even though my cpu is only using 10%. This seems to be a problem when used on groups. And switching my buffer up or doesn’t really do much.
Sad, as I am 99% ready to jump ship from pro tools to reaper. But this makes me hesitant.
In cubase and pro tools, this is not a problem. I'm sure its a complex issue, but i'm just saying that other DAWS pull this off just fine.
And yes, would be cool if a dev could chime in

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Old 04-01-2020, 03:38 AM   #22
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I have encountered audio cuts in loop mode with some plugins since a coupe of Reaper releases. It seems some plugins don't correctly reports there latency.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zabukowski View Post
Having the same issue. Using folders extensively with high latency plugins and getting dropouts with low CPU usage.
Same issue here, also including excessively slow response from the interface. Typically have to force-close the program via Windows task manager. CPU and RAM usage well below 50% (as reported by both Reaper and Windows) while this is occurring.
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Old 04-19-2020, 03:17 AM   #24
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Agreed this is a real issue.

I think it's actually really made worse by the fact that Reaper adds a minimum of a FULL buffers worth of PDC per latent plugin, even if the actual plugin creates something tiny like 7 samples of latency.

This is what creates the weird and and unintuitive situation the OP described, where REDUCING soundcard buffer size actually reduces CPU use of certain long plugin chains or heavily latent plugins.

You will probably also notice late into a mix the project gets unresponsive and sluggish on things like play/stop/mute/solo, even if the actual resources aren't being pushed hard. This is caused by the same issue.

This has been discussed before, and Justin actually chimed in saying something along the lines of 'yes there is room for improvement in the way Reaper handles PDC', he also (kind of) confirmed the issue that complex nests of folders + high PDC plugins causes performance issues.

I remember a gif on here someone made, showing that manually routing all tracks to a bus with a high latency plugin on it was much more CPU efficient than doing the exact same routing but via folders/parents. Even though it should technically be the same result, it's not. It was ignored.

I WISH Reaper would handle PDC like literally every other host does. Just adjusting for the REAL plugin latency, not adding a full buffer of PDC per latent plugin in a chain.
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:25 AM   #25
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Ok.

Just tested some more. Its 100% a reaper bug.
If you have a complex bus structure and plugins with high latency built in, on different places in the bus structure, it will crap out (as mentioned).

I just tried disabling the bus structure and routing everything to master, on a project that before had a complex bus structure.
Perfect audio.

This is with a buffer setting of 128.

BUT! if I place coffee (an acustica audio plugin with high latency) on the master bus (thus making 1 "structure" jump), I have to set the buffer to 512 before it works.
So its 100% a reaper bug.
Bus structure messes up the audio engine/delay compensation somehow. The more structure "jumps", the more buffer mess/crackles.
Crap, but thats how it is.
Luckily it can be fixed by manually sending to different tracks instead of using folder track.
A bummer and takes a while to do.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:16 PM   #26
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Just bumping to say I'm experiencing this issue too. CPU is only around 35 percent on an overclocked i7-7700k. If I use a folder as a master bus (with Ozone and Newfangled Elevate) it falls apart, but using the same chain (copy/pasting) to the master bus results in no stuttering.
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:41 AM   #27
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I have made a template with real routing instead of folder tracks, and things work perfectly.

The first grey tracks are for midi (ignore naming)/VI/and audio recording. These are routed so that I will never get any latency no matter what I have on the submaster/master bus.

Other tracks are groups of tracks routed into a sum for each group.

All group sums are then routed to submaster.
Submaster is routed to master (not the real master fader, its just a track called master).

The first grey midi/vi/audio tracks are routed straight to master.

If i treat the submaster as my normal master track, and only insert my masterering plugins (often high latency) on there, I can still always record with the grey tracks without any latency or clicks.

Works perfectly.


I have it attached in this post.
Attached Files
File Type: rpp ComposeTemplate_02.RPP (74.9 KB, 15 views)
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:49 AM   #28
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This work around seems to be working, though the having it work straight inside the folder would be great!
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Old 05-31-2020, 11:59 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the19thbear View Post
I have made a template with real routing instead of folder tracks, and things work perfectly.

The first grey tracks are for midi (ignore naming)/VI/and audio recording. These are routed so that I will never get any latency no matter what I have on the submaster/master bus.

Other tracks are groups of tracks routed into a sum for each group.

All group sums are then routed to submaster.
Submaster is routed to master (not the real master fader, its just a track called master).

The first grey midi/vi/audio tracks are routed straight to master.

If i treat the submaster as my normal master track, and only insert my masterering plugins (often high latency) on there, I can still always record with the grey tracks without any latency or clicks.

Works perfectly.


I have it attached in this post.
That is what I do too. Do you still add folder tracks for organising?
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Old 06-01-2020, 03:33 PM   #30
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Quite glad I've spotted this thread. I've been having an issue with East West's Play plugin, whereby when I have a time selection active and loop is OFF, I get a lagging/pause on the playhead near to the end of the time section when there are plugs on the master. Switch loop on and there is no lag. I don't get this with other VST instruments however.

BUT most of the problem now seems to be from Reaper and this PDC. I tried disabling this on my master channel plugins and it stopped the lag. (See licecap gif) What is the disadvantage of disabling PDC, more latency?

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Old 06-02-2020, 02:04 AM   #31
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I always wire my live instruments to the physical output for live playing. My Master has PDC disabled on plugins.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:35 PM   #32
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Go test a pre release.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod View Post
Go test a pre release.
I'm pretty sure I did test the latest pre and had the same issue, until I disable PDC on master plugs or keep the loop on when I have an active time selection. That's a vague comment, maybe you can elaborate...
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Old 06-03-2020, 01:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Go test a pre release.
Are you saying there is something being done about the PDC on folders??
That would the best info the year!
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:28 PM   #35
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Justin did a revamp of the PDC system a while back. Cant remember which one but should be a part of the current builds.
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Old 06-03-2020, 01:49 PM   #36
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Do you mean the beta ones?
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:07 AM   #37
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Quote:
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Do you mean the beta ones?
Yes, the pre releases.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:22 AM   #38
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That would be awesome. Hope this will be fixed soon But as of now I have a workaound (see earlier post)
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:22 AM   #39
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Quote:
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That is what I do too. Do you still add folder tracks for organising?
No. I dont use folder tracks at all.
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Old 06-04-2020, 02:52 AM   #40
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v6.09+dev0428 - April 28 2020
+ Delay compensation: FX chains can be set to compensate delay Per-FX, Per-chain, or not at all
+ Delay compensation: in record input FX and monitoring FX, when not in ignore delay compensation mode, dry signal is now kept synchronized to wet signal (change from previous behavior)
+ Delay compensation: master FX chain can be set to compensate delay at the hardware-send level

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Previously, PDC was added per plugin in chain, so even if you had, say, 3 plugins that each added 16 samples of latency, and your audio interface buffer size was 128 samples, you would get 384 samples of latency total.

With this new rework, you get 128 samples of latency. You would get another block of latency only if total latency incurred by plugins in the chain exceeds the size of the audio interface buffer. Obviously a huge improvement!
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