Razor Edit Discussion

[sonictim]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Would be awesome to be able to do this across tracks like in Ableton, via shift+click or any other modifier.

You KIND OF already can... Under mouse modifiers, Item, Left Click... you can EXTEND RAZOR EDIT AREA... But it only works on items... it would be great if we also had this option for tracks too!

[amagalma]

Originally Posted by Skorobagatko

Would be awesome to be able to do this across tracks like in Ableton, via shift+click or any other modifier.

Should it make a RE for all tracks from the last touched track to the track under mouse? Or from the selected track? And what should happen if there are more than one selected tracks?

[amagalma]

I think last touched track makes more sense than selected track.





Isn't it?

[deeb]

i did not try but seems like! also i think it could be nice same thing but for create RE between loop locators on last touched tracks !

[sonictim]

Last touched to current track would be my vote for sure! That seems much more intuitive

[Skorobagatko]

Originally Posted by amagalma

I think last touched track makes more sense than selected track.





Isn't it?

Yes, exactly this

[amagalma]

Create Razor Edit from edit cursor & last touched track (or selected envelope) to track (or envelope) under mouse cursor



download here:
amagalma_Create Razor Edit from edit cursor & last touched track (or selected envelope) to track (or envelope) under mouse cursor.lua

[DanSwizer]

What about Area selection in "free item positioning mode"?
I use very often! And I really want to use the "free item positioning" and edit items using the razor edit.

[ferropop]

Vertical/Horizontal locking ! <3

[jazzbat]

Originally Posted by deeb

Alt + right-click drag for single area and alt + shift + right click drag to add another area to the selection - multiple.

Can anyone help a newbie (fresh from Cubase) with this action? I see how to alt + rt click drag to select an area of an item. Someone said (quote above) that I should also be able to alt + shift + rt click drag to add another area to the selection. I cannot recreate this "adding". Does this work on a PC?
Thanks

[sonictim]

Originally Posted by jazzbat

Can anyone help a newbie (fresh from Cubase) with this action? I see how to alt + rt click drag to select an area of an item. Someone said (quote above) that I should also be able to alt + shift + rt click drag to add another area to the selection. I cannot recreate this "adding". Does this work on a PC?
Thanks

Under Reaper Preferences, there's a section called "mouse modifiers". there you can change a lot of the mouse and key combination behaviors... For the Razor Edits, you can look there in the razor edit section and see how everything is set up and what combos to use for different behaviors...

Hope that helps!

[jazzbat]

Originally Posted by sonictim

Under Reaper Preferences, there's a section called "mouse modifiers". there you can change a lot of the mouse and key combination behaviors... For the Razor Edits, you can look there in the razor edit section and see how everything is set up and what combos to use for different behaviors...

Hope that helps!

I will check that out. Thank you!

[amagalma]

Reaper v6.15+dev1109/x64, Windows 10 x64

Ctrl dragging a RE area on an envelope, in order to copy it to another envelope does not work if any of the ripple modes is enabled.

[pepe44]

Hi everyone, i haven´t been focused on the development of Area selection , razor tool.
Any plans when it will come out on a final release ?
What´s missing to make it happen ?
I saw and tested the version that has it and its really good. Congrats to developers and everyone that has been throughout the all process .

All the best.

[mccrabney]

while using RE to copy/move major portions of a project, i'm finding myself wishing that it handled copying the tempo data of that section, as well.

currently, you'd have to make your RE selection, move/copy it elsewhere, and then either recreate or lasso select/copy/paste all tempo data in parallel to your RE movement.

[ferropop]

RE have changed my life; for pop production I can quite honestly say it has doubled the speed of my workflow. That's crazy. Very thankful it finally came.

When envelope trim/expand/compress/tilt/skew happen, it will be a complete feature. And lastly once time selection actions are fully mapped onto RE, we will truly have Area Selection as seen in other modern DAWs.

Hoping for this in 2021.

[n997]

Originally Posted by ferropop

RE have changed my life [...]

Same for me - daily workflow in REAPER has improved considerably due to Razor Edit.

All the work on it is much appreciated!

[vanhaze]

That goes for me also.
RE in Reaper is an awesome 2020 Cockos Gift, i really love it !

[mccrabney]

the new crossfade/don't trim behind options for RE have caused me to notice this bug again:

Default MIDI Overdub is actually extending items (a little bit)

resulting in this:



1- create a midi item that fits to a grid
2- create another midi item after and adjacent to the first
3- overdub across the item boundaries
4- zoom in on the item boundaries
5- ISSUE: the first item has been extended past its item bounds (note, this behavior of extending existing midi items during overdub causes other problems as well
6- next, create an RE spanning the length of the 2nd item and drag it later in the project
7- zoom in on the start of the newly created item
8- ISSUE: if you're not using "trim behind" for REs, you'll see that an unexpected empty midi item is created on top of the old item.

RE is behaving as expected here, but it's really illuminating how bad this bug is:

* if your midi item starts with a midi note, and you accidentally glue one of these erroneous items into the rest of your midi items, you'll push back your note on.
* you have "snap to other items" enabled, these little erroneous items can cause unexpected snapping behavior as the user moves these items/selections. i have disabled "snap to other items" because of this issue, where at high zoom levels you don't know you're off-grid until too late.
* you'll also start littering your project with small empty midi items, like this:



the solution is to fix overdub mode so that midi items do not change size unless specific conditions are met:

1- if a user starts overdub within a midi item's bounds, and the play cursor moves over the midi item end while no midi is being received, that midi item should NOT extend.
2- conversely, if midi is being received while the play cursor moves over the midi item end, it should BEGIN to extend, and not stop extending until recording is terminated or the next midi item begins OR loop end.
3- if a user starts overdub while not within a midi item's bounds, no midi item should be created (current/expected behavior)
4- (continued from 3) when midi is received, a midi item should be created and automatically extend until record is toggled off (current/expected behavior), and
5- should terminate at either beginning of the next midi item or at the loop endpoint.

sorry for the length, i hope i've explained this well.

[FeedTheCat]

Ohh nice, that's my favorite bug

[Vagelis]

I've been wondering, are we going to see RE support for midi editor? Editing notes and events with RE would be very much consistent and useful.
Fingers crossed for envelope manipulation updates and midi editor support in the future.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

I've been wondering, are we going to see RE support for midi editor? Editing notes and events with RE would be very much consistent and useful.
Fingers crossed for envelope manipulation updates and midi editor support in the future.

I was thinking this just today.

Basically stopped using the in-built MIDI CC Editor, and just do everything with ReaControlMIDI to take advantage of Razor Editing.

It's not a good thing. Total visual disconnect from the note manipulation, having to jump up to the project envelopes. I hope this is high on the priority list.

[ferropop]

Especially editing MPE data, a total clusterfuck at the moment Haven't found a way to use ReaControlMIDI to capture/edit the different CC axis of a seaboard yet, so stuck with the MIDI Editor for now

[ferropop]

...ultimately, we have 2 unfinished MIDI implementations right now that I hope are addressed and ultimately made consistent.

1. Arrange View

Pros:
-Razor Edits (!!!). Unquestionably superior editing tool.
-direct manipulation of items (ie, quickly chop/duplicate with RE or drag)
-much more robust and consistent editing of Envelope points/curves with ReaControlMIDI

Cons:
-lacks tactile and robust editing of MIDI notes, so you have to constantly switch between MIDI Editor and Arrange View
-Inline MIDI Editor just doesn't cut it, all the useful mouse modifiers are unavailable
-must use ReaControlMIDI, which is clunky for such a basic operation
-ReaControlMIDI has no MPE workflow

2. MIDI Editor

Pros:
-direct and robust manipulation of MIDI notes
-useful mouse modifiers and actions to streamline workflow
-ability to edit/view multiple lanes together etc
-native CC editing

Cons:
-NO Razor Edits (!!!). Something as simple as wanting to duplicate a bar is riddled with complexity and errors.
-literally everything about editing CC curves is worse than in Arrange View. Inconsistent and clunky-feeling, again end up switching between MIDI Editor and Arrange.
-MPE (multichannel) CC editing is a nightmare. Should be able to select a note and make edits to the CCs directly, but you have to use the MIDI Filter to determine which channel it's on, etc etc etc....almost unusable for this.


===

Ultimately :

1. if the MIDI Editor adopted Razor Edits, and the CC lanes worked exactly like Arrange View's Envelope Lanes with ReaControlMIDI, it would be a complete and functional MIDI Editor and you would rarely need to switch between MIDI Editor and Arrange View.

2. if Arrange View had native CC support without needing ReaControlMIDI, and Inline Editing worked more like the actual MIDI Editor, again we'd be golden.

3. spend even a cursory amount of effort on MPE. Ableton 11 is coming in HEAVY on this

Yes neither solution gets you EVERYTHING, but it would make it so you could do 95% of everything in either Arrange or MIDI Editor, rather than literally having to switch constantly as neither is a complete workflow. Right now it's a constant jump between two totally separate, unaligned sections of the screen. Not good.

my 200 cents

[Vagelis]

Completely agree on all points ferropop. I hope the devs are going to give us a feature complete RE at some point that can be used anywhere in any context as it's already possible with TS. Using different tools for editing while some users prefer to use just one with all the potential it offers is not that good. It is better to use just one tool for most of the tasks regarding editing and that would be RE imo.

It would be great if the devs would combine all the amazing features in one tool, in order to give us a full consistent experience.

I hope and i'm feeling that Reaper's development has reached to a point that needs to polish better some things, and i'm feeling that time has come, for example we see how much work has been done to the Media Explorer, making it even better as much is needed.

Reaper already has many features and it's very powerful. Now it needs to grow mature and polish some existing features to become really amazing.

[mccrabney]

Originally Posted by ferropop

...ultimately, we have 2 unfinished MIDI implementations right now that I hope are addressed and ultimately made consistent.

1. Arrange View Cons:
-lacks tactile and robust editing of MIDI notes, so you have to constantly switch between MIDI Editor and Arrange View
-Inline MIDI Editor just doesn't cut it, all the useful mouse modifiers are unavailable

i faked this demo of what kind of behavior i'd love to see in the arrange screen: here, i pretend to lasso, copy, and paste these notes (i actually copied them in the ME, but you can still paste directly into items in Arrange with the "paste" action)



if i could, i'd probably enter the ME 10x less often if i could lasso select and apply ME actions to midi from the Arrange screen like in the above gif.

[mccrabney]

ferropop, on the subject of CC editing cons, this is what keeps me from using the CC lane for anything other than velocity:

if you have overlapping midi items in your track, and try to draw a cc or pitchbend curve across the two items, you get near-duplicate points printed on the two items. attempting to edit this further will cause a mess where the items have different curve info.



it becomes really inelegant if you're trying to make a pitchbend, which can often happen at the end of a midi item for the loop-around.

this is why i don't really use ccs or pitchbend. editing them in a multi-item scenario is too unpredictable. these signals are 'monophonic' in nature and shouldn't be able to get stacked like that.

using "trim behind" AI instead allows for such monophonic automation. sadly, i don't feel like i can really record AI either, due to this "surfing point" issue that adds an unwanted automation point if you try to record automation.

[schwa]

Moving a long post here from a prerelease thread so it doesn't get lost.

Originally Posted by Embass

1. Envelope inactive after copy paste


2. Behaves diferently when moving on tracks vs envelopes


3. Missing automation..


4. Double click right button while draging area


5. Move automation bug


6. Does not create new track


7. Razor editing buggy in ripple editing mode


8. Area selection not visible in navigator


9. Alows editing when items locked


10. Area moves down but not up


11. Trims automation item


12. Creates ramp


13. Sometimes i need double click to open right click menu. (when arrange view right drag default action 'Create razor edit area')

14. Action 'Razor edit: Clear all areas' does not create undo point

1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11: Fixing, thanks!


3: When you hide a flat volume envelope, the envelope is actually removed and the trim volume is applied to the track. I don't think we can see the track volume fader/knob in your gif, but you would see the volume control move when the envelope is hidden. So there's no volume envelope to move.

[vanhaze]

Thanks so much schwa !

[nofish]

Originally Posted by schwa

3: When you hide a flat volume envelope, the envelope is actually removed and the trim volume is applied to the track. I don't think we can see the track volume fader/knob in your gif, but you would see the volume control move when the envelope is hidden. So there's no volume envelope to move.

Sorry, I know it's actually not the place for it, but since you brought it up: I'd appreciate if that behaviour could made optional at some point:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=157970
(It also seems to lead to user confusion at times as can be seen here and e.g. here.)

[sonictim]

“ 14. Action 'Razor edit: Clear all areas' does not create undo point”

I am very happy this does not create an undo point.... however, perhaps an action “Razor Edit: Restore Last Razor Edit Area Selection” (or perhaps a better name) would be useful/would address the issue Embass is looking to solve. Protools has a “restore previous selection” command which can come in handy from time to time.

Also, thank you again for all your awesome work on RE!! It’s really changed my workflow for the better!

[Embass]

1. Ripple edit all tracks buggy


2. Ripple edit all tracks does not obey option 'Ripple edit all affects tempo map'

[Embass]

Razor edit in ripple editing mode then undo. doesnt work properly..

[ovnis]

I don't undestand why mouse modifier is under exploited. It could resolve so much issues and improve the workflow.

[IrishRover79]

Hi, sorry if I've missed it but what's the little square bracket that's been added to the edit cursor called? And am I right that it indicates the last touched track?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by IrishRover79

Hi, sorry if I've missed it but what's the little square bracket that's been added to the edit cursor called? And am I right that it indicates the last touched track?

Yup, the intersection of the ruler and that track is your paste point.

[ferropop]

Some more important FR:

1. Mouse Modifier to Lock Movement of RE Horizontally/Vertically

2. RE on Master envelope lanes

3. Trim/Skew/Expand/Compress envelope point selection.

[Embass]

Tested on v6.19+dev0104

1. Drawing bug


2. Take name drawing bug


3. Areas go up but not down


4. Move areas bug


6. Should markers/regions move?


7. Does not respect 'Trim content behind automation items when editing or writing automation' option


8. Does not remove automation items in this case


9. Does not split automation items in this case


10. Mouse modifiers 'Move areas backwards' 'Move areas forward' dont work

[Embass]

Cant move, cut etc.. when media item len = 0

[IrishRover79]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Yup, the intersection of the ruler and that track is your paste point.

Thanks!