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Old 10-07-2021, 01:47 AM   #1
Vagelis
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Default Modulators Rack For Parameter Modulation!

Imo one of the places where Reaper lacks is the parameter modulation, which again imo is the alpha and omega for having movement with sounds in sound design.
It would be great if we had a modulators rack, where we could add modulators (clocks, lfo, envelopes, steps sequencers, turing machine, stochastic attractors etc...) and be able to modulate any fx parameter but also to modulate the parameters of the modulators too.
So for example the rate of an lfo, shape, phase or anything else.

Also very important is to have the possibility to modulate the reset of these modulators with other modulators so they could reset on given time by other sources. Same thing to trigger envelopes or anything else that has a gate/trigger with other modulators/sources.
Combining all the above would lead to extremely nice evolving modulations and opens up lots of possibilities.

The modulator's rack could be based per track, for making the connections there could be a matrix window just like pin connector, which could be opened from the top right corner.
With option to add the sources from the horizontal row and the destinations from the vertical row. Then clicking on the block just like pin connector, would make the connection between them.
Also each connection block could have a small knob (right click to display?) to attenuate or set the min/max range of the modulation depth.

EXAMPLE!
Source: Reapitch_shift/Destination:Lfo1 ,OR Source: Rate lfo1/Destination: Lfo2.

Alternatively, it would be nice to do this with modular cables too, or with drag n drop.

This could bring a huge amount of ideas and inspiration to work with sound and will give a better movement with modulations.

It would be great also if scripters could create they're own modulator modules to add to the rack.

*Another example without a mod matrix, with the plugin on top and below the modulators for fast and easy assignments with drag n drop:

Last edited by Vagelis; 05-25-2022 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 10-10-2021, 07:58 PM   #2
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I vote for this. Would really help my sound design workflow.
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Old 10-10-2021, 10:10 PM   #3
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This and a Fx Container, man, sound design heaven. +1
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Old 10-10-2021, 10:59 PM   #4
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I use parameter modulation very frequently and this would be an awesome enhancement!
A big +1 from me.
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Old 10-14-2021, 01:33 AM   #5
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Glad to see more people are interested to this.

I really miss a good modulation system, also a rack, except it could give us more potential with modulations, it could help a lot to see them easier/faster and organize them.
Now it's not very practical to click a parameter each time and then param dropdown menu to see which parameter is modulated, in case we want to disable/change it.

I hope the devs will look into it for the future.

Last edited by Vagelis; 10-14-2021 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 10-14-2021, 01:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonalstates View Post
This and a Fx Container, man, sound design heaven. +1
Yep this and a better sampler, RS5000 needs desperately a good update with more features so we could enjoy sampling in Reaper, then it would be really sound design heaven.
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Old 10-14-2021, 05:01 AM   #7
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Is a "Modulators Rack" not something like a Control surface device (see the appropriate forum) in Software ?

AFAIK there are several of those and thy could remote-control, Reaper Parameters by Midi or OSC.
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Old 10-14-2021, 06:15 AM   #8
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Hi Michael, it's not related with midi controller devices. Imagine a rack where you can add lets say from the existing modulators an lfo, but in this rack you can add as many you want side by side and see them visually as for example you can see a horizontal row of modules in vcv rack or blocks in reaktor.

So in this rack for example, we could have a horizontal row to the top with drop down menus, where we can choose the fx and parameter to modulate, and next to the bottom, a row where we can add the modulators to send the parameter.
Some ideas to send the parameters to modulators would be with drag n drop, wires or dropdown menus. Same thing in case we want to send a modulator's parameters to other modulators.

Something like this would help modulating different parameters mush easier and faster, because we won't need to choose separately each parameter to modulate it, like it is now, we could change them or choose any parameter we want from the rack , because it's going to be based per track.
And we will have a visual reference of our modulations for any changes or in case we want to organize better.
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Old 10-14-2021, 06:31 AM   #9
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Some additional options from rack window could be save/load presets for use in other projects.(saving a nice combination of modulators would be nice)

A dropdown menu to choose different track. (in order to see the modulators of another track)

Randomize modulator parameters :P
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Old 10-14-2021, 07:00 AM   #10
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Just had another idea for sends with another view, the matrix view.
Similar to a modulation matrix in a synth, or reaper's pin connector window.

With option to add the source from the horizontal row and the destinations from the vertical row. Then clicking on the block just like pin connector, would make the connection between them.
Also each connection block could have a small knob (right click to display?) to attenuate or set the min/max range of the modulation depth.

-Clicking on the fx or modulators, will open/show each of them in the rack when we want to change their parameters.

I think i like this idea for sends and it's very close to reaper way.

(updated το the main post)

Last edited by Vagelis; 10-14-2021 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 10-29-2021, 02:44 PM   #11
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I totally second this! As a neuro/glitch producer, it would be an excellent addition to my sound design workflow. I think mod remaps would also be cool, maybe some modulators from Bespoke and Vital.

Last edited by Stevan; 10-29-2021 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 10-29-2021, 03:18 PM   #12
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This is what I picture:



An LFO (Sin/Triangle/Random etc) that sits in the FX rack.

You drag from the circle onto the destination of what you want to modulate. It can be to multiple plugins, and each connection has the usual controls for %, positive, negative, centered modulation etc. Frequency can be Hz or BPM-based.

This isn't that crazy of an idea, any synth's modulation rack is a perfect model -- Serum and Vital especially.

Honestly this is the most basic possible req in comparison to the super mature FX racks/macros and modulators in BitWig/Ableton.
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Old 10-29-2021, 03:26 PM   #13
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I would definitely dig into a modulator rack.
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Old 10-29-2021, 04:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
This is what I picture:



An LFO (Sin/Triangle/Random etc) that sits in the FX rack.

You drag from the circle onto the destination of what you want to modulate. It can be to multiple plugins, and each connection has the usual controls for %, positive, negative, centered modulation etc. Frequency can be Hz or BPM-based.

This isn't that crazy of an idea, any synth's modulation rack is a perfect model -- Serum and Vital especially.

Honestly this is the most basic possible req in comparison to the super mature FX racks/macros and modulators in BitWig/Ableton.
This is a good idea! Though I would like to see more advanced modulators, like MSEGs (I like the idea of morphable MSEGs, like the one from FKFX Obvious Filter), CV, random modulators, etc.
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Old 11-13-2021, 09:28 PM   #15
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Just came across this! I'm super into this idea. The way Reaper handles modulation right now feels slightly clunky and doesn't lend itself to experimentation.
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Old 11-14-2021, 01:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonalstates View Post
This and a Fx Container, man, sound design heaven. +1
Is not an item with item fx an fx container? Or what is missing there in which use case scenarios?
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Old 11-14-2021, 01:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
I use parameter modulation very frequently and this would be an awesome enhancement!
A big +1 from me.
We should start a parameter modulation tips and tricks thread, workflows in specific scenarios with given goals.
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Old 11-14-2021, 01:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Yep this and a better sampler, RS5000 needs desperately a good update with more features so we could enjoy sampling in Reaper, then it would be really sound design heaven.
No, just tell what you are missing in which scenario for which goal. Be specific.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Is not an item with item fx an fx container? Or what is missing there in which use case scenarios?
There's no central way to see (let alone control) parameter modulation. It's per-plugin and hidden deep within menus, it's just not complete or easily creatively accessible.

Take BitWig or Ableton as examples. https://youtu.be/WbJKjwwEIGk

Big takeaways:

1. Everything sits in a rack for easy reference
2. Modulate from the source to any destination (and multiple)
3. Modulate modulators, and be able to see that routing easily
4. Macros

This lends itself SO naturally to creativity that once using it you feel limbless going back to anything less.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:16 PM   #20
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Here's a (hypothetical) example, using ReaSynth to keep it as simple as possible.

I want to create a detuned pad using two saw waves, one L one R, and create instability between the two channels so they are really wide and lofi.

1. Insert two ReaSynth instances, set both to Saw, pan one L and one R.
2. Create a (hypothetical) Random Modulator
3. Attach modulator to Tuning of each instance
4. Set Strength Direction and Phase of modulation to be slightly different for each destination

Instant lofi warbling beautiful detuned saws.

How about some random HF fluctuations that are different for L and R? Again, create a different Random (or cyclic) modulator, modulate a ReaEQ for each channel differently.

Let's add some interesting delays that have some instability -- let's reuse the Random modulator from the Detuning and attach it to the Delay Rate of a delay, maybe at like 5% just to introduce some of that classic delay-shift artifacting. All of this is plainly visible, clean, and obvious that THIS MODULATOR is going to THESE DESTINATIONS, and this is the amount it is modulating, and the direction, and the phase. Nothing hidden, just plain-as-day presentation for something that can get extremely complex at the best of times.

Delicious.

Literally making this up as I go, but this is the creative headspace of "trying to build what you think up as you go", and without the tools to do these things easily, 9/10 times it just ends in not bothering.
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Old 12-01-2021, 01:11 PM   #21
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I would love if we could open the plugins inside another environment like Grid in Bitwig, where we could use modular synthesis for the connections. Nothing less than the track wiring diagram in Reaper, I wish the devs would implement the same thing but for loading vsts and modulators.
Doing this with modular would be amazing because then we could modulate the parameters fast and easy and also send the triggers and resets to other modulators so they would modulate in sync.
I really hope the devs will look into it in the future because parameter modulation in Reaper is still kind of simple and we can't see the modulations fast and easy or make more advanced modulations... It would be SO useful for sound design.
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Old 12-01-2021, 01:22 PM   #22
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An example for the above suggestion in order to open the plugins in the modular rack could be with an option from the fx chain to open/view the plugins in the modular rack for modulations.
So we could change the view each time we want to modulate something or leave it as it is when we don't to just add new plugins in the fx chain.
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Old 01-19-2022, 02:08 AM   #23
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+1 for this
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Old 03-02-2022, 02:45 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
This is what I picture:

Honestly this is the most basic possible req in comparison to the super mature FX racks/macros and modulators in BitWig/Ableton.
Honestly, I kind of losing hope in the developers when it comes to parameter modulation and racks...

This is probably the one most if not the most giant improvement that they can add to their software currently in term of user experience and they do just nothing, zero and from what I saw it is the same for more than 13 years already.

this is absurd.
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Old 03-04-2022, 11:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
Imo one of the places where Reaper lacks is the parameter modulation, which again imo is the alpha and omega for having movement with sounds in sound design.
It would be great if we had a modulators rack, where we could add modulators (clocks, lfo, envelopes, steps sequencers, turing machine, stochastic attractors etc...) and be able to modulate any fx parameter but also to modulate the parameters of the modulators too.
So for example the rate of an lfo, shape, phase or anything else.

Also very important is to have the possibility to modulate the reset of these modulators with other modulators so they could reset on given time by other sources. Same thing to trigger envelopes or anything else that has a gate/trigger with other modulators/sources.
Combining all the above would lead to extremely nice evolving modulations and opens up lots of possibilities.

The modulator's rack could be based per track, for making the connections there could be a matrix window just like pin connector, which could be opened from the top right corner.
With option to add the sources from the horizontal row and the destinations from the vertical row. Then clicking on the block just like pin connector, would make the connection between them.
Also each connection block could have a small knob (right click to display?) to attenuate or set the min/max range of the modulation depth.

EXAMPLE!
Source: Reapitch_shift/Destination:Lfo1 ,OR Source: Rate lfo1/Destination: Lfo2.

Alternatively, it would be nice to do this with modular cables too, or with drag n drop.

This could bring a huge amount of ideas and inspiration to work with sound and will give a better movement with modulations.

It would be great also if scripters could create they're own modulator modules to add to the rack.
+1000000000000 for this! I've long desired to have a more comprehensive parameter modulation section, particularly with the ability to modulate modulators in a variety of ways. This would be soooooo ace!!
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Old 03-08-2022, 04:01 AM   #26
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+1000000000000 for this! I've long desired to have a more comprehensive parameter modulation section, particularly with the ability to modulate modulators in a variety of ways. This would be soooooo ace!!
Indeed, parameter modulation is pretty limited now, I hope the devs will take a look on this to make it more advanced and user friendly.
It would be very nice if it was possible for scripters to make their own modulators and add them in a rack.
I believe having a better parameter modulation, could take Reaper to the next level for sound design.
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Old 03-08-2022, 06:38 AM   #27
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We can get most of what you’ve asked for just by using plugins to generate the modulations - either as MIDI CCs or audio “CV” or even just as wiggling sliders. The final step of actually linking the control “messages” to FX parameters would happen in the PM window, but the rest of it can, has, and is being done with plugins already.
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Old 03-08-2022, 07:00 AM   #28
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We can get most of what you’ve asked for just by using plugins to generate the modulations - either as MIDI CCs or audio “CV” or even just as wiggling sliders. The final step of actually linking the control “messages” to FX parameters would happen in the PM window, but the rest of it can, has, and is being done with plugins already.
I'm not sure we can do what i'm asking right now and CC is 128 steps.. Also we can't modulate the parameters of a modulator for example the rate, ampitude or phase of an lfo.
We don't have enough modulators to make more interesting modulations and combine them together. We can't send an lfo to reset the playback of another lfo.
We don't have an envelope or step sequencer with trigger function and send the trigger to a clock or an lfo so it triggers with their speed. For example if we want to modulate more than one parameters of a plugin and to be in sync all of them, we could use different modulators with different parameter values and all of them to be triggered or reset from the same source e.g a clock.
We can't have more than one lfos to modulate the same parameter. (this would be interesting to do with different modulators)
We don't even have a proper stepped random shape in the lfo...
A rack would help a lot to see all the modulations and routings in a single window(rack). Right now it is a mess working with many modulations..
The plugins can't do most of the above (reset an lfo with another lfo?) this is more like a modular way of making modulations which is the best for this purpose and a native rack that could make modulations this way (with drag n drop or a pin modulation matrix or virtual cables) would be much much better than adding extra plugins. The best example is to watch a video about modulation in Bitwig
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Old 03-08-2022, 09:39 AM   #29
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Oh you certainly can. It might be true that some of the plugins you want haven’t been written yet, but there’s a bunch of modulator type things out there. The ReaRack suite is pretty exhaustive and can use either hi-rez MIDI or audio as the control messages.
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Old 03-08-2022, 09:54 AM   #30
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The Bitwig modulation system is pretty amazing. Intuitive, quick, and super fun to use.

Something built natively into Reaper with a nice overview panel (per track, but global modulators between tracks would also be cool) would be killer.
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Old 03-08-2022, 10:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Oh you certainly can. It might be true that some of the plugins you want haven’t been written yet, but there’s a bunch of modulator type things out there. The ReaRack suite is pretty exhaustive and can use either hi-rez MIDI or audio as the control messages.
Yep, i'm aware of Rearack, i'm using the lfo step random shape since the native lfo doesn't have one, but still it's nothing close to what i'm suggesting.
For example if you open the envelope module where the trigger is, how can i send this to trigger with another lfo or a clock? How can i reset an lfo with another source? It's impossible.
Also the UI is not user friendly since most of the modules take a lot of space, then i need to add each module one by one as a separate fx. Also doing the routings with cc it takes a lot more time than the way we do parameter modulation. And it's not useful to see all the routings as it would be possible within a single rack and parameter modulation, on the contrary with CC, i have to open every time the fx to see which parameter i'm modulating with a specific CC number since i can't see the parameter name, then go back to the modulator with this CC assigned to finally see the routing. (imagine this with many modulations in a single project)
Now imagine how fast and easy would be to make all the routings in a single rack window ...
I think it's not even close on how it should be natively done for a better UX.
As much as i love Reaper, i can't deny that Bitwig is miles ahead on any of the above...
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Old 03-08-2022, 10:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
The Bitwig modulation system is pretty amazing. Intuitive, quick, and super fun to use.

Something built natively into Reaper with a nice overview panel (per track, but global modulators between tracks would also be cool) would be killer.
1000000%! Reaper's modulation system is pretty obsolete compared to Bitwig, sorry but it's true. I hope the devs will update the whole modulation system and make it more advanced and user friendly.
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Old 03-08-2022, 10:36 AM   #33
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I hope the devs will update the whole modulation system and make it more advanced and user friendly.
Would love to see that.
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Old 03-08-2022, 11:00 AM   #34
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I'm not sure we can do what i'm asking right now and CC is 128 steps..
Never heard of high resolution CC (16384 steps).

Reaper is perfectly able to use those.

Many JSFX plugins in Reapack also do.

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....
JSFX plugins can do most of this.

-Michael
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Old 03-08-2022, 11:15 AM   #35
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Never heard of high resolution CC (16384 steps).

Reaper is perfectly able to use those.

Many JSFX plugins in Reapack also do.
Ok good to know.

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JSFX plugins can do most of this.

-Michael
Since you are so sure about it, can you show me how i can send the trigger of an envelope to an lfo and the reset of the lfo back to it with jsfx ?
How's that possible and where are those jsfxs? Because if you mean Rearack i already mentioned that these stuff are not possible.
Also i'm not a jsfx programmer and i don't like using separate jsfx to modulate parameters, i explained many of the reasons above, that's why i made this request towards devs to make it natively.

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Old 03-08-2022, 11:30 PM   #36
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(I did not say existing JSFX plugins. Complex unusual stuff might need some programming.)

An envelope can move the "slider" (parameter) of a JSFX.

The JSFX can do an LFO wave which is reset when the slider e.g. is above some value).

The wave is output as (HiRes) CC.

The CC is used by parameter Modulation for some plugin.

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Old 03-09-2022, 02:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
We can get most of what you’ve asked for just by using plugins to generate the modulations - either as MIDI CCs or audio “CV” or even just as wiggling sliders.
And outside of the REAPER ecosystem there are more self-contained modulation rack plugins like Melda's MCCGenerator (part of the MFreeFX bundle but not actually free as you need to pay $50 or $25 on sale to access the modulators) or Dialog Audio's Modulation Processor, both of which output hi-res MIDI on any channels you like and have a plethora of options for modulation - all themselves fully automatable, with nice feedback and oscilloscopes etc.

But yes it would be nice if there were workflow / visualisation improvements to REAPER's PM system. I love using automation items and once beefed up with plugins like Julian Sader's multi tool they can be almost as fast and intuitive for experimenting in real time as parameter modulation. But when I'm in a musical zone, I want to reach for a reliable stash of pulses, rhythms and envelopes to swap in and out with the elements on the arranger, and if AIs could do this somehow, then the workflow in REAPER would be Bitwig beating (I do like Bitwig and used version 2 a fair bit).
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Old 03-09-2022, 05:51 AM   #38
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(I did not say existing JSFX plugins. Complex unusual stuff might need some programming.)

An envelope can move the "slider" (parameter) of a JSFX.

The JSFX can do an LFO wave which is reset when the slider e.g. is above some value).

The wave is output as (HiRes) CC.

The CC is used by parameter Modulation for some plugin.

-Michael
Ok, but there are no jsfx modulators that can do this yet i guess. Imagine to have a plugin with 5 parameters and i want to modulate all of them with different modulators. One parameter with an lfo, the other with an envelope, the other with another lfo, the other with a step sequencer and all of them to trigger or reset by a clock in order to have more control for the time they sync or reset together. then i want to modulate the clock divisions with one of the random modulators, so that the clock changes time for the modulators to reset or sync on different time divisions randomly. Then i want to modulate the attack of the envelope with one of the already used lfos or any of the modulators.
A rack could let me do this since everything would be on the same window and i could see the routings and experiment to my taste. This freedom is missing and even if there where jsfxs as separate plugins, it wouldn't be user friendly for this type of advanced modulations.
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Old 03-09-2022, 06:05 AM   #39
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And outside of the REAPER ecosystem there are more self-contained modulation rack plugins like Melda's MCCGenerator (part of the MFreeFX bundle but not actually free as you need to pay $50 or $25 on sale to access the modulators) or Dialog Audio's Modulation Processor, both of which output hi-res MIDI on any channels you like and have a plethora of options for modulation - all themselves fully automatable, with nice feedback and oscilloscopes etc.
Tried them all already, nothing close to modular routings, one thing is for sure, can't beat a modular regarding modulations. But this type of stuff could be done also with a modulation matrix or drag n drop for some people who doesn't like to work with virtual cables. I even made my own plugin in Reaktor from scratch, but still, nothing close to a rack with many modulators which could be combined together.
Here's my plugin prototype https://imgur.com/cM4ZoeZ

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But yes it would be nice if there were workflow / visualisation improvements to REAPER's PM system. I love using automation items and once beefed up with plugins like Julian Sader's multi tool they can be almost as fast and intuitive for experimenting in real time as parameter modulation. But when I'm in a musical zone, I want to reach for a reliable stash of pulses, rhythms and envelopes to swap in and out with the elements on the arranger, and if AIs could do this somehow, then the workflow in REAPER would be Bitwig beating (I do like Bitwig and used version 2 a fair bit).
yeah nothing close to modular routings or modulations with a variety of modulators compared to automation items. Also automation items is just an envelope/step sequencer and it happens on the arrange, a rack could have many other modulators to experiment with different modulations for sound design.
Bitwig is the king right now and does this GREAT.
You can modulate parameters with drag n drop, including to send anywhere else the reset or trigger, but it has also the grid , which is like a rack with a bunch of modulators where they can be combined with virtual cables.
I have done something similar in Reaktor, by sending CC numbers from Reaper into Reaktor and then modulating them with any modulator in a modular way, but still it's not as user friendly as it would be if it was natively implemented like in Bitwig.
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Old 03-09-2022, 06:51 AM   #40
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Just because you can’t imagine how to do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done, and just because the exact plugin you want doesn’t exist doesn’t mean they couldn’t be written. Anyway, this is my understanding of the devs’ attitude on this request so far: You can do it in plugins with far more flexibility than anything they’d ever be able to implement. This feature request explodes into hundreds more as everybody wants that one more modulate that does X, or does Y just a little bit differently from the one we’ve already got…

Also, you keep saying “modular”. Well, there isn’t much more modular than plugins. Each plugin is a module, and can be combined with just about any other to manipulate signals in whatever weird and wonderful ways you can come up with. In an analog modular synth, there is no real distinction between control signals and audio. They’re all just voltages that you patch around as you see fit. But you want to take just the control elements and segment them off into some separate space where they are treated differently and can’t be combined with or manipulated by any of the other methods we have available for processing audio and midi. Off in their own rack doing their own thing. It really doesn’t make as much sense as you seem to think. Especially since you want that rack to look pretty much exactly like the FX chains that we already have. Oh, and are you going to give us a way to write “plugins” for that rack? Or use third party plugins?

I think you will get much further by requesting help with using existing plugins, new/changes to features in those plugins, or just drop by the JS forum and request something that does what you want.
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