Old 08-12-2017, 07:13 AM   #161
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I mean nothing above 0 in the soundcloud version, not the version you uploaded. Or at least nothing that would go above 0 in the soundcloud version, which it doesn't seem to allow for.

Your last plot zoomed in on the square waves definitely shows values above 0 on the bottom waveform.

Let me put it another way. If you feed soundcloud a quiet enough version, that it's output no longer tries and fails to produce a waveform with peaks above 0, do the square waves then behave correctly?

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Old 08-12-2017, 07:20 AM   #162
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I mean nothing above 0 in the soundcloud version, not the version you uploaded.

Your last plot zoomed in on the square waves definitely shows values above 0 on the bottom waveform.
i uploaded a file with a peak level of -6 dBFS, true peak level of about -3.8 dBTP.
the soundcloud file streamed/recorded level was about -3.4 dBFS peak.
the bandcamp file streamed/recorded level was about -9 dBFS peak.

i normalized them both in iZotope RX5 so i could view them on the same scale...

please see the "raw" waveforms in the post above your last.
nothing even close to 0 in the streams. (RX5 meter shot shows this and so do the raw recorded waveforms)
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:25 AM   #163
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Perhaps I'm getting mixed up here.



Does that plot not show values above 0 on the bottom waveform?

Which waveform is the bottom one?

And, I'm still curious for the sake of understand why I'm seeing what I'm seeing, if the square wave in the soundcloud version gets better again if you reduce it's level in the source even further, or does it still stay flawed?

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Old 08-12-2017, 07:35 AM   #164
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Perhaps I'm getting mixed up here.
i removed that post because it seems to be causing confusion.
i will say again...i normalized the streamed/recorded files to view them on the same scale (because of the 3 dB discrepency). in hindsight, i should have just gained up the one that was 3 dB down (bandcamp)
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:38 AM   #165
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OK, thanks. That just leaves my last question. Does the soundcloud version of the square wave behave correctly with any level in the source file, or can you reduce it's volume in the source forever, and still get the same artifacts in the soundcloud version?

Hopefully I've expressed that clearly enough for you to understand what I'm trying to test.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:35 AM   #166
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OK, thanks. That just leaves my last question. Does the soundcloud version of the square wave behave correctly with any level in the source file, or can you reduce it's volume in the source forever, and still get the same artifacts in the soundcloud version?

Hopefully I've expressed that clearly enough for you to understand what I'm trying to test.
i just tested (soundcloud only) with levels ranging from -24 dBFS to 0 dBFS (6dB increments) and the only file to show a noticeable difference was the 0 dBFS file (because it's clipped during conversion.)
all of the others levels were basically the same as far as waveforms/artifacts are concerned (same level/type of distortion).
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:37 AM   #167
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Now its getting interesting! Thanks for doing this. How are you recording the stream?
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:10 AM   #168
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Says the guy who started with this:



and then dribbled unintelligible stuff about "signals".


Are you actually going to deal with what I have presented? You haven't demonstrated any real understanding of what actually takes place technically. I actually work with audio streaming systems in radio stations.

When is this utter destruction of everything I just said scheduled for? I wouldn't want to miss it!
I've actually explained it to you with perfectly good illustrations that seemed to have flown over your head. Idk what more do you want? Do you prefer to listen to music on an iPod or a 70's battery-operated transistor radio? Does that help?
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:22 AM   #169
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i uploaded a file with a peak level of -6 dBFS, true peak level of about -3.8 dBTP.
the soundcloud file streamed/recorded level was about -3.4 dBFS peak.
the bandcamp file streamed/recorded level was about -9 dBFS peak.

i normalized them both in iZotope RX5 so i could view them on the same scale...

please see the "raw" waveforms in the post above your last.
nothing even close to 0 in the streams. (RX5 meter shot shows this and so do the raw recorded waveforms)
So if I'm following you here, SC actually does turn up the volume louder than BC? Thanks for doing the legwork on this, btw.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:44 PM   #170
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Now its getting interesting! Thanks for doing this. How are you recording the stream?
i'm using Soundflower to record the stream into Reaper.

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So if I'm following you here, SC actually does turn up the volume louder than BC? Thanks for doing the legwork on this, btw.
the increase in level is due to soundcloud's conversion process, it's not an intentional level increase (ie..they do not add gain, it's a "side effect").
bandcamp actually does turn the file down 3 dB, though.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:46 PM   #171
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Bonsoir !
Faced with the threat of closing Soundcloud, I opened a Hearthis.com account and published my entire catalog.
Hearthis.com allowing you to choose streaming bitrate, I set it at 320kbps.
Among my last productions here is a little piece for piano. The same Flac file from Reaper render was uploaded to Soundcloud and Hearthis.at :

Soundcloud version :
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/sautillette

Version Hearthis.at (320kbps) :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/sautillette/

Can you hear a difference ?
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:54 PM   #172
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I've actually explained it to you with perfectly good illustrations that seemed to have flown over your head. Idk what more do you want? Do you prefer to listen to music on an iPod or a 70's battery-operated transistor radio? Does that help?
If you think you explained yourself clearly with good illustrations then I suggest you never become a teacher. If you do know what you're talking about you're doing an awfully good job of sounding like someone who's confidence in their abilities is badly out of proportion with their understanding and ability to communicate.

You were acting like a dick from your first post in this thread, and things haven't improved since then.

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Old 08-12-2017, 06:56 PM   #173
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i'm using Soundflower to record the stream into Reaper.
Can you point me at your soundcloud page with the square waves? I'd like to see if the result is still the same directly downloading the MP3, rather than recording it through soundflower to make sure that it's not an artifact of the playback/recording process. That will help to isolate whether it's an encoding problem, or something else.

Quote:
the increase in level is due to soundcloud's conversion process, it's not an intentional level increase (ie..they do not add gain, it's a "side effect").
bandcamp actually does turn the file down 3 dB, though.
When I directly downloaded the MP3 of the same song from soundcloud and bandcamp reaper showed exactly the same level for each track. I think any level difference in happening at playback time.

I can test this again if you don't mind pointing me at the soundcloud and bandcamp pages with the same square wave.

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Old 08-12-2017, 07:15 PM   #174
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If you think you explained yourself clearly with good illustrations then I suggest you never become a teacher. If you do know what you're talking about you're doing an awfully good job of sounding like someone who's confidence in their abilities is badly out of proportion with their understanding and ability to communicate.

You were acting like a dick from your first post in this thread, and things haven't improved since then.
Funny I do lot's of explaining to people lots of things on a regular basis. I don't seem to get the reactions you're giving me. Oh, well. Maybe your abilities to get a cl00 is badly out of proportion with your ability to... get a cl00
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:21 PM   #175
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Bonsoir !
Faced with the threat of closing Soundcloud, I opened a Hearthis.com account and published my entire catalog.
Hearthis.com allowing you to choose streaming bitrate, I set it at 320kbps.
Among my last productions here is a little piece for piano. The same Flac file from Reaper render was uploaded to Soundcloud and Hearthis.at :

Soundcloud version :
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/sautillette

Version Hearthis.at (320kbps) :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/sautillette/

Can you hear a difference ?
I thought that site was mainly EDM/House/HipHop stuff~! Nice to know they got a bit more of a variety. I've had a coupla trax up since the end of May.

And I can tell a difference~! Hearthis is MUCH clearer, brighter, more fuller sounding. At least to the naked ear without volume matching anyway.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:24 PM   #176
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the increase in level is due to soundcloud's conversion process, it's not an intentional level increase (ie..they do not add gain, it's a "side effect"). bandcamp actually does turn the file down 3 dB, though
So can we safely say then that those who've raised issued here re SC's product aren't totally looney tunes? Are we vindicated, yet?
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:25 PM   #177
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Funny I do lot's of explaining to people lots of things on a regular basis. I don't seem to get the reactions you're giving me. Oh, well. Maybe your abilities to get a cl00 is badly out of proportion with your ability to... get a cl00
Where does this fit into your quality teaching style:

Quote:
Okay... so would you like me to utterly destroy everything you just said now or...? I could wait a little if you prefer
Part of what I do for a living is training technical and production staff. Being a dick never helped that process.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:27 PM   #178
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So can we safely say then that those who've raised issued here re SC's product aren't totally looney tunes? Are we vindicated, yet?
What we can say at this point is that we can *see* some artifacts, but that's a different issue to whether they make an audible difference.

If the difference with real music material was large, then the soundcloud and bandcamp versions of the songs wouldn't mostly null, and they do.

Either the difference is not very audible, or it's something to do with the playback/capture process we are using to examine these sine waves.

Playing the soundcloud and bandcamp version of the same song in reaper with one track having flipped polarity, there are difference, but there are large sections where they null perfectly. So for most of the song they do sound EXACTLY the same.

The process we're going through now it to nail down exactly what causes what we see, and if it is an encoding artifact, that will effect everything, even stuff you just directly download, or if it's to do with the way soundcloud plays back audio and/or what happens when you record that through soundflower.

When bezusheist points me at the relevant audio examples, I will directly download them, taking any playback and recording processes out of the picture, and see how the waveforms look then.

I'm not trying to push a position on this issue. I'm trying to prove whatever there is that can be proved so that we can all have a realistic perspective on exactly what is going on here, and you do that with logic and testing. That's why we're trying different things and looking at the results.

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Old 08-12-2017, 07:45 PM   #179
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Part of what I do for a living is training technical and production staff. Being a dick never helped that process
True 'dat... but nobody's paying me to teach you

I don't particularly perceive being a "dick"... I'm just brutally honest, that's all.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:52 PM   #180
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True 'dat... but nobody's paying me to teach you

I don't particularly perceive being a "dick"... I'm just brutally honest, that's all.
So how come you are completely unable to deal with any of the points I raised. Weren't you going to utterly destroy everything I said?

We're doing the work to actually test and be sure of what we do and don't know. Exactly what have you contributed to this process, other than talking smack?

Go on, destroy away. Tell me everything that I'm horribly wrong about.

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Old 08-12-2017, 08:11 PM   #181
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How is this thread still going? The average person couldn't hardly hear the difference between a 128k mp3 from the mid 90's and platinum-plated vinyl pressed and blessed by Jesus Christ himself.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:42 PM   #182
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If you think you explained yourself clearly with good illustrations then I suggest you never become a teacher. If you do know what you're talking about you're doing an awfully good job of sounding like someone who's confidence in their abilities is badly out of proportion with their understanding and ability to communicate.
.
I was going to say, if the critical thinking in audio students needed a textbook example of audiophillic Dunning Kruger Effect, there it was
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:44 PM   #183
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So can we safely say then that those who've raised issued here re SC's product aren't totally looney tunes? Are we vindicated, yet?
I don't know if anyone was actually arguing that.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:22 AM   #184
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Can you point me at your soundcloud page with the square waves? I'd like to see if the result is still the same directly downloading the MP3, rather than recording it through soundflower to make sure that it's not an artifact of the playback/recording process. That will help to isolate whether it's an encoding problem, or something else.
wow! my first fan ! and they said soundcloud would ruin my career...!
here you go...some test files...
https://soundcloud.com/user-882613510/tracks

i uploaded 44.1kHz/32 bit float .wav files, so i dont think you can download mp3, can you ?

edit:
just added the same files to a bandcamp page...
https://bezusheist.bandcamp.com
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:16 AM   #185
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wow! my first fan ! and they said soundcloud would ruin my career...!
here you go...some test files...
https://soundcloud.com/user-882613510/tracks

i uploaded 44.1kHz/32 bit float .wav files, so i dont think you can download mp3, can you ?
Yep. When you upload a track to bandcamp or soundcloud it makes and stores an MP3 version at 128k for playback when someone like me goes to your page on their site.

Instead of playing that 128k mp3 player through the mp3 player web app on their page, I just download the mp3 directly to my HDD with a firefox plugin.

Can download youtube videos using the same process.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:52 AM   #186
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i would say the biggest difference between soundcloud vs. bandcamp streaming is the low pass filter that soundcloud uses (...i believe someone brought this up already).
i uploaded (1 sample @ -6 dbfs) pulse files to get the impulse responses and this is what i got recording the streams...
soundcloud = blue
bandcamp = white

(*"perfect" would be a flat line from DC to Nyquist)
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:23 AM   #187
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Whoa! Bandcamp uses an mp3 encoder that goes past 20k?
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:32 AM   #188
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Whoa! Bandcamp uses an mp3 encoder that goes past 20k?
BatCamp
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:31 PM   #189
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I don't know if anyone was actually arguing that.

Pretty much the general tone has been "Anyone who thinks what's implied in the article linked in the OP must be fulla bullshit." When Bezusheist showed up, the tone changed to something more business-like for the most part.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:38 PM   #190
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So how come you are completely unable to deal with any of the points I raised
What points?

Quote:
Weren't you going to utterly destroy everything I said?
After listening to smack about the inherent point in the title of the OP, I would think a little element of sardonic wit wouldn't fly too far over your head?

Quote:
Go on, destroy away. Tell me everything that I'm horribly wrong about
Not "horribly wrong" so much as I just don't think the method you were using is going to tell us much of anything. If you hate the sound on your transistor radio, you exchange it for a nice stereo. You don't try and figure out if the record being played on it has too many scratches or not. Least, I don't.

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Old 08-13-2017, 02:08 PM   #191
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i would say the biggest difference between soundcloud vs. bandcamp streaming is the low pass filter that soundcloud uses (...i believe someone brought this up already).
i uploaded (1 sample @ -6 dbfs) pulse files to get the impulse responses and this is what i got recording the streams...
soundcloud = blue
bandcamp = white

(*"perfect" would be a flat line from DC to Nyquist)
What that says to me, anyway - is "Muffled sound with the potential for distortion upon increase of gain due to the high cut SC makes."
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:16 PM   #192
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What that says to me, anyway - is "Muffled sound with the potential for distortion upon increase of gain due to the high cut SC makes."
I don't remember you mentioning that Soundcloud sounded "muffled" before. Why is that?

PS. sock puppets aren't cool.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:51 PM   #193
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I don't remember you mentioning that Soundcloud sounded "muffled" before. Why is that?

PS. sock puppets aren't cool.
I merely mentioned muffled because of the screenshot Bezusheist shared. This is not a sock puppet. Check my Join Date
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Old 08-13-2017, 05:24 PM   #194
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Not "horribly wrong" so much as I just don't think the method you were using is going to tell us much of anything. If you hate the sound on your transistor radio, you exchange it for a nice stereo. You don't try and figure out if the record being played on it has too many scratches or not. Least, I don't.
Can you describe exactly what it is you think my method is, and how it relates to your statement about transistor radio's vs nice stereos?

Drop the analogies and directly say what you mean.

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Old 08-13-2017, 05:47 PM   #195
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Join date isn't the way to tell and sock puppeting while banned still isn't cool.
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:09 PM   #196
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Had to look up "sock puppeting". Huh OK. At least it wasn't one of those things where someone might say "but don't google that!"
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:39 PM   #197
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Pretty much the general tone has been "Anyone who thinks what's implied in the article linked in the OP must be fulla bullshit." When Bezusheist showed up, the tone changed to something more business-like for the most part.
Spare me your butthurt excuse for your behavior.

bezusheist gets the respect he deserves for the way he conducts himself, and the evidence he produces. He is actually helping us to all increase our understanding of what is happening with audio on various media sites.

But in your head all you can see is "oooohhh.. look at the know it all's change their attitude when someone produces evidence that proves us right!"

But that is because you jumped to the conclusion that the evidence proves you right, and that we've changed our behavior to save face.

Based on everything you've posted so far, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly how your brain works, and you are quite happy to project that on everyone else. You're not involving yourself in a sensible discussion. You're just trying to win at arguing.

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Old 08-13-2017, 07:27 PM   #198
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Spare me your butthurt excuse for your behavior
Spare me your projections and/or misguided assumptions.

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bezusheist gets the respect he deserves for the way he conducts himself, and the evidence he produces. He is actually helping us to all increase our understanding of what is happening with audio on various media sites
Agreed. Did you also notice you did fuck-all to get us anywhere near that until he showed up?

Quote:
But in your head all you can see is "oooohhh.. look at the know it all's change their attitude when someone produces evidence that proves us right
So you're now a) Karnack the great b) God c) One helluva psychotherapist and can see exactly what's in other people's heads. Great~! Because you weren't displaying anything worth considering early on.

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But that is because you jumped to the conclusion that the evidence proves you right, and that we've changed our behavior to save face
Nope. I concluded from the evidence that there wasn't much evidence per se being discussed. Only opinions.

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You're not involving yourself in a sensible discussion. You're just trying to win at arguing.
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:31 PM   #199
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Can you describe exactly what it is you think my method is, and how it relates to your statement about transistor radio's vs nice stereos?

Drop the analogies and directly say what you mean.
I've said exactly what I meant several times now: You appear to be more concerned with the Source than the signal. And I base that assumption on the fact that you mostly talked about nulling files. How does that explain what SC's broadcast function does to it?
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:00 PM   #200
drumphil
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Originally Posted by Mankind Global Media View Post
I've said exactly what I meant several times now: You appear to be more concerned with the Source than the signal. And I base that assumption on the fact that you mostly talked about nulling files. How does that explain what SC's broadcast function does to it?
What the fuck does that actually mean???? What is the signal in the situation we are looking at?

SC's "broadcast" (it isn't broadcasting!!) function doesn't do anything to change the source.

The source is the 128k mp3. This 128k mp3 is made when you upload your file to soundcloud or bandcamp.

It is stored on a server.

When you go to the soundcloud or bandcamp page a mp3 player in the page buffers the file and plays it. It receives a PERFECT copy. There is no such thing as "signal degradation" in this situation. It is just a matter or digitally transferring a file perfectly, to a mp3 player in the web page you go to to listen to the song.

If what you hear through the web page is any different to what you hear if you just download a copy of the original 128k mp3, then the difference is because of the player in the web page, not anything to do with sources and signals.

Quote:
Agreed. Did you also notice you did fuck-all to get us anywhere near that until he showed up?
Yeah, all I did was determine that the soundcloud and bandcamp versions of the 128k mp3 encoding mostly null to silence.

Heck, what useless information! I mean, it isn't as if one of the examples given was "hey, listen to the soundclould version of this song, and then listen to how much better the bandcamp version sounds". If someone had been claiming that then it is a very useful test..... FFS.

That information tells us that whatever it is we are seeing in the soundcloud square waves examples that bezusheist uploaded and tested, that we don't see on the bandcamp, doesn't cause enough of a difference with normal music material to prevent the bandcamp and soundcloud versions from mostly nulling. There are some differences, and if you download the reaper project that I have provided, you can listen for yourself, hear when the differences occur, and also see for yourself that most of the audio does indeed null, telling us that most of the sound is EXACTLY the same.

Useless information?


I have also explained how to actually directly download the mp3 without passing it through the web page mp3 player so that we can test the encoding separately from any possible playback and recording artifacts. I did that so I could do proper ABX testing to see if I could hear a difference in the examples provided, and in other tracks from the same sources. This knowledge means that everyone else can do the same test too if they want.

I also downloaded the youtube version of one of the tracks and was able to determine that it uses 192k VBR aac encoding. More useful information that helps us get a perspective on the the situation we are looking at.

Kevinwayne couldn't be bothered to do any of that, and it's his claims we are looking at. bezusheist had brought some information and insight that lets us understand the situation better.

All you saw was "oohhhh, I can see artifacts, and I'm going to guess how much difference they make, wonder if we're prove right yet!"

I'm part of an interesting discussion with people who actually give a damn about what we know and how we know it.

You however have not added anything useful apart from putting shit on people.

Last edited by drumphil; 08-13-2017 at 10:19 PM.
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