Surround Panning

[Ice]

I can't seem to find any settings in ReaSurround that let me pan in surround the way I need to pan. I do come from a Pro Tools surround mixing background so am used to what the PT panner does. By that I mean the ability to move between speakers and also discreetly to any channel as well. And all without any hassle to set up.

ReaSurround is incredibly flexible and complex, but I can't get it to do what I actually need it to do.

My screenshot below shows my dilemma. Its a mono track sent to a 7.1 output. In order for all 7 channels to be reached discreetly when needed, the X & Y axis have to be blown out to full, so there is no cross between channels when the panner sits directly on any "speaker". This is important. I can't park the panner on the Left side channel and have it bleeding into the front left or left surround. Likewise if I'm parked on the center channel I can't have it bleeding into the left or right. The ability to pan completely discreetly to a channel is necessary.

https://app.box.com/s/9i9bdo9y0zdqq3vvdsu0to6wyni4lifj

When set up like this, panning across the front is OK, but anywhere else that crosses the X-Axis is terrible. Try panning from left surround to right surround and there is no blending of the channels, it just jumps once it crosses the center axis.

In order to pan from left surround to right surround, I have to reduce the width of the X-Axis, in which case I can no longer pan discreetly to the center.

I can't find any settings that allow me to do what I need to do.

I know some people hard assign, but thats not a good solution to trying to mix tracks in surround.

I also can't be automating the X-Axis width all the time. If ReaSurround is our only solution in lieu of a dedicated surround track panner, then I need to be able to use it like a panner.

I have tried JS Surroundpan2 MK2, and have "less" trouble with it (though panning from the center to either side bleeds into the opposite side which I don't want), I need a 7.1 panner and its only 5.1.

[introvert]

I have also faced this problem for a long time. I've resulted to hacks workarounds to get work done. I've wanted to find time to try to write my own panner to address the issue, but I just haven't had the time to dedicate to it.

It's a legit issue that makes surround mixing more difficult in Reaper. Would be amazing to see it addressed.

[plush2]

Originally Posted by Ice

My screenshot below shows my dilemma. Its a mono track sent to a 7.1 output. In order for all 7 channels to be reached discreetly when needed, the X & Y axis have to be blown out to full, so there is no cross between channels when the panner sits directly on any "speaker". This is important. I can't park the panner on the Left side channel and have it bleeding into the front left or left surround. Likewise if I'm parked on the center channel I can't have it bleeding into the left or right. The ability to pan completely discreetly to a channel is necessary.

I'm not an apologist for Reasurround, it can be confusing and unwieldy. At the same time it is powerful and once the concept is understood (no thanks to the GUI visualisation) the job can be done with it.



The sections of the circles with the red squigles will send discrete signal to the corresponding speaker in the middle of said circle. The image shows a discrete center channel panning. I understand the desire to pan to the little speaker icons, unfortunately (or fortunately if you find you like it I guess) the speakers represent the center of a circle of influence and not an actual speaker in the destination room the mix is intended to play in. I hope I have understood your post, apologies if I have not.

[RobinGShore]

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to setup ReaSurround the way you want. I've spent many hours over the past 5 or 6 six years futzing with the settings in ReaSurround, trying to make it behave like a "normal" surround panner only to give up in frustration every time after running into all the same problems you described.

I would recommend you take a look at Iosono's Anymix Pro VST plugin (http://www.iosono-sound.com/vstaax-plug-ins/), it does exactly what you need. It's a little pricey and I don't love the UI, but it's the only thing I've found that will actually make surround panning work in Reaper. I know there at least a couple of us on these forums who are using it.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by plush2

I'm not an apologist for Reasurround, it can be confusing and unwieldy. At the same time it is powerful and once the concept is understood (no thanks to the GUI visualisation) the job can be done with it.

The sections of the circles with the red squigles will send discrete signal to the corresponding speaker in the middle of said circle. The image shows a discrete center channel panning. I understand the desire to pan to the little speaker icons, unfortunately (or fortunately if you find you like it I guess) the speakers represent the center of a circle of influence and not an actual speaker in the destination room the mix is intended to play in. I hope I have understood your post, apologies if I have not.

You're right I've tried this too, but the levels in this scenario are way out of whack. Play the center where its discreet and the level has dropped significantly, especially compared to if its hard sent there.

I'm really hoping there is one! But I've sat down numerous times to try to sort a setting out and can't find one I can actually use.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to setup ReaSurround the way you want. I've spent many hours over the past 5 or 6 six years futzing with the settings in ReaSurround, trying to make it behave like a "normal" surround panner only to give up in frustration every time after running into all the same problems you described.

I would recommend you take a look at Iosono's Anymix Pro VST plugin (http://www.iosono-sound.com/vstaax-plug-ins/), it does exactly what you need. It's a little pricey and I don't love the UI, but it's the only thing I've found that will actually make surround panning work in Reaper. I know there at least a couple of us on these forums who are using it.

I have Iosono and its certainly better. I was hoping I was missing something in ReaSurround so I could share sessions easier.

With a system as flexible and powerful as Reaper is for surround, there's a missing link here in built-in panning. I know its been talked about many times too.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by plush2

I'm not an apologist for Reasurround, it can be confusing and unwieldy. At the same time it is powerful and once the concept is understood (no thanks to the GUI visualisation) the job can be done with it.



The sections of the circles with the red squigles will send discrete signal to the corresponding speaker in the middle of said circle. The image shows a discrete center channel panning. I understand the desire to pan to the little speaker icons, unfortunately (or fortunately if you find you like it I guess) the speakers represent the center of a circle of influence and not an actual speaker in the destination room the mix is intended to play in. I hope I have understood your post, apologies if I have not.

This still doesn't really address the issues with panning between speakers. Yeah, you can send discrete signal to individual speakers if you park the input puck at the right spot, but once you start trying to move sounds around you're still likely to get all sorts of weird bleed and drop-offs unless you move the puck in a very precise way along the edges of the circles. Doing something as simple as smooth pan across the front three speakers is really not intuitive with this setup

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Ice

I have Iosono and its certainly better. I was hoping I was missing something in ReaSurround so I could share sessions easier.

With a system as flexible and powerful as Reaper is for surround, there's a missing link here in built-in panning. I know its been talked about many times too.

Also - any tips on getting Iosono to go to channels discreetly? Center is by far the most important one and thats a command click on the Radius knob which is OK. Other speakers though.... Less critical but its really hard to lock onto other channels discreetly.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Ice

With a system as flexible and powerful as Reaper is for surround, there's a missing link here in built-in panning. I know its been talked about many times too.

You can say that again! I've brought this up with Justin Frankel in person before and while he seemed reluctant to add an actual surround track panner, he did mention he was thinking of making a ReaSurround V2 that might behave more like a traditional surround panner. This was over a year ago so I imagine it fell by the wayside, but fingers crossed that it could still happen.

Originally Posted by Ice

Also - any tips on getting Iosono to go to channels discreetly? Center is by far the most important one and thats a command click on the Radius knob which is OK. Other speakers though.... Less critical but its really hard to lock onto other channels discreetly.

When I need to hit a channel discreetly I put all the other settings at their defaults and manually enter in values for rotation. -30/30 degrees for L and R, and -110/110 degrees for Ls and Rs.

[Bri1]

There is no real need for any plug in surrounders--reaper will go direct to io so just use the matrix.---there's little point in making 7.1 if your audio interface will not play that back--this means you need 8 channel playback interface >>>speakers setup....some basic interfacing only comes with 2 wave channel outputs ---beyond that there is a lot of side\\surround faking going on____(windozey headphone virtualization) blahblahblah. =)

[jm duchenne]

Hi,

Yes, the ReaSurround can be more complicated to use for simple panning than other tools, and the presets are hardly usable directly.
But it can do about everything you want with a few different settings.
There are some answers here :
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=169473
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=10

The main tip is to check the "Normalize multichannel gain" to avoid "all sorts of weird bleed and drop-offs" when you move your sources. It is weird that it is deprecated and unchecked by default...
The second one is to move the speakers objects (and adjust their influence) to get the result you need.

[airon]

Thanks for the links. Anything to get Reasurround to work in my mixes is appreciated.

My approach right now is to have different tracks configurations for surround mixes.

Bus to centre, with mono reverb sends.
Surround panner 2 VST version, with dowmixed reverb sends and surround reverb sends.

Reasurround never figured in to it. I actually tried to use an Xbox 360 controller for that, but that has never worked for more than one axis. And I hate doing it with knobs. My new plan is to grab a decent tablet(cheap iPad probably) and run Lemur for that, or create a second tab on my existing Lemur setup.

Another one to spend some free time on, but it should go more smoothly than my first endavour.

I figure ARA 2 will be part of Reaper 6, so a version 2 of ReaSurround might be part if that push as well.

[The Byre]

DaVinci-Resolve has a regular surround panner for every channel

https://images.blackmagicdesign.com/...?_v=1492476256

It's a free download.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Bri1

There is no real need for any plug in surrounders--reaper will go direct to io so just use the matrix.---there's little point in making 7.1 if your audio interface will not play that back--this means you need 8 channel playback interface >>>speakers setup....some basic interfacing only comes with 2 wave channel outputs ---beyond that there is a lot of side\\surround faking going on____(windozey headphone virtualization) blahblahblah. =)

I work in film sound. I need surround panning.

[jm duchenne]

Originally Posted by airon

Reasurround never figured in to it. I actually tried to use an Xbox 360 controller for that, but that has never worked for more than one axis. And I hate doing it with knobs. My new plan is to grab a decent tablet(cheap iPad probably) and run Lemur for that, or create a second tab on my existing Lemur setup.

You can use also Xotopad that works very well with all cheap (or not) Windows tablets :
http://feelyoursound.com/xotopad/

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by The Byre

DaVinci-Resolve has a regular surround panner for every channel

https://images.blackmagicdesign.com/...?_v=1492476256

It's a free download.

how does that help with reaper?

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

how does that help with reaper?

It doesn't!

No one software does everything. Reaper is perfect for timing ADR, FX and Foleys, but surround mixes are not its strength, just as CD mastering is also not its strength.

Horses for courses!

[EpicSounds]

Can you show us some tips on how to go from an edit in reaper to a mix in Resolve?

[svijayrathinam]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to setup ReaSurround the way you want. I've spent many hours over the past 5 or 6 six years futzing with the settings in ReaSurround, trying to make it behave like a "normal" surround panner only to give up in frustration every time after running into all the same problems you described.

I would recommend you take a look at Iosono's Anymix Pro VST plugin (http://www.iosono-sound.com/vstaax-plug-ins/), it does exactly what you need. It's a little pricey and I don't love the UI, but it's the only thing I've found that will actually make surround panning work in Reaper. I know there at least a couple of us on these forums who are using it.

Iosono is what I use. But as ICE and AIRON says a proper surround panner is so vital for film post workflow. I hope there will be some development in this area.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by The Byre

It doesn't!

No one software does everything. Reaper is perfect for timing ADR, FX and Foleys, but surround mixes are not its strength, just as CD mastering is also not its strength.

Horses for courses!

Reaper is prime for being a very powerful surround mixing environment. There's just a missing link here IMO to make it viable.

For those of us that could benefit from it, we have to continue to politely ask for what we need.

[Bri1]

I work in film sound. I need surround panning.

Oh! hmmm-which department?
Unless your working at the final distribution plant (either cd,dvd,bluray etcetc) then your having to deliver in a format of some kind--right? so which format/s and workflow/s do you currently use to get your film work done right now?
Surround is done by discrete channelling and mono stems as far i know (unless some type of live burning is going on......) =reaper can do this without any plugins--it will export mono stems and also a single 8 channel wav file---what more does 1 need? well-i strongly suggest learning a 3d programme while your at it--something like blender works a frrriken charm (free) as you get orthographic and perspective views as well as fairly accurate measuring tools for speaker audio.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by jm duchenne

Yes, the ReaSurround can be more complicated to use for simple panning than other tools, and the presets are hardly usable directly.
But it can do about everything you want with a few different settings.
There are some answers here :
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=169473
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=10

The main tip is to check the "Normalize multichannel gain" to avoid "all sorts of weird bleed and drop-offs" when you move your sources. It is weird that it is deprecated and unchecked by default...
The second one is to move the speakers objects (and adjust their influence) to get the result you need.

I've read through both those threads before, watched your video (even though I don't speak French) and done plenty of experimenting with the speaker position and influence settings in ReaSurround, but I've still never been able to make it work well. Does anyone have a good ReaSurround preset file they can share so I can see what it actually looks like? I have other tools that work for me (as I said earlier in this thread I use Iosono anymix) so even if I did find the right settings I doubt I'd start using ReaSurround in a practical situation at this point, but I'd still be really curious to check it out.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Oh! hmmm-which department?
Unless your working at the final distribution plant (either cd,dvd,bluray etcetc) then your having to deliver in a format of some kind--right? so which format/s and workflow/s do you currently use to get your film work done right now?
Surround is done by discrete channelling and mono stems as far i know (unless some type of live burning is going on......) =reaper can do this without any plugins--it will export mono stems and also a single 8 channel wav file---what more does 1 need? well-i strongly suggest learning a 3d programme while your at it--something like blender works a frrriken charm (free) as you get orthographic and perspective views as well as fairly accurate measuring tools for speaker audio.

Are you trying to tell me what I need? I've been doing this 25 years.

But to answer your question, I work in sound design and sound effects editing and mixing. So cutting to picture and mixing and panning elements, and in Pro Tools.

The examples you're providing have nothing to do with this stage of the workflow.

What type of film work do you do?

[Bri1]

Does anyone have a good ReaSurround preset file they can share so I can see what it actually looks like? .

I could make a few presets and track templates--it's dead easy really.. the only thing i struggled with in the past was the z height.... that maybe different as i have not looked at that surround plug for a while now...it does work though.

Are you trying to tell me what I need? I've been doing this 25 years.

Lol-nope--- and if your in the game that long--why are you still struggling with it m8?

The examples you're providing have nothing to do with this stage of the workflow.

What type of film work do you do?

Heh-you really have no idea.right? because if you did-you might just answer more correctly to questions m8.

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Oh! hmmm-which department?
Unless your working at the final distribution plant (either cd,dvd,bluray etcetc) then your having to deliver in a format of some kind--right? so which format/s and workflow/s do you currently use to get your film work done right now?
Surround is done by discrete channelling and mono stems as far i know (unless some type of live burning is going on......) =reaper can do this without any plugins--it will export mono stems and also a single 8 channel wav file---what more does 1 need? well-i strongly suggest learning a 3d programme while your at it--something like blender works a frrriken charm (free) as you get orthographic and perspective views as well as fairly accurate measuring tools for speaker audio.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Bri1

I could make a few presets and track templates--it's dead easy really.. the only thing i struggled with in the past was the z height.... that maybe different as i have not looked at that surround plug for a while now...it does work though.



Lol-nope--- and if your in the game that long--why are you still struggling with it m8?



Heh-you really have no idea.right? because if you did-you might just answer more correctly to questions m8.

I guess neither of us knows the other.

I'm not going to hash out this with you in this manner.

I will respectfully just say that just because you don't need or see a need for something, doesn't nullify what others might.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by jm duchenne

Hi,

Yes, the ReaSurround can be more complicated to use for simple panning than other tools, and the presets are hardly usable directly.
But it can do about everything you want with a few different settings.
There are some answers here :
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=169473
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=10

The main tip is to check the "Normalize multichannel gain" to avoid "all sorts of weird bleed and drop-offs" when you move your sources. It is weird that it is deprecated and unchecked by default...
The second one is to move the speakers objects (and adjust their influence) to get the result you need.

Thank you for the "Normalize multichannel gain" tip. This helps significantly.

I should add here that Reasurround is an impressive bit of code and I don't mean to knock it. Its flexibility from 1 to 64 channels is off the charts.

[Bri1]

Thank you for the "Normalize multichannel gain" tip. This helps significantly.

I should add here that Reasurround is an impressive bit of code and I don't mean to knock it. Its flexibility from 1 to 64 channels is off the charts.

Lolz--so,only rubs and thanx for deprecieated suggestions? i'm actually trying to endlessly help others in a productive think out of the box way-- what do i get in returns?? ignorances/trollings and just blatant disrespectfull replies.Thanx for the lovely forums here---all i regular see is dimwittz,nitwittz,havingafitz+idontgiveashitz twittz.... ok so keep it.

Will give a final tip here-- reasurround will not work correctly as reaper always default track outputs channels 1/2 as a stereo pair--the rest are seperated,discrete channels.
^That info did not take 25years to gather--more like 25mins.... ya young whips and 'csc' need some speed in thoughts eh.

[airon]

Are there decent feature request threads for a surround panner that we can take this conversation to ?

We have been asking for a more film-oriented panner likely since ReaSurround made it’s full version debut. It took a few years to get Preview mode going, so this is possible too.

It covers specific professional as well as intermediate needs in panning. I guess the film people who first saw and used ReaSurround didn’t have the heart to ask for more back then.

Now we do ask for it.

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Will give a final tip here-- reasurround will not work correctly as reaper always default track outputs channels 1/2 as a stereo pair--the rest are seperated,discrete channels.
^That info did not take 25years to gather--more like 25mins.... ya young whips and 'csc' need some speed in thoughts eh.

what is your solution to panning a sound somewhere between outputs 1 and 3 (left speaker and center speaker) without going to output 2 at all.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by Ice

Reaper is prime for being a very powerful surround mixing environment. There's just a missing link here IMO to make it viable.

For those of us that could benefit from it, we have to continue to politely ask for what we need.

I totally agree!

I worked out that there are some 5,000 to 10,000 audio 'events' in your average movie and nothing out there beats Reaper for getting ADR to match lips and Foley etc. to match picture (I've got stretch mark placement on cursor position on the letter 'Q' and it takes seconds to get things spot-on that way!)

But one has to come out of the mutitrack / stems and go to something else for placement - which is a total PITA, as sometimes one finds things that still need fixing - and all for the want of a simple surround panner like the Fairlight - Resolve panner.

No - a work-around is not good enough and a plug-in is not good enough. That all takes far too much time! Remember - 10,000 events, so a few extra seconds doing something can add days - and there's no such thing as late in TV and the movies!!!! I need to see each and every position on the mixer GUI!

[Bri1]

what is your solution to panning a sound somewhere between outputs 1 and 3 (left speaker and center speaker) without going to output 2 at all.

All great solutions lay in the questions themselves-- think about it-- thought we were all exberts here***
Usually the quickest route to any destination is in a straight line-- not going in wonky ways and confused stepping eh. =)
A cd,dvd/bluray pressing plant only needs seperated audio streams--it's not rocket science,but dimple technology made simplez.
almost
(personally- i see reaper's fatal flaw in this channeling thing )


and now for an interlude...>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/nwxbZMbO7BNVkFfv2

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Bri1

All great solutions lay in the questions themselves-- think about it-- thought we were all exberts here***
Usually the quickest route to any destination is in a straight line-- not going in wonky ways and confused stepping eh. =)
A cd,dvd/bluray pressing plant only needs seperated audio streams--it's not rocket science,but dimple technology made simplez.
almost
(personally- i see reaper's fatal flaw in this channeling thing )


and now for an interlude...>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/nwxbZMbO7BNVkFfv2

Bri1 we're talking about different parts of the process I think. I, and the other pressing for this, are talking about the track laying, panning, and mixing of the sources.

From what I can gather, you're talking about multichannel audio that is post-mix? Where everything is panned and done and already in its proper channel? We're talking about getting sources into their properly mixed position in the first place.

For instance a jet sound that needs to travel from the front right across the screen and then back to the rear left surround. That is typically a mono or stereo source (or combination of sources) that has to be moved either by the editor or mixer. Moving and automating those sources in the mix is the panner we need.

From what this thread, (and the others), is showing, its mathematically possible to use Reasurround to be this sort of channel panner. But compared to the Pro Tools surround panner there's a big difference between possible and practical. Reaper beats Pro Tools on so many fronts, but this mixing panner is not one of them.

[Bri1]

Bri1 we're talking about different parts of the process I think. I, and the other pressing for this, are talking about the track laying, panning, and mixing of the sources.

From what I can gather, you're talking about multichannel audio that is post-mix? Where everything is panned and done and already in its proper channel? We're talking about getting sources into their properly mixed position in the first place.

Aye-i am totally with you and have done this---am suggesting pre and post can be done straight on the faders theoretically and practically.
There is 1 simple excercise any1 can do to study the way reaper rolls and then renders... challenge= make 8 mono stems have a sound rotating for 2 complete cycles of 8 speakers by using just faders-- then render same project to a single multichannel file-- then burn it to dvd and playback on a proper surround system.

Reaper may seem simple on the surface,but as 1 delves a little deeper they find it's a tricky and immensly complex and confusing programme to 'get right'quickly.simplicity is always key for me,and whichever way gets me there quicker.

[plush2]

It's awkward, yes and even with normalize reenabled the transitions and dropoffs are pretty harsh. I just wanted to illustrate that it is possible to get a discrete signal within the panner.

A panner something like the one pyramix put in would have the ability to deliver a standard interface without giving up some of that future-proof power Reaper excells at.

Originally Posted by jm duchenne

You can use also Xotopad that works very well with all cheap (or not) Windows tablets :
http://feelyoursound.com/xotopad/

Thanks for the recommendation jm. That will be quite useful.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Aye-i am totally with you and have done this---am suggesting pre and post can be done straight on the faders theoretically and practically.
There is 1 simple excercise any1 can do to study the way reaper rolls and then renders... challenge= make 8 mono stems have a sound rotating for 2 complete cycles of 8 speakers by using just faders-- then render same project to a single multichannel file-- then burn it to dvd and playback on a proper surround system.

Reaper may seem simple on the surface,but as 1 delves a little deeper they find it's a tricky and immensly complex and confusing programme to 'get right'quickly.simplicity is always key for me,and whichever way gets me there quicker.

I guess it would be technically possible to pan a sound the way you're describing, but that method would never cut it in a real world situation. Way too slow, imprecise, and complex.The whole reason panners exist is so that we don't have to do those type of fader gymnastics.

[Bri1]

The whole reason panners exist is so that we don't have to do those type of fader gymnastics.

Lolz--yaya--i guess if you want to make n break records ya have to practice hard and put the time in-- robots are great but humans still have to apply a certain amount of elbow grease to give that humanity...and most robots still need a human to programme or automate it.
7.1 is only 8 channels--- once people mix everything down to 4 stereo channels (some of these silly 'film guys' say they use over 200/400 tracks bleh lolz) then all is golden in reaper--- no crazy set ups or anything--- just 1 folder track--and 4 stereo tracks feed that for a final (for pressing) single 8 track multichannel rendered wav.
Go home much much earlier,job done. =)

[airon]

I do all my panning work in seconds, and it's the only way I can get it done in time. That's one of the reasons people bought motorized joysticks. Speed.

Everything I do, eq, compression, denoising, deessing, send volume level, send mute, volume, pan, plugin gui open/close, six automation modes track/global, solo/unsolo and a whole lot more is right at my fingertips at all times.

The second something basic gets slowed to a crawl you stop using it, and replace it with something that works quickly enough. ReaSurround slowed me down, confused me even. I can't afford that. It was slower to setup and use for good old 5.1 or 7.1. So it slipped off the table.

What is this reluctance to put a multichannel panner in the track controls anyway ? We have all these different stereo panners. This is not a big leap.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by airon

The second something basic gets slowed to a crawl you stop using it, and replace it with something that works quickly enough. ReaSurround slowed me down, confused me even. I can't afford that. It was slower to setup and use for good old 5.1 or 7.1. So it slipped off the table.

Which is why I personally do not use PT or Nuendo for anything - too much faffing about!

Originally Posted by Ice

Reaper is prime for being a very powerful surround mixing environment. There's just a missing link here IMO to make it viable.

The stereo panner could be replaced with a little box with two dots for stereo, three for L,C,R, five for 5.1 and so on.

[ChristopherT]

THIS is a very well designed surround panner :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6cLKSKBe4

I hope the Devs here look at this for inspiration