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Old 08-16-2008, 11:16 PM   #81
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Good luck guys
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:53 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
http://pipelineaudio.net/samples/summing%20test.zip

Download it and try it for yourself

If you had actually read the post instead of just listening with your mouth, you would have seen it was THREE tracks

here it is again

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=13473

Any other post from you besides " Here are the results" are either trolling or outright deception from this point forward.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You have been provided with an EXTREMELY simple way to provide evidence for your claims. If you chose not to from this point forward, we will all know you are full of crap.

Here, I just dumped the three samples in reaper with a reverb and did the same in SawStudio with the same reverb and setting.

Altho this ain't a song, I hear a noticeable difference in favor of SAW. This richness is further audible on ''real' tracks and especially on instruments sharing frequency range such as BD vs BASS ect....


Do not listen to them in only one daw....
Choose a neutral ground.... winamp could do but not window's media player...

This is a .rar file for wich I changed the .rar for .zip so just change it back.

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:57 PM   #83
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Quote:
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.... winamp could do but not window's media player....
:> way 2 go Justin!!

ns
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:58 PM   #84
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For some reason, part of the tail was truncated in the reaper's result....

I'll try to re-upload it if someone feels its necessary
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:59 PM   #85
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Quote:
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I'll try to re-upload it if someone feels its necessary
Mais oui!!
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:08 AM   #86
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I redo the upload....


Change the .zip for .rar

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:16 AM   #87
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well at least we are getting somewhere.

Can you upload the saw edl and the reaper edl?
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:19 AM   #88
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The edl ain't much than all three samples played one after the other then all at once....

I guess I could but, why ?

(I did not aply any trick to it.... its all raw+reverb)

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:40 AM   #89
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Dude, you need a serious clue.. (we need that :nutter: smiley from KvR)

Just to clarify: The question isn't if something sums or not (not all DAWs dither the same way and hence do not digitally sum nor sound identical), however, the question is, can YOU hear a difference in an blind test! Dare to take one? I can do one for you. Reaper, Nuendo and SAW. Dare to take the challenge?

- bManic

Last edited by bmanic; 08-17-2008 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:47 AM   #90
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I tried to redo the upload again with the edl but I can't remove the first one.... probably because there were replies to the post where I uploaded .... ?

Anyways, I have to say that even if I hear some significant differences in the 2 renderings, this is not a song and if I wouldn't know what to listen for, I probably wouldn't hear anything different from one another....
But, there is a difference....
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:49 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
Dude, you need a serious clue.. (we need that :nutter: smiley from KvR)

Just to clarify: The question isn't if something sums or not (not all DAWs dither the same way and hence do not digitally sum nor sound identical), however, the question is, can YOU hear a difference in an blind test! Dare to take one? I can do one for you. Reaper, Nuendo and SAW. Dare to take the challenge?

- bManic
anytime dude

I did that with many people...
Even my tone deaph(not sure of the spelling of ''deaph'' but I am getting to sleepy to verify ) ex-girlfriend pointed saw everytime out of many daws.
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:18 AM   #92
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Upload again this time with project files.

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:24 AM   #93
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OK guys time for bed... It is 4:30 am here....

Sorry for being such an asshole but sometimes this computer/sound mishmash gets me angry at the time that goes by...

cu
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:33 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Upload again this time with project files.
Couldn't get it right the first time...
Attached Files
File Type: zip Zee results with edls.zip (1.16 MB, 228 views)
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:58 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
It is a fact that softwares built in assembly language don't depend on Windows(tm) and sound better.
It is a fact that those assembly daws are not as evolved as the window based ones.
lol. come on, guys! are you still not reading his stuff?

man, this is hilarious

continue!
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:08 AM   #96
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yeah this is great entertainment. Let the hilarity ensue!!!
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Old 08-17-2008, 04:48 AM   #97
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Please don't let this thread die, I am loving it! It's piss funny!
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Old 08-17-2008, 05:58 AM   #98
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Quote:
But, does it sound as good as the CD you listen to ?

Why do the bassdrum fight the Bass track ?

Are you such a bad engineer or maybe just using the wrong tools ?

If (the less it goes, the less I believe I can) I help myself achieve a good ITB sound, the more you will too.
This quote of yours, Zee, tells me everything I need to hear to determine what knowledge you really have... or lack thereof.

Why does the bass-drum fight the bass track? Erm... because they're both using the same frequency space perhaps? And because you haven't done anything to rectify the fight that they're having for space??

Nah... ignore me, I'm just trolling obviously.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:19 AM   #99
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can anybody bring me some popcorn?
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:32 AM   #100
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Here comes the tone-deaf army...

I was expecting them sooner....much sooner.

I guess that it was a waste of time again since we're gonna hear the same jokes again and over and over....

Bring on the potato pictures....

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:37 AM   #101
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Could anyone just recomend me (seriously) a daw that could do a bit of what reaper does and wich has a sound closer to SawStudio's and I'll leave .
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:40 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Could anyone just recomend me (seriously) a daw that could do a bit of what reaper does and wich has a sound closer to SawStudio's and I'll leave .
Or (seriously), just leave.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:46 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
What would Bowie do ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightscope View Post
Nothing. He'd get Visconti to do it in Logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Did it turn out as a good album ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightscope View Post
It nulls OK.
ROFL!

...
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:54 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberience View Post
This quote of yours, Zee, tells me everything I need to hear to determine what knowledge you really have... or lack thereof.

Why does the bass-drum fight the bass track? Erm... because they're both using the same frequency space perhaps? And because you haven't done anything to rectify the fight that they're having for space??

Nah... ignore me, I'm just trolling obviously.

I did weaken my BD and Bass tracks allright....lol

The reason they fight is because there is no third dimension to the mix....no deepness or thickness.... When I put reverb on a track, I hear it kind of akward that the back of the simulated room is in the front with the reverbed source....It's never front/back, its always only loud/burried.

Also, low-mids are mushed-up from the very first recorded track so it can't be a summing thing alone.

I tried using an analog mixer's headroom with multi-outs from my soundcard for summing but I can't get rid of that ''shhhhhhh'' like MP3 style sound.

I allowed myself a very harsh title because I've been nice and polite before and got submerged with insults just the same...

If getting you to hear what I mean wasn't hard enough, I first need to get you to listen....Wich seems impossible.
The tone-deaf army members are defending principles they can't come close to understand...

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:13 AM   #105
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Maybe your monitors aren't thick, or deep enough. You can always move them further apart for width, but if they aint got the thickness you need thicker ones.

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Old 08-17-2008, 10:17 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post
Maybe your monitors aren't thick, or deep enough. You can always move them further apart for width, but if they aint got the thickness you need thicker ones.
Could that be it ??
Never tought of it.... thx dude

I'll go get my tuck-tape and make headphones out of them...hope that will fix my problem....Pretty sure it will

Thanks again

Damn!!! what was I waiting for ?
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:32 AM   #107
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Default zee should be immortalized forever! (make a zee topic)

oh my GOD!!!

zee, you are back at it again! im quite stoked.

i was upset at the older closed thread, one i enjoyed thoroughly, because i didnt get to put my 14.5 cents in... but i cant remember the piece of wit i had at that time so i will send you all my digital theory love instead! (who wants to bet some wit will be begged if zee responds to me!)

here:

to digitally cancel by inverting the phase 180 deg., which is the same as comparing the numeric values of each sample, from 2 different daws, and to find the numbers identical, by definition, means you have 2 identical digital files.

now if you can play back one of these files over and over without getting a difference in sound, thats the same as playing another area on the hard drive with the same numbers (IE playing the second identical file).

right now, you better admit that fact. DO IT, RIGHT NOW!!!
RESPOND TO THIS FACT IN POINT FORM, THIS POINT!!! NOWWW!

there are a number of old science problems that have been implemented to relative perfection in the latest generation of converters, ill discuss below the most necessary one, even though rendering 2 digital mixes to hard disk and playing back from there nullifies possibilities of RELATIVE differences between 2 such files regardless of how bad your system is. (i wont instead say burning them to 2 successive tracks on an audio cd since that can technically have a difference! (but that is splitting hairs, hey, this is all splitting hairs!) )

now having your a/d and d/a converters in a breakout box like so many are, with their own power transformers (power supply) helps filter out well nigh all of the possible machine noise which would add enough in to the analog output to hear artifacts on playback (ie whereby one machine noise from say one graphic card screen drawing process would sound different than another machine noise from another screen redraw process from another daw drawing different stuff on the screen, and any other differences in computing algorithm). only here could you get a different sound from perfectly summing (subtracting thru phase reversal actually) DAWs. thats not the DAWs fault.

otherwise if you will feed any set of identical numbers to a sound card from a hard disc, if each identical file is played back on the same playback software, and that software right through to the soundcard drivers are not feeding out different numbers than they receive (ie no 'processing' added), you will get, by definition, the same sound.

now, i have tested nuendo 1.53 PR2 from august 2001 (!) with cubase 3.1.1 last year, and after making sure the test mix didnt have chorus or any random non repeatable processors on, and after adjusting discrepancies in volume level compared with what read on the sliders, and making sure the audio start position was sample accurate, i got PERFECT zero audio! there was only a little hiss left, with absolutely no audio material in it no matter how loud you listened to the hiss (OUCH)! (thats the sound of dither algorithm difference, even proving that all dither algorithms are essentially hiss/noise not program material (dither isnt psychic, HEHE)) that made me happy to know i didnt need to upgrade for 'sound quality'. yes you place the stereo mix from one daw into the other which you are mixing the multitracks and send it to the master bus with the phase switch on, thats scientifically flawless practice. i can play back both DAWS to the same asio driver 2 channel output and i get the same result. i can even play back each one on different high end sound cards with their clock source synced up and youd be surprised how close to null even that sounds!
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:34 AM   #108
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If SAW is that great run it on one computer, vsti's or whatever else on another computer in Reaper (or whatever), sync the computers together using MTC/SMPTE, and digitally send the vsti tracks to the other computer using an ADAT or AES conection or something.

No, its not an easy solution, but hey, you gotta suffer for your art...


...or you could always pester the SAW guys to add the features you need.
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:39 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanrabby View Post
oh my GOD!!!



right now, you better admit that fact. DO IT, RIGHT NOW!!!
RESPOND TO THIS FACT IN POINT FORM, THIS POINT!!! NOWWW!


now, i have tested nuendo 1.53 PR2 from august 2001 (!) with cubase 3.1.1 last year, and after making sure the test mix didnt have chorus or any random non repeatable processors on, and after adjusting discrepancies in volume level compared with what read on the sliders, and making sure the audio start position was sample accurate, i got PERFECT zero audio!

Yes, I admit it, 2 daws with the same sound WILL null... never said otherwise !

BTW, Nuendo and Cubase ARE THE SAME DAW with the same audio engine but with a slightly different menu repartition ect...

Last edited by Zee; 08-17-2008 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 11:04 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Bring on the potato pictures....
Here you go:


Now answer me this...
When chewed properly, will these two hashbrowns null or is there a problem with the way my mouth sums?

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Old 08-17-2008, 11:05 AM   #111
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Default this is sickening, why, while the world is collapsing...

hey i checked your summing files you uploaded.
they dont sum to zero at all. even the bass/sine wave that starts in in the left channel is completely different in the 2 files within 2 wavelengths! i know you are not setting the 2 daws up nearly the same here, because differences of that magnitude are far beyond any 2 daws ever made.

i dont have saw to check your settings, but in reaper, you have track 1 level not at zero, but -3 something, and track 3 has pan to a random not centre value.

also theres no reverb plugin there to test, what were you just summing dry tracks? that is a good way to start the testing, but id have to see your source multitrack files. they werent in the upload.

if you want to compare daws, start by putting ONE wav file in at 0 db on the fader and NO PAN or envelopes, master fader also no pan or level change. see if that zeros out once hitting the 'track phase normal' button to make it 'track phase inversed' on importing the 2 rendered files into either daw, first, before adding multi tracks and level settings. then, if you add plugins, make sure you set the exact same settings and use the exact same plugin in each daw.

and the plugins you test cant have random algorithm like chorus does, nor like some reverbs like dsp/fx studioverb or any reverb that uses chorus/modulation in it.

i have tested 32 tracks, levels and pan settings all over, but identical, dynamics/compressors, harmonic exciters, reverbs and eqs in my tests and have had the zero out test succeed, if in doubt we can mute any effects we think were causing summing problems when we test your file.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:13 PM   #112
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people find stupid laughable excuses for makin bad music, or wastin time instead of makin music talkin about diffrences in the sounds of recording machines...
which are only there because the subject doesn´t know what he´s doing... especially in the use of pan, volume or reverb. *lol*


give it up zee, music is not your cup of tea. go and play wow for example..
think this is a good place for trolls.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:19 PM   #113
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Yeah, I know ...

I just came back from the pawnshop....
I sold my guitar, KB and my recording computer...
Now, all I need to be happy is a crack dealer
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:20 PM   #114
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Quote:
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Now, all I need to be happy is a crack dealer
Check Craigslist.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:21 PM   #115
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Don't worry guys, for me, the topic is definetly closed and you won't hear much from me ever.
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:29 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
Dude, you need a serious clue.. (we need that :nutter: smiley from KvR)

Just to clarify: The question isn't if something sums or not (not all DAWs dither the same way and hence do not digitally sum nor sound identical), however, the question is, can YOU hear a difference in an blind test! Dare to take one? I can do one for you. Reaper, Nuendo and SAW. Dare to take the challenge?

- bManic
Zee!!

Here's your chance to prove all these tone-deaf REAPER lovers wrong!!

Please take bmanic up on the offer and kick some arse!!

Awesome!! here's your chance!! Do It!!

-mr moon
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:28 PM   #117
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Default hey you posters, wheres all your love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Yes, I admit it, 2 daws with the same sound WILL null... never said otherwise !

BTW, Nuendo and Cubase ARE THE SAME DAW with the same audio engine but with a slightly different menu repartition ect...
hey zee, we were getting towards complete understanding! dont give up yet! since 2 daws that sound the same will sum (actually subtract) to zero, now all you have to do is sum your favourite daw with reaper, and you will know if reaper will work for you!

the only, and crucial, and scientifically last thing we may need is to help you to make sure you set up your 2 daws so that the settings are truly the same, and we can clear it up, and you will gain any lack of knowledge you may or may not have on sound theory!

hey, you should check out www.larouchepac.com it will give you a higher perspective, its the best intelligence service in the world, really, and its grassroots, but 40 years old, worldwide, and completely accurate. here is the beginning of knowledge, and help us all not go to hell over the next 2 generations to boot!

hey all you posters, wheres your love! (and i dont mean that kind o love, we all know where that is (if we can find it, HEHE)).
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:35 PM   #118
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Here's the thing to understand if you are not really a troll

There is NO religious dogma attached saying reaper is perfect.

IF you find a problem, one you can actually provide measurable evidence for, thats a GOOD thing. The REAPER team will not be UNhappy you found a problem ,they will be ecstatic that they can improve something.

You act as if there is a conspiracy to defend reaper at all costs, when the only thing that matters is the results themselves. IF there is truly a problem, we want to know about it
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:40 PM   #119
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Quote:
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Don't worry guys, for me, the topic is definetly closed and you won't hear much from me ever.
So, let's wait for the next sleeper you've created to turn up.

Pete
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Old 08-17-2008, 03:30 PM   #120
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Jack Daw is confused:

Why do you want to null teh Daws all the time?
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