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View Poll Results: Would you use / like this feature?
Yes, it is important and I would use it 12 80.00%
Yes, I owuld use it 1 6.67%
No, I do not need it 1 6.67%
Gone fishing 1 6.67%
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:29 AM   #1
DarkStar
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Default MIDI Editor: Poly Aftertouch

Maybe I've missed something, but ...

In the MIDI Editor, shouldn't we have a Controller lane for Poly Aftertouch? (That message type can be selected in the Event Properties drop-down list.)

If not, then how do you edit them?
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Old 03-10-2017, 05:35 AM   #2
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Only in event list at the moment.


See my signature, an old FR I did...
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Old 03-10-2017, 06:17 AM   #3
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Event List: true, but it difficult to add new ones, sensibly.

Phew -that FR is old!

PS In the Issue Tracker the counts of users are not displayed properly any more:
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:24 AM   #4
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To improve the workflow a little, you can draw the desired poly aftertouch fade curve in another CC lane, and then use Properties to quickly change the CCs into poly aftertouch. (And vice versa if you want to edit existing poly aftertouch events).
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:03 AM   #5
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Yes, I did that but as soon as the events are converted to Poly Aftertouch they disappear from the piano roll / controller lanes view and are only visible in the Event List.
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:28 PM   #6
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Perhaps this FR will be implemented sooner if we can make detailed suggestions to the devs.

My suggestions:

* PATs can be displayed and edited in the MIDI editor in a CC lane, like other CCs. (I think this will be easier to implement than the original FR.)

* When notes/velocities are colored by pitch, PATs will also be colored by pitch.

* When drawing PATs, they will be drawn in the piano roll's currently active note pitch.

* When selecting a note and "CC selection follows note selection" is active, only PATs in the same pitch as the note get selected. (Similar to how only CCs in the same channel get selected.)

* When moving note to a new pitch, the selected PATs must also change pitch.

* New action: Select all PATs in active pitch.


I'm not sure how PATs should be colored when notes are colored by velocity. Monocolored like other CCs? Colored by pitch? Perhaps by velocity of matching notes?
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:42 PM   #7
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Great suggestions! I think treating them like other CCs and linking them to active notes makes sense to at least get them into a decently editable state. Then any subsequent improvements to CC editing will also apply to PAT.

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Perhaps by velocity of matching notes?
Either this or monocolored makes the most sense to me, when notes are colored by velocity.
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:12 PM   #8
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This sort of editing is the only one that makes the most sense for PAT. Making it work in current CC lanes would be nothing but a chore, IMHO.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:14 PM   #9
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I definitely see the benefit of that. What would the requisite tools for working with those events be? A drawing tool linked to a mouse modifier that kicked in at a certain zoom level perhaps? A lot of the stuff I’ve done with PAT so far hasn’t utilized a visual representation in a DAW so I’m trying to picture the necessary tools that would accompany this.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:27 PM   #10
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Yes, depending on vertical zoom level, you'd get like a track envelope for each item. Or, to be consistent with how CC lanes are done, blocks

Another option would be modifier+doubleclicking a note, a window opens for drawing in PAT events for the duration of the note (similar to Note Expression in Cubase) - since PAT events make no sense when a note is not pressed, of course.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, depending on vertical zoom level, you'd get like a track envelope for each item. Or, to be consistent with how CC lanes are done, blocks

Another option would be modifier+doubleclicking a note, a window opens for drawing in PAT events for the duration of the note (similar to Note Expression in Cubase) - since PAT events make no sense when a note is not pressed, of course.
Well, I do like the first option if it is elegantly implemented And don't give them any ideas about more blocks!

The second option seems a bit easier. I might not do as much MIDI editing as you guys, but how does the separate window idea differ from treating PAT like other CC in the CC lane? Just to make it clearer for our request, why a separate envelope or window would be better than CC. Since it seems like a lot of these features get shaped heavily by use cases brought up by us.
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, depending on vertical zoom level, you'd get like a track envelope for each item. Or, to be consistent with how CC lanes are done, blocks

Another option would be modifier+doubleclicking a note, a window opens for drawing in PAT events for the duration of the note (similar to Note Expression in Cubase) - since PAT events make no sense when a note is not pressed, of course.
I think there may be a few disadvantages of within-note PAT editing:

* Difficulty visualizing and comparing PAT for multiple notes: In the case of the zoom option, a few notes' PAT can be seen at the same time, but constant zooming-in and zooming-out would be a hassle.

* Difficulty editing PAT for multiple notes: If, for example, the PAT value range for multiple notes needs to be expanded.

* I will miss my scripts: SWS's API functions and my own scripts will not work in new within-note mini MIDI editors, unless the SWS functions are extensively updated.

* PAT and notes may lose alignment: If PATs are inadvertently de-selected while editing notes, subsequent note editing such as quantization will cause the notes and their PATs to lose alignment. Wayward scripts or overlapping notes can possibly also cause misalignment. I think REAPER should be able to easily edit (and bring back into alignment) PATs that are not connected with any notes. (Although, REAPER does manage to keep notes and their notation text events nicely in alignment, so perhaps it can reliably do the same for PATs.)

* PATs are not necessarily limited to MIDI note duration: I have not encountered this myself yet, but it is conceivable that VSTi's can respond to PATs even after the note-off. Drumkits, for example, often send zero-length notes since the drum VSTi's ignore note-offs and instead play samples till the next hit or choke.
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:41 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
* Difficulty visualizing and comparing PAT for multiple notes: In the case of the zoom option, a few notes' PAT can be seen at the same time, but constant zooming-in and zooming-out would be a hassle.
Well, other DAWs have it implemented like that (Bitwig, FL Studio), and it works nicely there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
* Difficulty editing PAT for multiple notes: If, for example, the PAT value range for multiple notes needs to be expanded.
That wouldn't be a problem if we could marquee across multiple notes. Consequently, CC lanes

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
* I will miss my scripts: SWS's API functions and my own scripts will not work in new within-note mini MIDI editors, unless the SWS functions are extensively updated.
Of course API would need to be updated, that's a given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
* PAT and notes may lose alignment: If PATs are inadvertently de-selected while editing notes, subsequent note editing such as quantization will cause the notes and their PATs to lose alignment. Wayward scripts or overlapping notes can possibly also cause misalignment. I think REAPER should be able to easily edit (and bring back into alignment) PATs that are not connected with any notes. (Although, REAPER does manage to keep notes and their notation text events nicely in alignment, so perhaps it can reliably do the same for PATs.)
PATs go where the note goes, simple as that. No way to lose alignment. It's like permanently having enabled "move envelope points with media items", just applied to PAT events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
* PATs are not necessarily limited to MIDI note duration: I have not encountered this myself yet, but it is conceivable that VSTi's can respond to PATs even after the note-off. Drumkits, for example, often send zero-length notes since the drum VSTi's ignore note-offs and instead play samples till the next hit or choke.
Technically, I guess so, but in practice, when you actually HAVE a device that outputs PATs, you can only send them while you hold a key, since it's obviously afterTOUCH, not afterRELEASE.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
* PATs are not necessarily limited to MIDI note duration: I have not encountered this myself yet, but it is conceivable that VSTi's can respond to PATs even after the note-off. Drumkits, for example, often send zero-length notes since the drum VSTi's ignore note-offs and instead play samples till the next hit or choke.
Technically, I guess so, but in practice, when you actually HAVE a device that outputs PATs, you can only send them while you hold a key, since it's obviously afterTOUCH, not afterRELEASE.
I don't have an e-drum to prove it, but I think that choking cymbals is sent as an aftertouch event. With EZdrummer you have to send a non-zero aftertouch before a zero aftertouch to make a cymbal stop ringing. But as Julian points out the MIDI note has no "real" length.

Anyway, this is no show-stopper. Better to have usable poly aftertouch support for keys only rather than have none at all.

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Old 01-03-2018, 06:18 AM   #15
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Looking at MIDI files from EZdrummer (various libraries), all notes have some length.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
PATs go where the note goes, simple as that. No way to lose alignment. It's like permanently having enabled "move envelope points with media items", just applied to PAT events.
Ideally, the PAT data timing should be referenced (glued-on) to the preceding Note-ON event:

- If you move the note forward or backward in time (without changing duration), the PAT data should follow the note.

- If you change the selected note's pitch (or use transpose), the PAT data should be changed to reference the transposed note.

- If you change the note's duration, there should be a selectable option that either 1) makes the PAT data expand or compress to the new Note-OFF event, or (2) leave the data alone during note's duration and delete PAT data that rolls off past Note-OFF if the note is made shorter.

- Also the ability to "thin" the PAT data would be nice. Having too much PAT data can saturate a MIDI stream, and this would average PAT data that is too closely together.

REAPER DEVS -- PLEASE ADD GRAPHICAL PAT EDITING TO REAPER. It's needed badly with new synths that have hit the market recently - such as Deckard's Dream, etc. Even without a polyAT keyboard, having the ability to add and edit PAT data graphically in the DAW will add tremendous amount of per-note control to the user, something that is difficult to do otherwise without multitracking.

User interface should show a preview of PAT data within the note bar in the piano roll, and when the note is selected, it should appear in the CC editing area below if that option is selected, with data moving around when the selected note is moved.

Last edited by Pando; 02-21-2018 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 10-30-2018, 02:03 AM   #17
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+1 for polyphnic after touch support in another way than text event editing.


I was thinking REAPER wasn't able to record them as I didn't saw them in CC list.


Cheers !
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:58 AM   #18
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I understand that there are only a few devices that send poly aftertouch but devices using MPE Midi (maybe together with poly aftertouch, but I suppose they usually will to channel aftertouch) are on the rise ( ).

Hence support for MPE might be additionally appropriate. In fact I have no idea how this should look like, but rather obviously poly-aftertouch and poly pitchbend, and poly-whatever CC are supposed to look very similar in an editor.

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Last edited by mschnell; 10-30-2018 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 10-30-2018, 07:29 AM   #19
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@mschbell
These devices are indeed on the rise.


Mine is the new Maschine Mikro MK3.


Adding GUI for this could be a nice enhancement for REAPER v6 !
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Old 10-30-2018, 10:15 AM   #20
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I'm likely to get a Seaboard Rise 49 for Christmas.

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Old 10-31-2018, 02:18 AM   #21
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MPE uses channel aftertouch. I am using ROLI Seaboard Blocks and love it. Editing MPE in Reaper is pretty good with the exception of pitch bend. Those are not purposefully editable in Reaper. ROLI MPE uses a bend range of 48 semitones, which results in barely visible event bars in Reaper's MIDI editor for the more usual bends - let alone vibrato gestures. This thread https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=177868 has some pics to demonstrate the problem and thoughts about what would be needed.

I don't necessarily want to see all MPE data like Channel Aftertouch and CC74 right on the notes, as that would likely introduce an extra step for selecting which one is to be edited. Right now "CC selection follows note selection" gracefully deals with it and Juliansadder's "js_Option - Selecting single note or CC in active take sets channel for new events.lua" is tremendously helpful, too. Ok, I constantly move the mouse between notes area for selection and CC lanes for edits, but I can live with that.

But in case of MPE Pitch Bend it would be the only way that makes sense to me - and of course for Poly Aftertouch, to at least say something related to the thread topic.
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