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Old 07-19-2019, 03:12 PM   #3401
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
What if, instead of wanting Channel Faders (Home -- that's easy -- it's a constant that can be included in the .zon file), you wanted whatever FX that was mapped before you pressed Sends (that is variable -- it cannot be put in a .zon file).
I guess we're going to differ on this one In your example above, I'd just remap the FX (from memory)

Seriously though, if you feel a stack is necessary for the good operation of CSI, I'm probably best ignored Am I right in understanding that in the current version there is no stack?
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Old 07-19-2019, 03:23 PM   #3402
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I guess we're going to differ on this one In your example above, I'd just remap the FX (from memory)
Cool, customized workflow is indeed what CSI is all about after all, isn't it ?

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Seriously though, if you feel a stack is necessary for the good operation of CSI, I'm probably best ignored Am I right in understanding that in the current version there is no stack?
Yes.

The new version stack will have no affect on GoZone, it will all work as now, there should be no difference, if there is it's a bug.

The addition will be LeaveZone, which will simply back up one as per the discussion.

Unlike the other mess, you have to explicitly call this, it is under your control.

Been thinking a bit more on how you have optimized you workflow by breaking up the C4 into logical Zones.

A very large percentage of the time you will use logical blocks as you have.

Occasionally though, you may want a Zone that takes over A1 B4 C3 B3 D7

Admittedly arbitrary, but LeaveZone would enable putting things back to normal regardless of the Zones previously mapped to A1 B4 C3 B3 D7.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:48 PM   #3403
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
The addition will be LeaveZone, which will simply back up one as per the discussion.
This will be handy

Quote:
Occasionally though, you may want a Zone that takes over A1 B4 C3 B3 D7
Actually, it makes no difference if the widgets are contiguous or not. The blocks I've chosen simply allow me to divide the synth up conceptually. Things that are mapped to the same block will overwrite one another when called (so filter2 overwrites filter1, say, but won't overwrite the filter envelope because it's mapped to a different block).

Really the challenge is to work out what parameters you need to appear on the surface at the same time and make sure they are mapped to different blocks so they can.

For instance, you would want the LFOs to map to a different block than the modulation controls for oscillator, filter and amplifier, so they can be adjusted without constantly switching back and forth in the same block.

I've attached a pdf of the spreadsheet I used to plan it out. You'll be able to see how deep the madness runs Also a zip of the Zones built from the plan.

Each block (16x8) represents a C4 Zone. Red names within a block represent GoZone's within the Zone file. Black names are synth parameters. It's not done yet, but what I have seems to work well.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Hybrid.pdf.zip (36.7 KB, 14 views)
File Type: zip HybridZones.zip (28.5 KB, 13 views)
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:27 AM   #3404
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This will be handy



Actually, it makes no difference if the widgets are contiguous or not. The blocks I've chosen simply allow me to divide the synth up conceptually. Things that are mapped to the same block will overwrite one another when called (so filter2 overwrites filter1, say, but won't overwrite the filter envelope because it's mapped to a different block).

Really the challenge is to work out what parameters you need to appear on the surface at the same time and make sure they are mapped to different blocks so they can.

For instance, you would want the LFOs to map to a different block than the modulation controls for oscillator, filter and amplifier, so they can be adjusted without constantly switching back and forth in the same block.

I've attached a pdf of the spreadsheet I used to plan it out. You'll be able to see how deep the madness runs Also a zip of the Zones built from the plan.

Each block (16x8) represents a C4 Zone. Red names within a block represent GoZone's within the Zone file. Black names are synth parameters. It's not done yet, but what I have seems to work well.
Yowsers !!

Very cool stuff indeed !!

Hope you're auto generating those .zon files

If you aren't, this is a trivial Excel programming task, layout wise, it's a simple hardcoded matrix.

Since your matrix never varies shape wise, statements like Cells(1, "A") are perfectly fine -- your matrix never adds or delete rows/columns -- it is always A1-D8, makes programming a breeze, do it or have a friend do it if you can, it really is easy

If you're already doing this, carry on, and good on ya'

https://www.homeandlearn.org/write_to_a_text_file.html

Instead of commas, you will be writing newline characters, so that each parameter is on a new line as per the .zon layout.

Just another reason why we concentrated on making the file formats simple -- easy to transfer from anything, including spreadsheets

[Edit] Just realized this -- congrats -- you have just written the first User Interface for CSI !!

CSI will now come with .xls spreadsheets for various surfaces -- C4, MCU, etc., brilliant !!

Thank you !!!
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:41 AM   #3405
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
This will be handy

I've attached a pdf of the spreadsheet I used to plan it out. You'll be able to see how deep the madness runs Also a zip of the Zones built from the plan.

Each block (16x8) represents a C4 Zone. Red names within a block represent GoZone's within the Zone file. Black names are synth parameters. It's not done yet, but what I have seems to work well.

So if I'm reading this right, you are "getting around" stacked zones, by including a path to other zones in current zone, which is quite nice, although it could get very cluttered if you were trying to cover all bases.

Would a "Go Previous" not be easier to navigate? Certainly in case where maybe you're only dropping into a zone for a tweak here or there and back out again.

I'm thinking you could free up more real-estate or combine some zones.

How are you exporting? or Is it just a way to organise before writing the zone?
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:35 AM   #3406
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Hope you're auto generating those .zon files
<sigh> I'm rather ashamed to admit that the spreadsheet was just a layout guide to let me easily see what would collide with whatThe .zon files were created manually (although my cut'n'paste kung fu is pretty awesome)<sigh>

I did wonder if the spreadsheet could be translated into the .zon format directly, but I didn't have the first idea how to do it. I'll read the link you posted and see if it's within my abilities

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So if I'm reading this right, you are "getting around" stacked zones, by including a path to other zones in current zone
Yes, that's right. The GoZone statements within the Zones provide a way to navigate to different sets of parameters.
Quote:
Would a "Go Previous" not be easier to navigate? Certainly in case where maybe you're only dropping into a zone for a tweak here or there and back out again.
Absolutely, although I usually use the same press to go into a Zone and come back out. Take a look at the two filter zones HYBRID_A_FILTER_1 and HYBRID_A_FILTER_2. In filter 1, D3 Press is GoZone HYBRID_A_FILTER_2 and in filter 2, D3 press is GoZone HYBRID_A_FILTER_1. Result: D3 press toggles back and forth between the two filters.

Quote:
although it could get very cluttered if you were trying to cover all bases
That's the challenge. I don't attempt to provide navigation 'to anywhere' from within each Zone, only to immediately useful destinations. I use A1-A8 to provide more 'global' navigation when needed.

I pretty much start using the thing and when I find that a particular piece of navigation would be useful, I add it in. Flipping back and forth between the two filters is an example of this, also flipping between the two envelopes (although I'm currently considering having them both on the surface at the same time)

The beauty of Geoff's Zone system is you can put anything anywhere and you can also have different mappings for the same thing (this is how I'm going to put both the filter and amplifier envelopes on the surface at the same time, in addition to what's available at the moment, not instead of)

Incidentally, Air Hybrid isn't exactly the greatest softsynth in the world, but it serves as a useful example because it's automation implementation doesn't seem to have any mistakes or omissions in it and it's £11.99 here:https://www.pluginboutique.com/produ.../1545-Hybrid-3)

Last edited by MixMonkey; 07-20-2019 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:13 PM   #3407
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<sigh> I'm rather ashamed to admit that the spreadsheet was just a layout guide to let me easily see what would collide with whatThe .zon files were created manually (although my cut'n'paste kung fu is pretty awesome)<sigh>

I did wonder if the spreadsheet could be translated into the .zon format directly, but I didn't have the first idea how to do it. I'll read the link you posted and see if it's within my abilities
Yeah, I'm gonna look into this, it's too good to turn down, see more below


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Yes, that's right. The GoZone statements within the Zones provide a way to navigate to different sets of parameters.


Absolutely, although I usually use the same press to go into a Zone and come back out. Take a look at the two filter zones HYBRID_A_FILTER_1 and HYBRID_A_FILTER_2. In filter 1, D3 Press is GoZone HYBRID_A_FILTER_2 and in filter 2, D3 press is GoZone HYBRID_A_FILTER_1. Result: D3 press toggles back and forth between the two filters.



That's the challenge. I don't attempt to provide navigation 'to anywhere' from within each Zone, only to immediately useful destinations. I use A1-A8 to provide more 'global' navigation when needed.

I pretty much start using the thing and when I find that a particular piece of navigation would be useful, I add it in. Flipping back and forth between the two filters is an example of this, also flipping between the two envelopes (although I'm currently considering having them both on the surface at the same time)

The beauty of Geoff's Zone system is you can put anything anywhere and you can also have different mappings for the same thing (this is how I'm going to put both the filter and amplifier envelopes on the surface at the same time, in addition to what's available at the moment, not instead of)

Incidentally, Air Hybrid isn't exactly the greatest softsynth in the world, but it serves as a useful example because it's automation implementation doesn't seem to have any mistakes or omissions in it and it's £11.99 here:https://www.pluginboutique.com/produ.../1545-Hybrid-3)
After thinking about how you use this, and how others likely would, and after having spent another day living in "How does one implement a decent ZoneStack ?" hell, I'm coming around to your way of thinking.

Think of the Zone stack as taking care of what we'll call the "back button issue".

If you are navigating from place to place you don't need the back button, as you indicate.

It's only when you get into "drill down" mode that you need to go back -- but there is good news here -- drill downs know who their parent is, so no need for a back button here either.

In there words no need for a back button at all -- aka no need for a Zone Stack.

There is another issue we've discussed -- what if you just want to toggle map Sends to whatever is on D1-D8, that could be as simple as refocusing, or re-pressing what ever the previous Zone is.

There is a granularity problem, which is solved programmatically with Included Zones, but needs a UI to keep from going crazy with all those Zones -- as in your example.

This is solved with the spreadsheet approach, we can now easily make a reasonable cross-platform interface leveraging the portability of .xls files.

So, I'm gonna clean up what we have here -- Sends, Focused FX, etc., get a build out, and move on to a bit of Excel programming, should be able to do a decent job of a UI in short order
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:20 PM   #3408
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I have the impression that there never was a workflow concept that has so much been thought about.

But this is perfectly reasonable, as this is a workflow concept that allows for defining workflows.

Thumbs up to the contributors !
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:17 AM   #3409
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I have the impression that there never was a workflow concept that has so much been thought about.

But this is perfectly reasonable, as this is a workflow concept that allows for defining workflows.

Thumbs up to the contributors !
-Michael
I think it was maybe more, if you decided on a workflow, then you build only that, Think Geoff was thinking much wider than that. Any surface. Any multiple surfaces, in any combination.
Workflow would be dictated by users and not by design.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:51 AM   #3410
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Exactly !
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:31 AM   #3411
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Just realized, these will all change as they imply a back button -- aka a concept of previous -- aka where did I come from.

MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets -- maps but does not unmap (aka go back) upon Track Deselction.

MapFocusedTrackFXToWidgets-- maps but does not unmap (aka go back) upon FX losing focus.

ToggleMapSends - this will go away -- GoZone Sends will be all that's needed.

This forces the question -- what to do if a track is Deselected, or an FX unfocused ?

Any ideas welcomed...
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:53 AM   #3412
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This forces the question -- what to do if a track is Deselected, or an FX unfocused

Any ideas welcomed...
If an FX is unfocussed because a new one is focussed, the new overwrites the old. If the FX is unfocussed because its window is closed, the surface 'goes home'.

In the C4 case this would be a full A1-D8 NoAction and in the case of the MCU, the regular Home of tracks, pans etc.

Quote:
what if you just want to toggle map Sends to whatever is on D1-D8, that could be as simple as refocusing, or re-pressing what ever the previous Zone is.
Exactly. On my C4 the ToggleMapSends button is SpotErase, which sits right next to Marker, Track, ChanStrip and Function, which are the buttons I use to GoZone major Zones in FX maps.

ToggleMapSends doesn't overwrite these buttons, so they should still be active when the sends are splayed.

In fact, if this is the case (can't really check until it's mended) ToggleMapSends really just needs to be MapSends. If you change the track selection, it splays the new track's sends, if you have no track selected it blanks/zeros. That leaves a D1-D8 hole in your FX map which can be repaired by either re-focussing the FX or pressing one of it's GoZone buttons(edit: just realised you said this with GoZone Sends)

Last edited by MixMonkey; 07-21-2019 at 04:56 AM. Reason: fully comprehend before you post
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:01 AM   #3413
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
There is a granularity problem, which is solved programmatically with Included Zones, but needs a UI to keep from going crazy with all those Zones -- as in your example.
Actually, the granularity is what stops you going crazy

Being able to divide the thing up into bite size chunks contained within different .zon files makes it a lot easier. Also, the soft synth was intentionally an extreme example, none of the effect plugins I own have maps remotely as complicated as this.

I use BBEdit on mac to edit all this stuff. It has the concept of a 'Project'. All of those .zon files are contained within it.

The whole lot can be searched and replaced (grep style). Columns of text can be selected and cut'n'pasted. It was one operation to change all my:
Code:
DisplayUpperA2		FXParamNameDisplay	"       "
DisplayLowerA2		FXParamNameDisplay	"       "	
RotaryA2		NoAction	
Toggle+RotaryPushA2	NoAction
into:
Code:
	     DisplayUpperA2	NoAction			
	     DisplayLowerA2	NoAction			
	      	   RotaryA2	NoAction						
	Toggle+RotaryPushA2	NoAction
....with search and replace.
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:28 AM   #3414
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Actually, the granularity is what stops you going crazy
I hear ya' on that

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Being able to divide the thing up into bite size chunks contained within different .zon files makes it a lot easier. Also, the soft synth was intentionally an extreme example, none of the effect plugins I own have maps remotely as complicated as this.

I use BBEdit on mac to edit all this stuff. It has the concept of a 'Project'. All of those .zon files are contained within it.

The whole lot can be searched and replaced (grep style). Columns of text can be selected and cut'n'pasted. It was one operation to change all my:
Code:
DisplayUpperA2		FXParamNameDisplay	"       "
DisplayLowerA2		FXParamNameDisplay	"       "	
RotaryA2		NoAction	
Toggle+RotaryPushA2	NoAction
into:
Code:
	     DisplayUpperA2	NoAction			
	     DisplayLowerA2	NoAction			
	      	   RotaryA2	NoAction						
	Toggle+RotaryPushA2	NoAction
....with search and replace.
BBEdit and Grep are your friends -- mine too
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:38 AM   #3415
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
If an FX is unfocussed because a new one is focussed, the new overwrites the old. If the FX is unfocussed because its window is closed, the surface 'goes home'.

In the C4 case this would be a full A1-D8 NoAction and in the case of the MCU, the regular Home of tracks, pans etc.
What about this use case:

Sends 1-8 are mapped to Channels 1-8 on an MCU.

Focused FX params are mapped to Channels 1-4 on the same MCU, overwriting Sends 1-4.

FX loses focus.

Channels 1-4 go "Home" to Tracks, but Channel 5-8 which are not in the FX Zone definition stay on Sends 5-8 of the selected Track -- ugghh.

I am hoping someone can come up with some magic here, but failing that, I think the best behaviour we can provide is the Deselected/Unfocused Zone just blanks to indicate it has lost context.
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:57 AM   #3416
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Sends 1-8 are mapped to Channels 1-8 on an MCU.

Focused FX params are mapped to Channels 1-4 on the same MCU, overwriting Sends 1-4.

FX loses focus.

Channels 1-4 go "Home" to Tracks, but Channel 5-8 which are not in the FX Zone definition stay on Sends 5-8 of the selected Track -- ugghh
Don't leave unblanked/unzeroed widgets in your FX map and you won't have this problem This was the first issue I ran into when I made my first 2 Zone FX map. Parameters from the first Zone persist when then the second Zone is called, unless the second zone blanks/zeros them (now a doddle with NoAction)

You have to balance the flexibility of allowing unblanked/unzeroed widgets on the surface (this is what the whole soft synth thing relies on) with mess you've just described. If you want it clean, you have to blank/zero stuff that won't be overwritten by the incoming Zone with new parameters.

Quote:
I think the best behaviour we can provide is the Deselected/Unfocused Zone just blanks to indicate it has lost context
I agree, providing It's not blanking everytime you switch zone.
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:41 PM   #3417
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Having thought about it off and on over the course of the day, I'd tend to agree with Mix' that blanking and no action, is probably the cleanest way to go,
If you see nothing you don't expect anything
If you're seeing controls and they don't work, you think something's gone awry.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:59 PM   #3418
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Hi all,

Could I just jump in here and ask about the X-Touch One? I'm thinking of getting one, and trying to get a sense of how well I can expect it to work in reaper.

What does/doesn't work?
How difficult is it to get working as best it can?
Should I give in and get a faderport instead?

Apologies for not reading through 80+ pages, but a lot of this stuff is over my head.
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Old Yesterday, 03:03 AM   #3419
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Good queation.

From some source (unknown):
>>>>>>>>
Alpha Release - This is the release when the feature which you are developing is incomplete or partially complete. Suppose in a Ticket booking system you have developed the seat selection but the payment implementation is remaining. In this case you can release it to testers to test the initial phase of feature. Lot of Open source products do their Alpha release.

Beta Release - This release is done when the product feature is complete and all the development is done but there are possibilities that it could contain some bugs and performance issues.This release mostly done to users who test the product and who can report the bugs. Even UAT phase could be considered as Beta release.
>>>>>>>>

So, I would say we go alpha once Folders and OSC are added.

Then everyone should jump in with particular feature requests for their dream workflow

Then, somewhat arbitrarily, we'll make the call to go beta.

The good news is the beta will be short, as we've been building in stability along the way.

Beta really means, it's complete -- we think -- programmer's famous last words -- hammer away at it, see if you can break it.

Well, we've been doing that all along, especially some great dedicated testers -- thanks folks !!

So, easy question too ask, a bit more tricky to answer
Thanks Geoff.. I can see that you and the team of testers are really doing sterling work. Unfortunately, I neither have the time or the programming knowledge to help out. It's all Dutch to me so I am looking forward to the time we have a Beta and some good documentation.
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Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM   #3420
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seeing some weirdness here, with bus/folders
-----------------------------------------------------------
SETUP and LAYOUT

I have
DRUM BUS Folder with 8 children
BASS BUS Folder with 2 children
GUITAR BUS Folder with 4 children

that will do for the example,

I have my reaper set to up with show/hide buttons for 3 States, ALL, BUSs, Children
I also have show/hide for each Instrument type, DRUMS, BASS, GUITAR etc.

I'm running 1 XT and MCU in that order.

My BUS/Folders stay in order

DRUM BUS/Children/BASS BUS/Children/GUITAR BUS/Children

--------------------------------------------------------
HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS

I open project template, and everything goes where it should be.

1-8 on XT 9-16 on MCU

Channel 1 is selected (DRUM BUS)

I press "BUS" to hide all but BUSes

BUS's displayed on MCU and XT blanks out. (which is the opposite of the previous build and a little weird).

I press "ALL" to show all

Nothing happens, until I select channel 8 or higher via reaper.

IF I select channels 8-15 all ok.

If I select channel 16 or more everything moves to have that selected channel on Channel 7 of the MCU. Unless I select the last channel then it shows on 8 of MCU, (that bit's fine)

But if I now select DRUM BUS on channel 1

Displays show track 2 on channel 1 and no DRUM BUS to get i to show i need to press (BANK Left or CHANNEL Left buttons on MCU)

--------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT I EXPECTED TO SEE

XT AND MCU populated from left to right following reaper.



Hope this all makes sense, on a positive note, adding and deleting tracks seems stable.
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