Old 06-10-2017, 12:39 PM   #1
aviorrok
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Default Recording vocal level

Hi,
I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJHm931XQGk&t=66s
And Kenny Gioia said -18 is the best level for recording guitar,vocals etc
I have 2 questions:

1. What is mean in -18 (he mean -18 db?)
2. When I recorded in -18 I can't hear me and I use normalize it's ok?
I have Steinberg UR242 and Shure SM58

Thanks!
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Old 06-10-2017, 02:19 PM   #2
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Simply, it means that if you aim for an RMS level of -18 (RMS means the average level as opposed the highest peak), normally any sudden peaks will not go over zero and distort.

The aim is to not set your level too high and have an unexpected loud peak distort. That number is a suggested average level for doing that as opposed to a target itself.

Real simple: Don't distort and make the red light flash.
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Old 06-10-2017, 02:59 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by aviorrok View Post
Hi,
I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJHm931XQGk&t=66s
And Kenny Gioia said -18 is the best level for recording guitar,vocals etc
I have 2 questions:

1. What is mean in -18 (he mean -18 db?)
2. When I recorded in -18 I can't hear me and I use normalize it's ok?
I have Steinberg UR242 and Shure SM58

Thanks!
-18 dB is regarded to be a very optimal recording level, because it has a very good signal-to-noise ratio. Also, -18 dBFS should correspond to 0 VU. Obviously if you have super expensive converters you can have a higher recording level, but for home studios -18 is the way to go.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:30 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DaveKeehl View Post
-18 dB is regarded to be a very optimal recording level, because it has a very good signal-to-noise ratio. Also, -18 dBFS should correspond to 0 VU. Obviously if you have super expensive converters you can have a higher recording level, but for home studios -18 is the way to go.
My take is that with super expensive converters you can have a LOWER recording level.

As far as #2, two things. First, as mentioned it's not 18 peak (what the peak meters peak at) but RMS (an average) so shooting to not peak over -18 is lower than what he's talking about. It depends totally on what's being recorded, but if you raise your level around 4 to 8 db you'll be in the ballpark of -18 RMS, very generally.

But this only refers to input level into Reaper, not output. If your track playback faders and master are up and your level to monitor is up (and your monitor is up healthy) you should have no problem hearing back a track recorded at that level. Normalizing won't kill you : ) but it's better to avoid destructive processing so early on, especially if you don't really need it. But it's possible that by trying to conservatively stay under -18 *peak* you recorded a track that's more like - 28 RMS. Just a guess.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:45 PM   #5
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My experience is also that with both higher quality (usually more expensive) mic preamps and AD converters that lower recording levels are improved.

To put it another way. With higher quality analog stages on the inputs and AD converters, the full analog input range is consistent quality from top to bottom. More budget input stages are more critical to dial in perfectly in the sweet spot because the extremes (low levels in this case) trail off in quality.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
My take is that with super expensive converters you can have a LOWER recording level
oh okay good to know! but with more high-end preamps you can have a higher input level with less noise in the background, don't you?
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by DaveKeehl View Post
oh okay good to know! but with more high-end preamps you can have a higher input level with less noise in the background, don't you?

Yes, very generally with a better preamp you can use more of it's complete range with less noise, as in recording a quiet instrument and needing to turn its input level way up without getting the added noise cheaper preamps have in that last 25% of gain. High end converters enable you to go with low levels though, for several reasons, mostly having to do with their own superior analog end and better conversion at low levels than cheap converters, though even cheap converters are so good these days that it's less about the difference between inferior converters and good ones than it is between good ones and audiophile ones that require an entire audiophile chain of room/mic/pre to benefit.

With the mediocre converters of yore you did have to hit them with healthy levels. All that is out the window pretty much these days. The best argument for a conservative level at the DAW input is that there's simply no reason to hit it any hotter, it won't sound better. And a hot level often means you've gone beyond the sweet spot of the gain stage(s) before it, such as the mic pre. With vocals it especially matters because you can be getting occasional preamp clips trying to hit it hotter (as well as using a noisier top % of the input) that aren't reflected in the DAW meter. Using the range of the input knob of the mic pre to obtain a particular sound is good, but not to push the level hotter than it needs to be into the DAW.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by aviorrok View Post
Hi,
I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJHm931XQGk&t=66s
And Kenny Gioia said -18 is the best level for recording guitar,vocals etc
I have 2 questions:

1. What is mean in -18 (he mean -18 db?)
2. When I recorded in -18 I can't hear me and I use normalize it's ok?
I have Steinberg UR242 and Shure SM58

Thanks!
May this article helps a bit:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160102...es/digital.htm

I think he talks about external versa internal levels.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:46 AM   #9
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So I reached to -18db but the spectrum is low, Is this how it should be?
(I don't know how to add photo)
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:08 PM   #10
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You should check to see which -18dB level he is referring to. -18dB analogue is actually -8 dB digital.

Yeap... digital dB measures are actually 10 dB less than analogue. I was told it was because analogue is more forgiving when it comes to saturation.
That's not even close to right. I don't mean to be a dick, but this is just plain disinformation.

The numbers in Reaper are dbFS. FS stands for Full Scale and means that the 0db = 1:1 reference here is exactly as loud as your converter will get. By itself, it tells us nothing about how that might translate to analog.

The reason this comes up over and over and confuses so many people is that how the dbFS numbers in Reaper relate to the actual voltage referenced decibel scales that we use in analog is completely up to the manufacturer of your interface.

Here I might should apologize a bit to bikerider. It is possible that somebody could build a converter that only puts out "-10db analog" when it's as loud as it gets. But then we'd have to ask what the reference is on the "db analog". If we mean dbu, then that is a really quiet signal. It would be very atypical of even the type of "prosumer" gear that most of use. Maybe the mic input on your laptop?

So if you've got analog gear with meters, and you're plugging into your interface either as an input or an output, and you want to know how those meters will line up with those in Reaper, then you have to either...

...peruse the specs for all of your gear. I promise you that no two pieces of gear that you're trying to plug into each other will use exactly the same terminology or even the same reference scales. You'll have to translate "headroom" to "maximum" and dbV to dbu and it'll be good fun and you'll learn a lot about your gear and audio engineering in general...

...or just plug it in and see.

The worst part of the whole thing is that there are no standards on the interface side. While 0dbFS = -10dbu really sucks, I've seen stats all over the place on popular models. Worse yet, the inputs don't always match the outputs!!!

Analog gear, OTOH, is pretty well standardized. Most things like preamps, compressors, mixers, etc, will run on one of two reference standards. The 0db mark on their VU meters will almost always be either -10dV or +4dbu. But in analog, that 0dbVU mark is going to be the "nominal" - expected/ideal average - level for that piece of gear. It will remain linear for some number of db over that. Much analog gear can go about 18db above before it starts to really distort, but some starts sooner, and some can go way past that.

Interface manufacturers expect that you'll run your analog gear that around that nominal level, but they usually also try to give you some headroom above that. Ideally, the interface wouldn't clip before the outboard gear, but all kinds of design decisions go into these things, and we end up with a realistic range of maximum levels on typical line inputs from like +15dbVU (+4dbu reference, so +19dbu) to like +20dbVU (+24dbu). Again, some are lower and some are higher, but the average is not coincidentally right around that same 18db we mentioned in the paragraph above.

So, when Kenny talks about -18, he means shoot for around -18dbfs in Reaper because it's probably pretty close to what would come in from your analog gear anyway, and it leaves plenty of room for transients to be much louder than the average without distorting...probably...as long as both your analog gear and converter don't have lower maxima.

Wait? You don't have any analog gear in your input stage? Just plugging right into the interface? Well, your interface is analog gear up til it hits the ADC, but it's likely that the only meters you have are the ones in Reaper. So shoot for -18dbfs because it's probably loud enough to be up out of the noise floor but not loud enough to distort.

In fact, through all of this, the numbers don't matter. It's the noise and the distortion that matters.

BUT...

...When you start mixing shit together, the levels at the Master are going to start to add up, and it turns out that - at least for most pop music genres - if your tracks all average around -18dbfs, they have a pretty good chance of still fitting through the Master without distorting much. Especially if their dynamics have been controlled reasonably well by the time they get there.

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Old 07-12-2017, 10:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by aviorrok View Post
So I reached to -18db but the spectrum is low, Is this how it should be?
(I don't know how to add photo)

it IS low. low volume -> low peaks. But can dial the visuals up to zoom
the spectrals (not the volume). Display gain in the Peaks Display Settings.

or you can normalize the volume after recording to a more visible
(and audible) level. but i guess it is always a good advice
to keep away from 0dB a little (or a little more).
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:46 PM   #12
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Oh yeah!

AND Reaper's normalize functions (like about everything else) are non-destructive. It literally just changes the item gain slider. You can adjust from there as necessary.
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:23 AM   #13
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That's not even close to right. I don't mean to be a dick, but this is just plain disinformation.

The numbers in Reaper are dbFS. FS stands for Full Scale and means that the 0db = 1:1 reference here is exactly as loud as your converter will get. By itself, it tells us nothing about how that might translate to analog.

The reason this comes up over and over and confuses so many people is that how the dbFS numbers in Reaper relate to the actual voltage referenced decibel scales that we use in analog is completely up to the manufacturer of your interface.

Here I might should apologize a bit to bikerider. It is possible that somebody could build a converter that only puts out "-10db analog" when it's as loud as it gets. But then we'd have to ask what the reference is on the "db analog". If we mean dbu, then that is a really quiet signal. It would be very atypical of even the type of "prosumer" gear that most of use. Maybe the mic input on your laptop?

So if you've got analog gear with meters, and you're plugging into your interface either as an input or an output, and you want to know how those meters will line up with those in Reaper, then you have to either...

...peruse the specs for all of your gear. I promise you that no two pieces of gear that you're trying to plug into each other will use exactly the same terminology or even the same reference scales. You'll have to translate "headroom" to "maximum" and dbV to dbu and it'll be good fun and you'll learn a lot about your gear and audio engineering in general...

...or just plug it in and see.

The worst part of the whole thing is that there are no standards on the interface side. While 0dbFS = -10dbu really sucks, I've seen stats all over the place on popular models. Worse yet, the inputs don't always match the outputs!!!

Analog gear, OTOH, is pretty well standardized. Most things like preamps, compressors, mixers, etc, will run on one of two reference standards. The 0db mark on their VU meters will almost always be either -10dV or +4dbu. But in analog, that 0dbVU mark is going to be the "nominal" - expected/ideal average - level for that piece of gear. It will remain linear for some number of db over that. Much analog gear can go about 18db above before it starts to really distort, but some starts sooner, and some can go way past that.

Interface manufacturers expect that you'll run your analog gear that around that nominal level, but they usually also try to give you some headroom above that. Ideally, the interface wouldn't clip before the outboard gear, but all kinds of design decisions go into these things, and we end up with a realistic range of maximum levels on typical line inputs from like +15dbVU (+4dbu reference, so +19dbu) to like +20dbVU (+24dbu). Again, some are lower and some are higher, but the average is not coincidentally right around that same 18db we mentioned in the paragraph above.

So, when Kenny talks about -18, he means shoot for around -18dbfs in Reaper because it's probably pretty close to what would come in from your analog gear anyway, and it leaves plenty of room for transients to be much louder than the average without distorting...probably...as long as both your analog gear and converter don't have lower maxima.

Wait? You don't have any analog gear in your input stage? Just plugging right into the interface? Well, your interface is analog gear up til it hits the ADC, but it's likely that the only meters you have are the ones in Reaper. So shoot for -18dbfs because it's probably loud enough to be up out of the noise floor but not loud enough to distort.

In fact, through all of this, the numbers don't matter. It's the noise and the distortion that matters.

BUT...

...When you start mixing shit together, the levels at the Master are going to start to add up, and it turns out that - at least for most pop music genres - if your tracks all average around -18dbfs, they have a pretty good chance of still fitting through the Master without distorting much. Especially if their dynamics have been controlled reasonably well by the time they get there.
Great Post!!!!
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:59 AM   #14
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Great Post!!!!
It is! just two additions...

-18 contains no magic, however if we average out a lot of analog gear and their greater than zero VU specs that *overall average* isn't that far off. That is important because manufacturers *must* allow for analog's ability to go over zero and thusly "push down" where analog zero lives on the digital scale - how far tends to also depend on the converters being 16 or 24 bit. My only point there is that it is not a complete uneducated wild guess, they are trying to find a reasonable middle ground to handle external gear - albeit again that doesn't make -18 special in anyway because..

What one really should do, if worried enough to even be asking, should just open up their interface manual and use that number instead. I think my FFUFX is -19 for example but don't quote me.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:34 PM   #15
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I was going through my old school notes

-12 dfs = 0 VU
As ashcat noted, the number is a bit of a generalization but not really 100% random. However, how long ago was school because -12 makes me think of where we might place that number with 16 bit converters notwithstanding my not doing any actual math.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:43 PM   #16
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So, when Kenny talks about -18, he means shoot for around -18dbfs in Reaper because it's probably pretty close to what would come in from your analog gear anyway, and it leaves plenty of room for transients to be much louder than the average without distorting...probably...as long as both your analog gear and converter don't have lower maxima.
Generally a helpful post, but -18dBFS (!) might end up way too low indeed. It's rather -18dB RMS, which seems to be a healthy level for most converters.

OP, you still might look up you converter's specs (-20/-18/-14, who knows?), but basically anything above is too hot (RMS!). Mixwise and analog-stage-wise.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:05 PM   #17
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People seem to be talking about convertors here as if that's the only thing that matters.

If you're using a mic preamp, EQ and or compressor they also have a range they consider nominal.

-18 is my non-geeky answer. In fact, I have little interest in getting geeky. We're not recording test tones so even if -18 is the best number, you're still almost never hitting that number. LOL
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:05 PM   #18
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I thought we were always talking about dBFS RMS - Kenny's video mentions this a number of times "we care about the average but it can peak higher" - makes sense since it is for beginners.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I thought we were always talking about dBFS RMS - Kenny's video mentions this a number of times "we care about the average" but it can peak higher - makes sense since it is for beginners.
Yes. Peaking at -18 is quite low although I'm sure it's fine.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
People seem to be talking about convertors here as if that's the only thing that matters.

If you're using a mic preamp, EQ and or compressor they also have a range they consider nominal.
I don't think I did, I covered both in the same post. The range is there for the benefit of the analog gear and it's nominal levels, and where that actually ends up in the DAW may vary based on the bit rate of the converters. The converter part is more of a legacy FYI as it is basically irrelevant now that most all are 24 bit.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:09 PM   #21
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I don't think I did, I covered both in the same post. The range is there for the benefit of the analog gear and it's nominal levels, and where that ends up in the DAW may vary based on the bit rate of the converters. The converter part is more of a legacy concern as it is basically irrelevant now that most all are 24 bit.
I guess I wasn't trying to correct anyone but I was trying to make this point clearer.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:15 PM   #22
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I guess I wasn't trying to correct anyone but I was trying to make this point clearer.
It's all good, I probably shouldn't have brought that difference up.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:37 PM   #23
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Generally a helpful post, but -18dBFS (!) might end up way too low indeed. It's rather -18dB RMS, which seems to be a healthy level for most converters.
RMS is not a db scale! It says that we're talking about an average over some time interval, but does not tell us what we're referencing against. What you seem to mean is -18dbFS RMS. I guess I could have been more clear that I was talking average levels, but I thought the point came across.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:53 PM   #24
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Mine 5 pence...

note: Analog levels, acoustic (dB/X SPL) levels and digital levels are three different realms. You can never match dBFS (digital) and dBu (volts, analogue). You can only take any volt level and say "This will be my dBFS clipping level, my Full Scale (dBFS) reference peak zero!" and start converting the values from that reference point.
dB(A/B/C) is acoustic (air) decibel, depends on average values for human ears, subjective A- quiet up to 50dB, B - mid intensive up to 85dB, C - above 86dB till pain levels!

BBC European: −18 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu
American US: −20 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu
Classic music: −24 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu
Radio broadcast pop-rock music: −14 dBFS = 0 VU = +4 dBu

-18dBFS is only a reference value for RMS (VU). It is derived from the analogue +20~22dB before audible (amplitude within 30ms VU of time slices) distortion occur, where noise sum was a big concern during mixing and overdubs - they wanted to record hot so they can attenuate noise level. Around +3dBu or +6dBu it was perceived as a "warm clipping" because at those levels the true-peaks of the audio were getting distorted. That is what most people refer as "analogue warmth" or "tube saturation" when trying to push their mixes up.
-18dBFS is preferred in practice because it gives you 3× 6dB of headroom which you can use for treating the true peaks values during mixing: adding effects, last level balance (automation curves for dynamic impacts) and final mastering. Of course at recording stage RMS can hit above -18dBFS even reach some -12dBFS to -10dBFS. Do not panic, gently apply compressor effect at the mixing stage (or maybe as input effect) process and do not worry. Try not to get tempted by that 'gain compensation' slider/knob too much though!

If you try to compete and enter the "Loudness war" zone of battle, that would be pointless. No need to go above -12dBFS RMS (for ½ or ⅓ seconds time interval). Your song will be adjusted by the broadcaster anyway according to the latest dBLU standards. If your song is "too loud" (above -18dBLU max. perception value throughout) they will lower it down -6LU. If it is "too quiet" bellow -24dBFS, they will raise it up automatically to -24LUFS (dBFS = LUFS in most perceptive range 1kHz to 3Khz), if they comply with the standard. Also they will adjust the peaks to hit around -2LUFS so they can use their equipment for final broadcast volume (compressors). Usually happens after converting formats, etc. to fit theirs online stream formats: Apple, Spotify or broadcast: TV, radio, public venues.


***** NERD ALERT !!! *****
Quote:
I always thought that it is all about voltage. Correct me if I am wrong but there is also voltage (usually mV) even via the USB/Firewire cable, right?
0.775 V ≡ 0 dBu - Audio engineering application (no impedance deviation), thus +6 dBu is 1.55 V, +12 dBu is 3.10 V, "peak RMS level" is 4.38 V (via USB ports, Firewire, though this is not their max. voltage capacity at all!)
Those tiny milli-voltages are stored discretely as portions of 3× 01010101 (24-bit depth, 3-bytes) => can allocate roughly -8 to +8 million (total of 16.7+ million) values, enough for 144dB levels transmitting to digital (noise level included) with PCM - pulse code modulation. Built-in noise shit is in 4 bit - so in reality 20 bit (depending on the voltage transmission of your device => quality, etc.) is the useful signal or around ~110dB (for very high-end converters). 20-bit gives us ~1 million values (range ± 502 400).
For voltage 0.000 to 4.380

A true analogue peak meter would (if could at all - physically impossible!) jump like crazy trying to be catching up with the peak signals of waves from 40Hz to 20KHz. That is why analogue peak meters measure VU (volume unit, volume of sound in time chunks) level (RMS in digital full scale dB), average level in average interval in time (around ⅓ of a second, depending on the needle response: inertia, mass, suspension).

Because analogue deals with electron flows a.k.a electric "current" its "resolution" is enormous for true peaks and harmonics (tube amp dist lovers, say "Hi"), hence clipping occurs randomly (each time) → smooth, warmth, asymmetric. Digital on the other hand gives us discrete blocks that would clip at the same value every time for a given frequency - nasty square wave "harmonics" and symmetric coldness. That is why 8-bit audio music sounded "static" (poor dynamics) and "square" (in low bit-rate), perceived as harshly distorted (for those who remember the 80s).

VU reference Level - scales the digital signal level dBFS to which the meter's 0VU point is referenced. The level can be adjusted from 0 to 24. This scales the 0VU from 0 dBFS to -24dBFS. (Standard setting would be "20 ref" resulting in a -20dBFS = 0VU to give 4dBRMS allowance).
Some digital audio equipments provide level selections to shift the analog output levels of 0VU to -18dBFS or -14dBFS. Lowering the dBFS relationship increases the audio sound levels output from the Dig. to An. converter.

Each halving of amplitude is a difference of about 6 dB. Each bit can store the digital values for 6dB of gain amplitude. 24 × 6 = 144dB theoretically. Practically it is around 100dB for consumer grade converters (4.38 Volts) covered by USB 2.0 (5V, 500mA).

That is why it is highly recommended to choose the best USB port in your system for digital audio via USB. Try one that does not share power with other components like LAN, Wi-Fi adapt. and so on to avoid Latency and drop-outs or even distortion-clipping.

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Old 07-20-2017, 09:30 PM   #25
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I think we've gone waaaayyy off track here, and I don't think we're helping the OP.

aviorrock asked how to post a picture. You can upload it to the Stash via the Resources link at the top of this (and every) page, and I think it will give you a forum code that you can just copy and paste into your message.

But beyond that it really all boils down to this:

Run your analog gear at ITS optimal level unless that starts to actually show clipping in Reaper.

If you're not using analog gear and/or Reaper's meters are all you've got, shoot for an average around -18dbFS. My track meters don't show me RMS readings (actually they don't show me db readings at all), but my Master does, but...

...don't worry that much about it. We have plenty of clean, flat, quiet ways to turn it up (or down) once it's recorded. As long as you don't have unwanted distortion or unacceptable noise, you're good.


And now back to the derailment...
Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok
...hence clipping occurs randomly each time...
There is a lot of good information mixed in with some mild misinterpretations and a little bit of just plain WTF? This one is wrong and yet I sort of agree with it.

Analog distortion tends to be curvy - it deviates further and further from the correct voltage as it gets closer to the absolute limit. Digital clipping should be truly square - linear right up until it can't anymore. IRL interfaces, there's a bit of a "chicken and egg" thing that the manufacturers never really tell you about, and you have to figure it out by listening.

Analog clipping is also almost always at least slightly assymetrical. Either the bias is slightly off or the device clips differently to its negative rail than to its positive rail. Assuming the signal itself is symmetrical and does not contain a DC offset, digital will always be symetrical.

True randomness in any of this is exactly noise.

But I do believe that noise is an important part of the sound of analog (euphonic?) distortion. The fact that any instantaneous voltage has some randomness to it MUST affect the harmonics produced.

Nobody but a whackjob wants to clip their converters, but I have for quite a while taken to adding just a touch of noise (more than dither, closer to tape) going into my mastering chain, and part of the reason why is to randomize the input to my (curvy and slightly assymetrical) clipper. I'm sure I'd never pass the double blind test, but I'm also convinced it makes a difference.

But that IS again just subtly different from actually "shaking the rails". This is something I've been meaning to try for a while...
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:23 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
True randomness in any of this is exactly noise.

Precisely! By "random" I meant that it is different each time ever so slightly human ear cannot make a real difference yet.


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... adding just a touch of noise (more than dither, closer to tape) going into my mastering chain, and part of the reason why is to randomise the input to my (curvy and slightly asymmetrical) clipper. I'm sure I'd never pass the double blind test, but I'm also convinced it makes a difference.
That is what people try to emulate with "tube/tape saturation" plugins. I think for CD quality dithering is a good option to apply if you mixdown from 24-bit/48kHz (64-bit internal processing) to final 16-bit/44.1kHz. It is more of a trick like anti-aliasing of a vector rendered lines to an image file. But iamge dither is very different from audio dither regarding bit depth and resolution.
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Old 07-21-2017, 07:40 AM   #27
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basically you record as loud as possible , so your noisefloor is as far away from the sound as possible, without overdriving your soundcards input converters

thats the most logical and pretty easy to understand imho ....

it can then be easily dialed to any measurement and standard that you want in post
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Old 07-21-2017, 07:54 AM   #28
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basically you record as loud as possible , so your noisefloor is as far away from the sound as possible, without overdriving your soundcards input converters
That means you are running you analog preamps or other gear hot. Think about it, if for sake of argument, your SC is calibrated so that 0VU = -18dbFS, then recording as close as you can to zero dBFS means your preamp is running at +18.

That's fine if that is the result you want but it's undercutting the reason for running the analog side in it's prescribed nominal range. If digital didn't exist would you want to be running all your analog gear at +18? Keep it peaking around -12 ish and you get the best of both worlds as what's left is for internal headroom after the fact.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:43 AM   #29
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bikerider - you do what works for you, but what you're saying makes absolutely no sense to the rest of us and is essentially disinformation - obscuring the real facts and causing more confusion than necessary.

Like, that whole last post is fucked, and I don't have time or patience to go through and pick it apart to correct it. Especially since the reality of the sotuation has been pretty clearly explained a couple times now.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:30 PM   #30
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For me, this is how I record. In Reaper I have the input coming in at -4dB. Yes. It's hot. but that what I was taught to do. Record as hot as possible. Now... me understanding that digital 0dB is equal to -10dB analogue means that -4dB on Reaper is -14dB coming from my recording interface. That's right in the sweet spot between -18dB and -12dB. I get very clear, very clean tracks, both vocally and instrumentally.
Well I'm sort of amazed at how tightly you hold on to what you were told ~15 years ago without even questioning or testing it. Are you sure there isn't a conflation between peak and dBFS RMS?
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:08 AM   #31
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For my Komplete Audio 6 (USB 2.0) it says:
24-bit depth @ (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96)kHz (I know it is more like 20-bit depth though, because it has 101dB/A SNR, and 96db/A SNR through headphones)
Converter: Cirrus Logic

Maximum Output Level: 9.6dBu
Headphone max. output level: 9.3dBu
Voltage RMS: 4.26V (100mW @ 100 Ohms)

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Old 07-22-2017, 05:45 AM   #32
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UFX:

• Resolution AD: 24 bit
• Signal to Noise ratio (SNR): 110 dB RMS unweighted, 113 dBA
• Frequency response @ 44.1 kHz, -0.1 dB: 15 Hz – 21.5 kHz
• Frequency response @ 96 kHz, -0.5 dB: 7 Hz – 45.5 kHz
• Frequency response @ 192 kHz, -1 dB: 5 Hz – 66.5 kHz
• THD: < -110 dB, < 0.00032 %
• THD+N: < -104 dB, < 0.00063 %
• Channel separation: > 110 dB
• Maximum input level: +19 dBu
• Input: 6.3 mm TRS jack, electronically balanced
• Input impedance: 10 kOhm
• Input sensitivity switchable to Lo Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
• Input level for 0 dBFS @ Lo Gain: +19 dBu
• Input level for 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu
• Input level for 0 dBFS @ -10 dBV: +2 dBV
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:51 AM   #33
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For me, this is how I record. In Reaper I have the input coming in at -4dB. Yes. It's hot. but that what I was taught to do. Record as hot as possible. Now... me understanding that digital 0dB is equal to -10dB analogue means that -4dB on Reaper is -14dB coming from my recording interface. That's right in the sweet spot between -18dB and -12dB. I get very clear, very clean tracks, both vocally and instrumentally.

When mixing for mastering purposes (and I was told this by Enforcer when he mastered my first album, so talk with him about it, and it was confirmed by a second Mastering Engineer I had do my second album) Set the mix to have peaks no higher than -6dB. The master mix (in some of my songs) sits as low as -18dB. That's to ensure there are no peaks above -6dB.

That's how I record and prepare my mixes for mastering. I never normalise either. I was told by several pro engineers that this is not acceptable. Instead of normalising a quiet track I run up to 4 copy tracks to build the volume. It keeps the noise down and the signal clear.

for aviorrok: recording between -18dB and -12dB analogue is your sweet spot. I record at around -14dB analogue (-4db digital / in Reaper).
What was true with older 16 bit SC wich had lower sound to noise ratio is not valid for today 24 bit SC. Also a lot of the older generation engineers still proceed like they are recording on tape where noise was a real problem.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRzAcTAYjw
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Pinknoise View Post
What was true with older 16 bit SC wich had lower sound to noise ratio is not valid for today 24 bit SC. Also a lot of the older generation engineers still proceed like they are recording on tape where noise was a real problem.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRzAcTAYjw
Every time I hear that guy all I can hear in my head is..

"I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt, so sexy, it hurts"

His point about leaving headroom is correct but to be fair some of what he is stating (MixBus Guy) is wrong such as "pushing converters sounds bad". A poster here proved to my satisfaction this isn't accurate both by testing and contacting a number of manufacturers directly. Of course the guy in the video sort of recants that later by saying "probably does that but don't over think it".
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:30 AM   #35
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Every time I hear that guy all I can hear in my head is..

"I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt, so sexy, it hurts"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ
Sound like him does'nt it !
Mixbustv is my prefered channel for audio tips. He always brings great stuff and demystifies a lot of beliefs. Human has been so persecuted by religion its in its genes to easily fall for make beliefs.

Many people noticed their mix sounded better when they stopped recording too hot.

A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth
Joseph Goebbels

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Old 07-22-2017, 09:18 AM   #36
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• Input sensitivity switchable to Lo Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
• Input level for 0 dBFS @ Lo Gain: +19 dBu
• Input level for 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu
• Input level for 0 dBFS @ -10 dBV: +2 dBV
Wow. That's... Hmmm...

So, if you was gonna interface with "professional" +4dbu gear, you'd figure you should flip that switch to the +4dbu setting, but then your nominal level (0VU on the analog side) will sit at -9dbFS! That might work okay for most things, but doesn't leave much wiggle room for peaks.

Set it to Lo Gain, and you'd be sitting around -15dbFS, which is still higher than the -18dbFS "standard".

Now I'll show you mine

My live rig is through a Tascam US1641, and it says

MIC IN
Input level (Gain at maximum): -58dbu
Input level (Gain at minimum): -2dbu
Headroom: 16db

LINE IN
Input level (Gain at maximum): -42dbu
Input level (Gain at minimum): +4dbu
Headroom: 16db


It says that my line inputs (gain at min) should nominally hit around -16dbFS when analog gear hits 0dbVU. It also says that the mic inputs basically have 6db of gain even when the knob is all the way down. This is important (to me) because I routinely plug things like keyboards into those holes for convenience sake. So, I do have to watch those levels a little bit.

My studio rig uses an Alesis HD24 for conversion, and it says

Input levels: nominal +4dBu, maximum +19dBu

Which means I have 15db of headroom: 0dbVU = -15dbFS which is less than I had before when I was using the Fostex D2424LV, which says:

Ref. Level: Switchable to -12dB/-20dB
Analog Input (1 to 8)
Ref. Input Level : +4dBu

Which is a weird way to say that the maximum input on that sucker was +24dbu, and nominal inputs would hit -20dbFS.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:23 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Wow. That's... Hmmm...

So, if you was gonna interface with "professional" +4dbu gear, you'd figure you should flip that switch to the +4dbu setting, but then your nominal level (0VU on the analog side) will sit at -9dbFS! That might work okay for most things, but doesn't leave much wiggle room for peaks.
REG: Input level for 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu

How come the fact they reference +4 = 13 doesn't already take that into account? When I tested yesterday doing as you describe, it came in smack dab at -13 dBFS.

IIRC Same for low gain, which is the one I use the most since I have 8 pres that need it in my lunch box and also my ADL600 aka set the analog output VU to 0dB and it shows up as -19 dbFS RMS when using the low gain setting.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:30 AM   #38
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How come the fact they reference +4 = 13 doesn't already take that into account? When I tested yesterday doing as you describe, it came in smack dab at -13 dBFS.
Well, that doesn't make any damn bit of sense whatsover! The difference between 13dbu and 4dbu is 9dbu in every universe I've ever encountered, and I really don't see what there is to "take into account" in this case. ???
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:34 AM   #39
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Well, that doesn't make any damn bit of sense whatsover! The difference between 13dbu and 4dbu is 9dbu in every universe I've ever encountered, and I really don't see what there is to "take into account" in this case. ???
I just figured it was literal, "using +4? then it comes in as -13" feel free to excuse my ignorance on that one. Otherwise...

I couldn't tell ya, all I know is I plugged in a sine wave, then white noise into my pre, set the output VU to 0dB (it has an actual VU), it was -13 dBFS RMS for both of those in Reaper when set to +4. I could test again but its not anything I'm worried about, I only did it as a reminder for my gear since I was going on about it.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:50 AM   #40
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I just figured it was literal, "using +4? then it comes in as -13" feel free to excuse my ignorance on that one. Otherwise...
That's what it seems to be trying to say, but that's not at all what it actually says what it says is that a +13dbu signal should hit 0dbFS, which necessarily means that +4dbu will hit -9dbFS.

What's even more frustrating is that all of the other inputs on the thing have cut-and-dried maximum input levels listed!

This is the hardest part of the whole thing. Every manufacturer has a different way of writing their specs, and far too often they are pretty obviously not written by or for anybody who actually knows what they're talking about.

All I need to know is the peak-to-peak voltage that corresponds to 0dbFS, but they don't always want to just be that honest.
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