Old 07-19-2013, 08:08 PM   #1
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Default MIDI Clock/SPP Broken!

Yamaha MOX Synth used for this test

Reaper sends MIDI Clock/SPP to the external synth when in PLAY mode. The song/sequence data on the external synth plays in sync and responds correctly to transport commands (play, pause, continue & stop) and tempo changes. No problem in PLAY mode.

However, It doesn't work at all in RECORD mode. The external synth's sequencer doesn't start when Reaper's RECORD button is clicked.

Reaper start recording, but the external synth doesn't start playing.

I've checked Reaper's settings and can't find any option or setting that says "Don't send MIDI Clock while recording".

This is definitely a bug.

Logic 9 doesn't behave like this. Neither does Studio One or Cubase (other hosts I've tried).
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:15 AM   #2
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I can't reproduce that, Andy. When I configure REAPER to send MIDI Clock/SPP to a MIDI output device, it sends the Clock / SPP data as expected, *also* when recording.

(I do see way too much CC# 123 and am still missing slaving REAPER to MIDI Clock, though...)
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:50 AM   #3
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Did you check both checkboxes for recording and playback in the sync context menu of the play button?
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:59 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Did you check both checkboxes for recording and playback in the sync context menu of the play button?
Those are for slaving REAPER to an external clock source, not for slaving an external target to REAPER.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:10 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Did you check both checkboxes for recording and playback in the sync context menu of the play button?
Thanks for the replies guys.

Ollie, yes, they're both checked, but that's for receiving external sync as far as I can tell. Makes no difference when Reaper is the master.

Banned, hearing that it's working there makes it even more frustrating for me. I know there's nothing wrong with the synth - it works perfectly with Cubase and Studio One on the same system.

Stumped
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:27 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
Thanks for the replies guys.

Ollie, yes, they're both checked, but that's for receiving external sync as far as I can tell. Makes no difference when Reaper is the master.

Banned, hearing that it's working there makes it even more frustrating for me. I know there's nothing wrong with the synth - it works perfectly with Cubase and Studio One on the same system.

Stumped
I hear you, this stuff can be extremely frustrating. :-/
(Note that I'm on OS X, which may make some difference, as that seems to have better built-in MIDI support than Windows; I also have zero experience with the Yamaha MOX Synth.)

I would suggest using a MIDI monitor tool and investigate exactly what data REAPER is sending, compared to the hosts that do work as expected on your system. But I guess you already did that, reading your description?
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:48 AM   #7
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Sorry, turbo-reading

Did you reboot the computer, restart the MOX and all? I wouldn't know what could possibly distinguish between playback and recording there, the MOX most probably doesn't (can't make it misbehave like that anyway with anything in Utility->MIDI->Sync).
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Sorry, turbo-reading

Did you reboot the computer, restart the MOX and all? I wouldn't know what could possibly distinguish between playback and recording there, the MOX most probably doesn't (can't make it misbehave like that anyway with anything in Utility->MIDI->Sync).
Like I said earlier: The MOX sequencer is working perfectly with other hosts. Reaper is the only host I've tried which displays this behaviour, and it does it every time.

All the sync settings in Reaper are correct as far as I can tell, and it works in "Play" mode - just not in "Record".

Sorry Ollie but I don't know what you mean by "Utility->MIDI->Sync".
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:15 PM   #9
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Hmm I'm seeing the MIDI clock messages being sent in record mode EXACTLY the same as in playback mode... For example, in both cases, starting at 2.1.00, at 120bpm 4/4 48khz, I get:
Code:
debug_midiout: [bl39124: 0]: f2 10 00
debug_midiout: [bl39124: 0]: fb 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39127: 232]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39131: 208]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39135: 184]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39139: 160]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39143: 136]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39147: 112]: f8 00 00
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Hmm I'm seeing the MIDI clock messages being sent in record mode EXACTLY the same as in playback mode... For example, in both cases, starting at 2.1.00, at 120bpm 4/4 48khz, I get:
Code:
debug_midiout: [bl39124: 0]: f2 10 00
debug_midiout: [bl39124: 0]: fb 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39127: 232]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39131: 208]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39135: 184]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39139: 160]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39143: 136]: f8 00 00
debug_midiout: [bl39147: 112]: f8 00 00
Well then I don't understand. I appreciate your reply Justin - it's nice to know you're interested in this. But all I can tell you is, it's not working here.

If you need some specs:

Win 7 64 bit running Reaper 32 bit version 4.402
Yamaha/Steinberg USB ASIO driver - latest version
Yamaha MOX 6 synth connected via USB

I also have Cubase & Studio One on this system, and they're working perfectly with the MOX.

I wonder if any other users can reproduce this..?
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:12 PM   #11
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Maybe I should try the 64 bit version.

Can I have both 32 & 64 versions of Reaper installed at the same time?
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:21 PM   #12
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Update:

Just installed Reaper 64 bit and it's the same...

PLAY = OK

RECORD = NO GO

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Old 07-20-2013, 10:37 PM   #13
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Did that ever work for you or did you try recording the sequencer output for the first time (that's what you're trying to do right)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
Sorry Ollie but I don't know what you mean by "Utility->MIDI->Sync".
The Utility button/page and the MIDI->Sync soft buttons on the MOX, IOW my MOX syncs tempo on record and play, and SPP when the MOX is in song mode.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Did that ever work for you or did you try recording the sequencer output for the first time (that's what you're trying to do right)?
Yes, I've done that many times in Cubase and Studio One. It's the first time I've tried it in Reaper though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
The Utility button/page and the MIDI->Sync soft buttons on the MOX, IOW my MOX syncs tempo on record and play, and SPP when the MOX is in song mode.
Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about something in Reaper. Yes, the MOX is set up correctly. As I've said, it works flawlessly with Cubase & Studio One, and plays correctly with Reaper. It only fails with Reaper's record mode.

This is so frustrating. Banned, Justin and your good self all say it's working, but for me it isn't.

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Old 07-21-2013, 02:29 AM   #15
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OK... Here's an update...

It works when Pre-roll is off.

I had Pre-roll set for 2 measures previously and although playback was fine, record wasn't.

I just tried disabling pre-roll and it worked fine.

Does this still count as a bug?



Anyway, at least I figured it out.
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:39 AM   #16
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That depends on the position of the Edit Cursor.

External sequencer doesn't start...:

- When metronome count-in (1 bar) is on, and Edit Cursor starts from 0:00.000/1.1.00 - Edit Cursor needs to be set to 2.1.00 to start the sequencer

- When pre-roll is on (1 bar) is on, and Edit Cursor starts from 0:00.000/1.1.00 - Edit Cursor needs to be set to 2.1.00 to start the sequencer

When preroll and count-in are adding up to 2 bars, the Edit Cursor needs to be set to 3.1.00.

So yes, the workaround is turning off pre-roll/count-in, or setting the Edit Cursor to a later position, I don't know if that's a problem when the external sequencer has data at 1.1.00 (2 of the 3 MOX demo songs start at bar 2, 1 starts at 1.3.00), and it looks like a bug. Or a rabbit. Not sure.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:28 AM   #17
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That depends on the position of the Edit Cursor.

[...] and it looks like a bug. Or a rabbit. Not sure.
Glad to see you found out what caused this.

Of course the position of the edit cursor should be irrelevant to the MIDI output. So I'd call it a bug, although it may well have long ears and excels at multiplication.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Banned View Post
So I'd call it a bug, although it may well have long ears and excels at multiplication.
You mean like this little fella..?



Then I guess it's a rabbit-bug.



Cheers, Andy
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:06 AM   #19
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You mean like this little fella..?



Then I guess it's a rabbit-bug.



Cheers, Andy
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:20 PM   #20
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hi gents,

i can confirm there's definitely a bug w/reaper's sync when i try to record using an outboard synth/sequencer, even w/settings that don't use the count-off.

brief summary-
- REAPER 4.402 running on Windows 7sp1 x64, 16gb RAM
- Edirol UA-1000 audio interface
- Kurzweil K2600xs synth/sequencer
when reaper is configured to sync to an external clock, it will not start recording at all; i press play on the synth, the synth starts playing, but reaper's big red attention box continues to flash red. [anecdotally, this problem doesn't occur using the identical configuration but substituting sonar x1 x64 or an older 32-bit version of cubase for reaper.]

see http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=1211699 for details, including all the different things i've tried.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave007 View Post
[...] when reaper is configured to sync to an external clock, it will not start recording at all; [...]
Hey Dave, sorry to hear about your troubles, but to avoid confusion, we really should be a bit more specific in describing these things: this thread was discussing using REAPER as a *MIDI Clock* / SPP sync *master*; and REAPER does not (yet?) support slaving REAPER to an incoming MIDI Clock. Your issues seem to relate to using MIDI Time Code (MTC), which is something different than MIDI Clock.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
OK... Here's an update...

It works when Pre-roll is off.

I had Pre-roll set for 2 measures previously and although playback was fine, record wasn't.

I just tried disabling pre-roll and it worked fine.

Does this still count as a bug?
Ah, for MIDI clock sending we send the initial position (SPP), and it's possible that the pre-roll is sending a negative initial position, which could be causing problems with your synthesizer. I'll look into what the best way to handle this is, but for the interim avoiding preroll when starting at the beginning might be good (you could also set the project measure offset to something nonzero, like 10, for new projects, which would give you leeway to preroll as you like).
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:29 AM   #23
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Thanks Justin.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:33 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned View Post
Hey Dave, sorry to hear about your troubles, but to avoid confusion, we really should be a bit more specific in describing these things: this thread was discussing using REAPER as a *MIDI Clock* / SPP sync *master*; and REAPER does not (yet?) support slaving REAPER to an incoming MIDI Clock.
ah, ok. i wasn't aware of that... there's nothing in the software [or the manual, for that matter] that implies this. in fact, section 21.6 of the manual states just the opposite. given that reaper behaves contrary to what the docs say it should, i figured this was a bug.

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Your issues seem to relate to using MIDI Time Code (MTC), which is something different than MIDI Clock.
actually, they don't; i had set reaper's sync option to use spp, not mtc.

...unless i'm not understanding some of the finer points of you're talking about?

in any event, it seemed to me, since i was also having sync problems w/reaper syncing to transmitted song position pointers, that this would be the thread to bring that up. i'll open a new bug report about to cover this.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave007 View Post
ah, ok. i wasn't aware of that... there's nothing in the software [or the manual, for that matter] that implies this. in fact, section 21.6 of the manual states just the opposite. given that reaper behaves contrary to what the docs say it should, i figured this was a bug.
Does it? The section "Syncing to an External Device" does not mention MIDI Clock as an option for syncing as a slave to an external device, it only mentions "Sending Clock/SPP from REAPER to an external MIDI Device". I can see how it can be confusing, though... I guess that last part would better be placed in a separate section, to avoid confusion.
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actually, they don't; i had set reaper's sync option to use spp, not mtc.

...unless i'm not understanding some of the finer points of you're talking about?

in any event, it seemed to me, since i was also having sync problems w/reaper syncing to transmitted song position pointers, that this would be the thread to bring that up. i'll open a new bug report about to cover this.
I was distinguishing between MIDI Clock vs MTC, not SPP - SPP can be sent along with both MIDI Clock and MTC, but is not in itself a clock signal; it only 'syncs' the song position. I was assuming you were using MTC (+SPP) since you were referring to that here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave007 View Post
[...] the k2600 can be set to transmit midi timecode and song position pointer, and that's the way i handle transferring from the synth into the daw. i've followed the reaper documentation [section 21.6 of the manual] to follow external sync, but regardless of whether i set reaper to follow mtc or spp, the flashing 'waiting for timecode' window doesn't go away when i hit playback on my synth. [...]
What currently seems to be missing, or at least is too broken to be useful, is syncing REAPER to MIDI Clock + SPP. That's the only way to maintain sync (although some slight amount of jitter is to be expected) to a musical tempo, while still being able to vary the tempo at will.

It would make an excellent addition to the current MIDI love affair, imho.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:57 PM   #26
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Hi there, interesting to read this. Will Reaper ever sync to MIDI clock, as opposed to MTC?

Thanks,
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