Using Outboard Hardware in Reaper

raymour · 07-16-2013, 04:39 PM

Hello, I'm looking at Reaper and my one concern is will I be able to use outboard EQ's and Compressors with Reaper. I have heard that the Reainsert function is not that great and that sending tracks out like for example the Master drum buss, to outboard compressors and Eq's may not line up on the way back in. I understand that I may have to nudge the tracks in line, but I guess I want as simple a situation as possible and don't want to spend a lot of time fussing with issues like lining up tracks and realated phase problems. Of course I know I can use plugins and not have to deal with any of this in the first place, but I like my outboard gear and want to use them as much as possible. So can Reaper provide me with a simple solution to routing audio to my outboard for processing? Thanks for any guidance you all can give me.

effitall · 07-16-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymour

Hello, I'm looking at Reaper and my one concern is will I be able to use outboard EQ's and Compressors with Reaper. I have heard that the Reainsert function is not that great and that sending tracks out like for example the Master drum buss, to outboard compressors and Eq's may not line up on the way back in. I understand that I may have to nudge the tracks in line, but I guess I want as simple a situation as possible and don't want to spend a lot of time fussing with issues like lining up tracks and realated phase problems. Of course I know I can use plugins and not have to deal with any of this in the first place, but I like my outboard gear and want to use them as much as possible. So can Reaper provide me with a simple solution to routing audio to my outboard for processing? Thanks for any guidance you all can give me.

I'm a pretty vocal critic of ReaInsert and have experienced its many eff-ups over the years. I have to say that it's significantly better than it used to be and today I use it quite extensively. The project I have up right now has a dozen or so inserts with a combination of analog and digital processing.

Where I find Reainsert fails is when you start nesting it. Reainsert on kick/snare for hardware comps, then a reainsert on the drum subgroup with another reainsert on the master bus for instance. I won't speculate on why that is...But my experience seems to be that the more complicated your routing, and the more nested things are with respect to Reainsert and latency calculations, the more problems you're going to have with Reainsert.

Other than that...Have no fear. Download Reaper, load up some files and do a mix. That's the best way to see if you'll have issues. Just be sure to have the "auto-save" feature turned on. Hit me up if you need some assistance with it.

raymour · 07-16-2013, 05:11 PM

Thanks for your insight, anyone else?

raymour · 07-17-2013, 03:51 AM

Anyone else using outboard EQ or Compressors? Any thoughts or experiences?

henge · 07-17-2013, 04:37 AM

effital sums it up quite nicely!;-)

The Byre · 07-17-2013, 05:00 AM

Using outboard integrated with a DAW usually requires a mixing desk with the DAW patched into the desk via an ADDA. In other words you are using the DAW with the hardware and not the hardware with the DAW. So-called hybrid desks have this built in and the DAW is patched into the analogue channel strip. They range from the R16 from Allen & Heath for under $2,000, to the Duality from SSL for over 100 times as much. A&H also do the elegant R24 which is also a DAW controller (HUI) for about $8,000+.

You can of course put together the components of a hybrid desk, by using the insert on an ordinary desk and going into the DAW via an ADDA.

Latency is your enemy when you are tracking and for that reason, I track with a 48-track Radar from iZ-Tech ( http://www.izcorp.com/products/radar/ ) via an in-line desk (latency round-trip of 1.2ms) and do the editing later in a DAW.

For ordinary hobby use, this is a bit over the top and there are plenty of desks that have an integrated multitrack ADDA and are not too shabby, such as the Phonic PHHB24U that uses Firewire and/or USB and has 18 ADs and 2 DAs. You should be able to pick one up for about $800. They also do the Helix Board 12 Plus at c.a. $400 which gives you eight AD channels, but only two inserts.

If you already have a desk and it has at least 16 inserts, there is the Cymatic Audio Live Recorder LR-16 - a 16-track 24-bit 96kHz converter/recorder with integrated software control for your PC that has a RRP of $500.

Johann · 07-17-2013, 06:25 AM

I used ReaInsert in a project with an extarenal hardware reverb. I just had one aux-channel in Reaper with ReaInsert in it. All other channels were sending audio to the aux-channel. I expirienced a strange behaviour: The more signals I sent to the aux-channel the more cpu-power was used. Ok, doesnt sound too strange. But the cpu-usage dropped significantly when I removed ReaInsert.

As I understand it, ReaInsert should not make a difference wether more or less signals are sent to it, because the signals are summed into one anyway.

raymour · 07-17-2013, 08:13 AM

The Byre, thanks for your detailed explanation. At this point my thought was to shoot say a vocal out to my EQ and Compressor, process and then record back into the DAW, line it up and mute the original. It's the amount of lining back up that concerns me. Using my outboard as inserts and returns just seems more efficient and considerably less costly.

effitall · 07-17-2013, 04:30 PM

I don't think you're following what Reainsert does....

Take your vocal track...Put Reainsert in your effects bin and select appropriate outputs and inputs of your soundcard and hook up your outboard to those I/O's.

At this point, when you play your project, you'll hear your vocal running through all the hardware you patched in via Reainsert in perfect sync with the rest of your tracks.

If you want to save it as a new track....Just record enable the track andset it to record the output. You then record, and bypass your effects bin and you're done.

You don't need a mixer to use hardware outboard, you don't have to manually align tracks after you record them either. Using Reainsert is just like using any other plugin in Reaper.

I'd go into more detail...But I'm on my phone. Again...If you have questions about how to effectively work with ReaInsert...Hit me up. More than happy to help.

raymour · 07-18-2013, 04:56 AM

I understand what the Reinsert does, my concern all along was with the accuracy and complexity of Reaper and the use of outboard hardware in the mixing process. Being in the market for a new DAW, this functionality of routing thru my hybrid system is a key feature of what I need to achieve. Some DAW's seem to meld better and provide simpler options for mixing with outboard gear. Whether it's "nesting" or a possible complex routing scheme, i don't want to worry about accuracy. I do appreciate your honesty and experience.

effitall · 07-18-2013, 02:44 PM

Fair enough...

I used to use Reainsert on individual elements of a drum kit. Like kick or snare. Maybe a sum of the toms into some sort of stereo comp. It actually worked fine like that. Occasionally Reainsert would glitch and I'd have to stop/start playback again...But I never really had problems with it ever being consistently out of sync requiring me to manually align anything. (A far cry from my experiences with Sonar.)

These days, I mainly use it for buses. Kinda like mixing through a summing box. Each "group" of instruments goes through some analog love for additional processing. Bass guitar and my main vocal tracks will usually get their own specific outboard treatment which sometimes ends up nested into a bus with other analog processing on it. Despite my warnings above..This usually works out fine to an extent.

I never feel the groove get lost, things getting out of sync, or other oddities with Reainsert. The key is to properly setup Reaper for any recording delay compensation as well as configuring Reainsert for proper latency compensation. I would also recommend that you have plenty of the same I/O to use. I found much more instability with having multiple Reainsert instances with different latency settings.

The easiest thing to do is just download Reaper and try it out. Assuming you've got a beefy system (does anyone not have an i7 these days?) and solid I/O you should be able to run multiple instances of Reainsert with absolutely no issues at all at low latencies.

raymour · 07-19-2013, 08:12 PM

Hey thanks again, like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm looking for a simple solution to my situation. For me outboard EQ and Compression is key. The DAW is secondary, important but secondary in that it needs to provide the type of routing to achieve the hybrid setup that suits my needs. I'm sure Reaper fits the bill for those on this forum but I think I'll be moving on. I do appreciate your honesty and experience effitall. You stepped up and got right to the heart of what I was asking. Good luck on your future endeavours.

vicenzajay · 07-19-2013, 08:33 PM

Tons of hardware with Reaper...but it's at mix time. I send stems outboard for all major groups through both eq and compression - and then through a Speck X-Sum summing mixer before passing the mix through the Clariphonic EQ (Kush audio) and finally the buss compressor/eq that RJR studios built for me. This final stereo mix is then passed both to the studio monitors and then DAW. When I commit to a mix, I bounce the resultant WAV in super high quality (realtime) to the DAW and then work with that WAV for final cutting/mastering/etc.

I love hardware outboard. It's worth the "hassle" - and simply sounds amazing...

I also love UAD plugs - so for the DAW individual tracks, I tend to use UAD processing....as well as on the final bounced audio file processing. It's truly a hybrid solution, but I'm very, very happy with my setup.

Hope that helps...

Kennneth · 07-20-2013, 12:12 AM

The best Daws that can handle both vstplugins and hardwares at the same time should be cubase and reaper. I mixed with nebula plugins and external hardwares on reaper which performed really great!

raymour · 07-20-2013, 06:12 AM

Hey vicenzajay, Yes I see that you have a Lynx as well as the Speck X Sum, so dumping everything out in one shot like during a final mixdown is really not an issue for any DAW and as far as an analog 2 buss situation, well thats obvious. So I assume you're the Punkin Head guy? If so, thanks for the input but even your situation doesn't answer my question. Dustin is a super talented guy. I'm so happy that his Compressor's are getting major love I wish he would start work on another EQ besides the Bax! Anyone else with some examples?

vicenzajay · 07-21-2013, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymour

Hey vicenzajay, Yes I see that you have a Lynx as well as the Speck X Sum, so dumping everything out in one shot like during a final mixdown is really not an issue for any DAW and as far as an analog 2 buss situation, well thats obvious. So I assume you're the Punkin Head guy? If so, thanks for the input but even your situation doesn't answer my question. Dustin is a super talented guy. I'm so happy that his Compressor's are getting major love I wish he would start work on another EQ besides the Bax! Anyone else with some examples?

Yeah - I know my situation really isn't what you're talking about - however, at some point you have to send the hardware feeds outboard no matter what the application. That sounds obvious, but what are you using as your "virtual patchbay"? Obviously a nudge or two on latency for each channel using outboard would be necessary, but once you calculated the ms necessary for each "outboard" piece of gear, you would have those values set and could even setup templates to do what you needed quickly I would think. Really a one-time investment in latency/time measurement and you're set.

As far as Dustin's stuff is concerned - concur....would like to see him branch out on EQ's as well as preamps. I have both the buss compressor and an awesome LA-4 drum stereo compressor as well. They do the trick nicely and sound fantastic. He also did a modular monitor switching setup for me as well...I have yet to connect the third set of monitors to the switching box, but I should get there in a month or two. Seems like there's always something to do (which is a good thing).

Not the topic of this thread, but hybrid mixing has been THE bomb for me and my studio. Not looking back...

raymour · 07-22-2013, 04:24 AM

Right on vicenzajay, hybrid is the bomb! Seems Dustin is mostly doing the Compressors full on,he really does great work. As far as lining up the tracks as they come back to the DAW from the trip out to the out board, I'm going to have to try it and see. My 2 buss situation is fine since I have been going out on my current setup thru 2 API 550a for cuts (not ideal but will be upgrading to the hammer or 2a3a soon), RJR Comp, A Bax EQ for some bump and then thru a Manley ELOP for makeup gain and a little beef. I come back in and print 24/48 stereo tracks for Mastering. Aside from the Hammer or Retro 2a3a, I just need to settle on my DAW. I'm going to try this Reaper and put it through some stuff and see. I have read elsewhere that for whatever reason, Reaper had problems in this area. I will report back and let you know. Thanks to you vicezajay and effitall for your input, it was most helpful.

tgowdy · 09-20-2014, 10:29 PM

i mix heavily with REAINSERT. I find that once you figure out what the latency time is ( which is buffer and sample rate specific ) you are good to go. I use one 16 channel Lynx ADDA with the USB card, i7 PC. I do one level of nested inserts which happens when I slap on EQ÷Comp combo on the bus. I have tried the individual drum mics nested into each other and its pretty good too - not like a console but pretty close.

Otherwise the odd glitchy meltdown sound in playback when you are trying to do a million things at once have to admit ( probably seeing USB limits). Regarding latency I think its A-OK as I routinely double check prints of inserts and it seems consistent to my original calculations ( withing 1-4 samples). Hey - it beats Pro Tools for sure. Bussing is so easy with Reaps, love it.. ( just wish it had better import session data feature)

Important thing is to do the calculation first i.e. recordings tones in and out and look at your time difference, then when you find it enter x as your REAINSERT default delay compensation.

SamuelC · 09-20-2014, 11:16 PM

No offence to the Reaper devs on this but...

Cubase, Nuendo, Studio one ( main Daw for me), Cakewalk Sonar, Samplitude
all have figured it out with no issues for external hardware fx ( aka Reainsert)

When I first ran Studio One that is what I tried first, the external hardware fx worked 100% with no issues. Studio One takes care of everything, including PDC.

Hardware FX sends ( works with no issues in Studio One)
ASIO direct monitoring ( can not believe it's still not supported in Reaper in 2014!!!)

Biggest letdowns of Reaper for me.

kid bliss · 03-15-2018, 08:35 PM

hi there

could somebody help explain step by step what would be the best way to put a outboard compressor on the master channel in reaper.

i've been really fighting with this for a while, basically do to my lack of knowledge and terminology used on threads.

correct me if i'm wrong, i assign my master channel (in route) to the outputs of my audio interface, those outputs go to the compressor (stereo) and back in my audio interface.
then i make a new channel in reaper and tell that channel to receive the compressed audio?

how do i make it so that i only hear the new compressed audio in reaper and trough my monitors?

i'm using a fireface ufxII with totalmix which is great but only if you know your way around.

any help would be mucho much appreciated!

kid bliss · 03-16-2018, 12:23 PM

anybody nobody somebody?

domzy · 03-16-2018, 04:11 PM

you have a couple of options - the set up you have suggested will almost work, but you'd need to avoid a feedback loop so either -
i) do what you've said but disable master send on the track receiving your compressor input and add a new hardware output, which should be routed to your monitors (ie not route the master track to your monitors, just to the compressor) - or -
ii) use reainsert -open an instance of reainsert on your master track - select a pair of outputs in the hardware sends boxes - these must not be the same as your master outs - route these outs to the ins of your compressor - the outs of your compressor should be plugged back into your interface and these inputs should be the ones you select for hardware returns in reainsert.

kid bliss · 03-18-2018, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domzy

you have a couple of options - the set up you have suggested will almost work, but you'd need to avoid a feedback loop so either -
i) do what you've said but disable master send on the track receiving your compressor input and add a new hardware output, which should be routed to your monitors (ie not route the master track to your monitors, just to the compressor) - or -
ii) use reainsert -open an instance of reainsert on your master track - select a pair of outputs in the hardware sends boxes - these must not be the same as your master outs - route these outs to the ins of your compressor - the outs of your compressor should be plugged back into your interface and these inputs should be the ones you select for hardware returns in reainsert.

thanks for your help!

i'm going to try both options and see what works best for me and how to record the compressed audio coming in.