Old 12-02-2018, 10:38 AM   #1
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default (windows) USB-hubs, power, loss of connection, etc

how many midi controllers should i expect to be able to run off 1 usb port with an unpowered 4x usb hub?

what sort of problems might one experience if the devices are drawing too much power?

why might moving this hub from one of my PC's usb ports to another mess up different midi software's associations?
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:43 AM   #2
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,041
Default

If they exceed the available current, the devices will mysteriously start dropping, reconnecting. If they exceed bandwidth likely just dropping packets or latency. Spec is 127, reality is n-1.
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:50 AM   #3
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
If they exceed the available current, the devices will mysteriously start dropping, reconnecting. If they exceed bandwidth likely just dropping packets or latency. Spec is 127, reality is n-1.
thanks, just the guy i was hoping to hear from

i have been having the damndest time with my 7 devices, 5 of which are midi controllers. on boot, bidule doesn't see them properly - or it sees one but not others, etc. re-connecting one device might disconnect another on another hub, and other ghostly problems.

right now i'm testing to see whether part of the issue is that i run Bidule on windows startup -- maybe bidule is opening before windows is ready and seeing all of the devices?
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:58 AM   #4
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
thanks, just the guy i was hoping to hear from

i have been having the damndest time with my 7 devices, 5 of which are midi controllers. on boot, bidule doesn't see them properly - or it sees one but not others, etc. re-connecting one device might disconnect another on another hub, and other ghostly problems.

right now i'm testing to see whether part of the issue is that i run Bidule on windows startup -- maybe bidule is opening before windows is ready and seeing all of the devices?
can't reply, think well right now, in car headed to rehearsal - will check in when I get home in a few hours.
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 04:33 PM   #5
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
right now i'm testing to see whether part of the issue is that i run Bidule on windows startup -- maybe bidule is opening before windows is ready and seeing all of the devices?
Plausible... Maybe? But if they seem to be randomly disconnecting like that it sort of sounds like pulling too much current. I had this exact issue the other day - I wanted to pull in footage from my GoPro but other devices were already pulling most of the power on my 'powered' USB hub - Even though all I wanted to do was transfer files, the GoPro wants to start charging the battery. So as soon as I plug it in, several devices, including the GoPro start dropping, connecting, dropping, connecting, dropping connecting.

If you've had the machine a long time maybe there is value in cleaning up old registry entries since those can reach critical mass over a long period of time but not sure that is it. I do NOT know if this is a safe/recommended tool, I just did a quick search so either confirm it is OK, find one that is, or do it manually if you feel the need that it's related.

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/devic...p-tool-windows

Any chance these all converge to the same USB internal buss? Sometimes it's just a matter of getting some on one and others on the other if the MOBO contains it.
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 08:43 AM   #6
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default

thanks for the recommendation regarding old device cleanup. that program is a gem. we ought to create a list/thread for such windows programs.

bughunt continues. i pared down to just the komplete audio 6, the launchpad pro, and the teensy. i'm worrying that the teensy is the issue [scratch that for reasons describe below].

first of all, opinion incoming, goddamn microUSB is such a shitty connector for anything other than cell phones. the lightest touch and the thing gets disconnected. when the teensy gets disconnected/connected, the launchpad goes offline. this happens even if the 2 devices are on different usb hubs! it likewise happens with other USB midi controllers, such as the dj controller i use -- launchpad is suddenly booted offline and must be powered off/on again.

as mentioned, i have 3 usb ports on my laptop...any tip to know which is assigned to which internal buss? i just tried moving things around -- i think i remembered once learning that the port i use for my soundcard is its own buss -- but the same issue occurs where the launchpad is disabled by plugging/unplugging another midi device.

NOTE that mice and other usb peripherals don't do this.

next up - using the power brick that came with the Launchpad in addition to powering it via usb. the LEDs are brighter that way, anyway.

gonna post this now and come back to it when i have more info...thanks for reading.
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 08:45 AM   #7
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default

whole thing makes me wish that there was some sort of raspberry pi usb midi aggregate device into which i could plug all usb midi controllers and subsequently send midi over ethernet to the DAW.
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 08:58 AM   #8
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post

next up - using the power brick that came with the Launchpad in addition to powering it via usb. the LEDs are brighter that way, anyway.

gonna post this now and come back to it when i have more info...thanks for reading.
Let us know how that goes. There is way to find out if those ports are on an separate controllers but being a laptop not sure if there is more than one - that's just a guess though.

There is a USB tool in the Windows Debugging tools, it will run standalone but you have to install the debug tools to get to it...

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...bugger/usbview



Additionally Wireshark allows sniffing USB communication, maybe helpful, maybe not - I haven't tried it yet...

__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 02:01 PM   #9
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default

power supply didn't fix matters.

and yeah, i guess all devices are all on the same hub.

i've got these 3 entries in usbdview:

Intel(R) 7 Series/C216 Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller - 1E26
Intel(R) 7 Series/C216 Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller - 1E2D
USB xHCI Compliant Host Controller

the last of these is the one on which all of my devices live.
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 02:45 PM   #10
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default

alright, might be onto something finally. hopefully this pops up in someone's future google search.

so, the Novation Launchpad Pro installs as 3 io devices in windows -- "Launchpad Pro," "MIDI IN 2 (Launchpad Pro)" and "MIDI IN 3 (Launchpad Pro)"

i don't remember why this is the case, or why i ultimately went with "MIDI IN 2 (Launchpad Pro)" as my device in Bidule. i think the reason was because i was going to use the main input in Ableton. that didn't end up happening.

changing the ios in Bidule to the standard Launchpad Pro device allows me to plug/unplug other midi devices without offlining the Launchpad.
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 03:02 PM   #11
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,661
Default

Just a tiny footnote to this thread. I used to have problems running 2 external USB hard drives, a USB mouse, my RME Babyface & ausb MUSIC KEYBOARD ON MY LAPTOP WHICH ONLY HAS 2 usb PORTS. sWITCHED TO A POWERED VERSION OF MY usb HUB AND ALL THE ISSUES WENT AWAY.

Well apart from the bloody capslock key gettin gin the way!
__________________
Brexit Schmexit. Lets have a violent revolution instead. Bagsy the first go with a nuke! (Here, Moggy Moggy...)
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 03:22 PM   #12
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Putina, Kentucky
Posts: 1,874
Default

haha yeah that reads like a real rollarcoaster.

ultimately this doesn't seem to have been a power issue, but between my powered usb 3.0 hub and the dedicated wall wart for the launchpad, "i have the power"

sometimes i miss the days of plain old midi ios. the cable ends look cooler
__________________
° striving for a loop-based, controller-centric midi recording/editing workflow.
° desiring to control all quantise parameters from control surface.
° using REAPER to make modern sample-based beat music
mccrabney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 06:22 PM   #13
Philbo King
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,409
Default

I bought a 9 port high powered hub (3 amps per port) for exactly this reason. Solved all my problems too.

Without one, the total of ALL usb devices that can be used at once tops out at 0.5 amps.
__________________
Tangent Studio - Philbo King
www.soundclick.com/philboking - stream music
www.facebook.com/philboking - gigs and news
Philbo King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 03:42 AM   #14
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
I bought a 9 port high powered hub (3 amps per port) for exactly this reason. Solved all my problems too.

Without one, the total of ALL usb devices that can be used at once tops out at 0.5 amps.

Care to share make and model with us? Thinking about adding one to my desktop too.
__________________
Brexit Schmexit. Lets have a violent revolution instead. Bagsy the first go with a nuke! (Here, Moggy Moggy...)
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.