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Old 04-12-2022, 06:21 PM   #41
studer58
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The "vertical" approach is to have the takes lined up vertically so they all start at the beginning of the timeline, which makes it easier to find the same passage across alternative takes: you just look down instead of hunting to the right and left across horizontal takes that can stretch on for hours (but are separated by markers for easy navigation). The vertical takes obviously won't line up perfectly due to differences in tempo across takes, but this comes a little closer, at least in terms of visual alignment, to the comping workflow typically used when music is recorded to a click track.
That makes a lot of sense, and explains why hiding the child tracks (of a multitrack project) will be vital to keeping it visually manageable. What Reaper won’t do (and Pyramix apparently can) is to line up the take beginning’s automatically….I don’t know if this is done via audio or visual comparison AI means ? I hardly think that’s a fatal flaw however….and can easily imagine a variety of scenarios where either the vertical or horizontal approach might be used differentially….so it’s great to have the choice. Watching BethHarmon run through typical workflows and setups will tie it up very effectively, and open the door for users to suggest alternatives or additions
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Old 04-12-2022, 06:36 PM   #42
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What Reaper won’t do (and Pyramix apparently can) is to line up the take beginning’s automatically….I don’t know if this is done via audio or visual comparison AI means ?
It is easy enough, however, to drag the starting points of each of your horizontal takes to the beginning the timeline to switch to a vertical approach; this is described in BethHarmon's instruction guide.

But you're right, as far as I know there's no magical way for Reaper to automatically find the same passage in multiple takes. It probably wouldn't be hard to program: Reaper already allows you to jump from transient to transient, and I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to write code that analyzes a selection and looks for similar selections across a timeline either horizontally or vertically. But as you spend time with a take you get to know the waveform and it becomes pretty easy to identify the same passage across takes just by looking.
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Old 04-12-2022, 10:55 PM   #43
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Does this implementation of Reaper allow for vertical take distribution during the recording process of multiple takes (assuming Reaper is the recording DAW, as well as the editor) ?

A standalone recorder (like the Sound Devices MixPre series) would of course only allow for horizontal linear capture of sequential takes, which could then be arrayed horizontally or vertically, as preferred, in Reaper for editing
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Old 04-13-2022, 12:35 AM   #44
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Does this implementation of Reaper allow for vertical take distribution during the recording process of multiple takes (assuming Reaper is the recording DAW, as well as the editor) ?

A standalone recorder (like the Sound Devices MixPre series) would of course only allow for horizontal linear capture of sequential takes, which could then be arrayed horizontally or vertically, as preferred, in Reaper for editing
Yes, you can record takes vertically:
  1. Set up your first folder set
  2. run BethHarmon_Create source groups and link pan&vol
  3. Run BethHarmon_auto_solo
  4. Place cursor on a folder and run Classical Take Record (num+.)

The num+. shortcut should be used to start and stop the recording but if you forget it doesn't really matter. It's a really quick way of operating. Once a take is recorded simply press on the next track panel down and record again.

As people test all this, I have a feeling it would be useful to combine steps 2 and 3 into the one script.
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Old 04-13-2022, 12:39 AM   #45
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What Reaper won’t do (and Pyramix apparently can) is to line up the take beginning’s automatically….I don’t know if this is done via audio or visual comparison AI means ?
That's Sequoia, not Pyramix. And while I enjoyed using the Musyc feature for a little while, I think a much better approach would be to record vertically from the start and place subsequent takes directly underneath each other (the script, well REAPER, defaults to moving the play cursor back to the start of the recording so lining up is super easy).

Last edited by chmaha; 04-13-2022 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 04-13-2022, 03:44 AM   #46
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A standalone recorder (like the Sound Devices MixPre series) would of course only allow for horizontal linear capture of sequential takes, which could then be arrayed horizontally or vertically, as preferred, in Reaper for editing
The recorded .wav files can be arrayed however you like in Reaper, but actually the MixPre-series recorders do allow you to do vertical takes, if you have the Musician plugin. Just press the stop button twice to go to the beginning of the timeline, and record. All your takes will start at the beginning of the timeline and you use the "project history" to navigate between takes. It works, but I find it much simpler to use a horizontal timeline with takes separated by markers: it's faster to navigate between markers on the MixPre than to scroll through the project history.

The main reason I use the Musician plugin is that if you add markers to your files (and optionally give your markers descriptive names), those markers and their names will be embedded into the .wav file metadata and will appear in Reaper when you import them, as long as you use the "wav all ISOs" command in the render menu on the MixPre-series recorder. They appear as item markers in Reaper, but there's an action to convert all item markers to project markers if you prefer.

I love this feature! Not many other DAWs have it; it also works in some editors such as Audacity and Acon Acoustica. I often drop markers to indicate trouble spots (or particularly well-played passages) while recording, and add names to them afterward either on the MixPre or in Reaper.

The Musician plugin records only iso .wav files, no polywavs; for multitrack recordings polywavs are more convenient to deal with as self-contained units, but you still have to split them out; the Musician plugin eliminates that step but you have to use the timestamps in the file names to organize your takes. Choose your poison.

Last edited by bjohn; 04-13-2022 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 04-13-2022, 06:30 AM   #47
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I'm just starting to write in the user guide about freely available "mastering-grade" (sorry for marketing speak) plugins for classical audio use with REAPER.

So far, I've mentioned the ReaPlugs (ReaLimit, in particular, is a transparent beauty) and then:

ReEQ (definite Fabfilter Pro-Q replacement)
x42-compressor
x42-limiter (up there with ReaLimit)
RCInflator (for that magic je-ne-sais-quoi)

Restoration:
Bertom Denoiser (can't believe how amazing this is!)
DeBess (airwindows) -- the world's best de-esser?
(I almost never use de-essers for classical but it saved a virtual choir performance last year)

Metering: the built-in JS Loudness Meter Peak/RMS/LUFS

Reverbs:
A thorny topic because cross-platform are few and far between and quality isn't necessarily easy to come by. I've mentioned Dragonfly (for subtle tail enhancing), ReaVerb+Bricasti samples (I find them better than Seventh Heaven for some reason) and, perhaps surprisingly, Tukan Studio's Lexikan (the original one). It actually sounds beautiful to my ears but I'd love a second opinion.

And then...I'm struggling a bit to come up with other free cross-platform options that I know are of excellent quality. Ideas? For example, are they any options that you've used on your own classical (or similar) releases that you think are high quality?

Last edited by chmaha; 04-13-2022 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 04-13-2022, 07:58 AM   #48
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And then...I'm struggling a bit to come up with other free cross-platform options that I know are of excellent quality. Ideas?
I know you said plugins, but hardware is certainly cross-platform. ;-) When I go back to Linux I'm going to look into hardware for reverb and a mastering compressor; I think plugins can handle the rest.
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Old 04-13-2022, 08:39 AM   #49
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I know you said plugins, but hardware is certainly cross-platform. ;-) When I go back to Linux I'm going to look into hardware for reverb and a mastering compressor; I think plugins can handle the rest.
Ah, good call. TBH, compression via plugin in Linux is absolutely fine for me. I'm only ever using wet 1.25:1 (-30dB threshold) or parallel compression and I can't complain about the quality of what I've used. I remembered fircomp (v1) and Squeezer are also both free, cross-platform and of excellent quality too.

As for hardware reverb, for me it's an M7 or nothing
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Old 04-13-2022, 08:55 AM   #50
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TBH, compression via plugin in Linux is absolutely fine for me.
I was thinking more about a mastering compressor, on the master bus. I don't actually master my own tracks but I am guilty of using a mastering compressor plugin (Unisum in my case) before sending my files to the mastering engineer just to get the sound a bit closer to what I want.

There's an informative discussion here: https://gearspace.com/board/remote-p...ompressor.html

The classical recording engineer in the Netherlands who goes by the name "Earcatcher" contributed to that thread; he doesn't use any plugins at all and relies totally on outboard gear; his recordings sound fabulous but everything he uses is top shelf and very carefully chosen. I can't justify the expense for my projects, but I could see myself using at least a hardware reverb someday, either Bricasti or Lexicon.
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Old 04-13-2022, 09:35 AM   #51
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I was thinking more about a mastering compressor, on the master bus. I don't actually master my own tracks but I am guilty of using a mastering compressor plugin (Unisum in my case) before sending my files to the mastering engineer just to get the sound a bit closer to what I want.
Is this for classical? Perhaps the closest I've come is using am|munition in Sequoia...
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Old 04-13-2022, 09:40 AM   #52
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Is this for classical? Perhaps the closest I've come is using am|munition in Sequoia...
Yep, for classical. From Earcatcher: "I keep a small herd of compressors, so I can always find one that fits my needs best, also in classical music mixes. Sometimes no compression is called for, but often a little of it can just lift the entire experience of listening to something that is more pleasing to the ear. Rough dynamic edges can be ironed out, which helps with the sense of musical control that you expect from professional players. What works in pop also works in classical/acoustic, although it should be applied with a lot more care in the latter category. One of the most affordable compressors with a lot of versatility for classical is the Elysia Xpressor. Of course a good Vari-Mu, such as the Knif, is even more polished and subtle sounding, but it's not cheap. In many of my mixes it ends up being used though, as well as the RND MBP. For certain problem cases I also have Drawmer 1973 (often highly appreciated by musicians when I use it; very affordable as well) and TK BC2-ME. Outboard compressors sound totally different than their ITB counterparts, and I prefer them."
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Old 04-13-2022, 09:51 AM   #53
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Sometimes no compression is called for, but often a little of it can just lift the entire experience of listening to something that is more pleasing to the ear. Rough dynamic edges can be ironed out, which helps with the sense of musical control that you expect from professional players.
Certainly that's my reasoning for using the compression settings I do. Not obvious compression...it just sounds like the dynamics are produced by professional players. And, of course, with the raising of the noise floor there's a sense of warmth. Coupled with Sonnox/RCInflator, I seem to get something that sounds "analog" even if it isn't. I also can't afford hardware

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Old 04-13-2022, 05:30 PM   #54
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I just downloaded this and was really excited to try it out. I have a feeling something might be wonky, but I can't say if it's on my end or not. I followed the setup instructions and did a backup of my keycap, but the shortcuts don't seem to be performing their jobs correctly.

For the prepare takes (T) shortcut, it only applies the grouping and colour to the parent track, and leaves everything else inside the folder unchanged.

Also, when I use the script to create source groups, I get the following for each track in my project:
"Xenakios - Error
Please select exactly one item."

and then the folder disappears, all the tracks go from child tracks to regular tracks, with volume and panning controls "linked" but each on their own group.

I had a look in the scripts and they seem to be pointing towards some custom actions. I suspect this is the cause of the problem, but don't now how to fix it.
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Old 04-13-2022, 08:15 PM   #55
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Since both vertical and horizontal arrays of takes is possible, maybe a future development could allow the imported (condensed version) music score to be displayed along either the top or bottom of the active screen, in sync with the takes…although the height could prove problematic unless made shrinkable (in child/parent/folder fashion) ?

However, this could also contribute to screen visual congestion, so perhaps it’s not such a great idea….unless the score’s visibility can be toggled by a keystroke, so it’s only visible when necessary?

Alternatively, maybe this is where a second LCD monitor screen might be used, solely for the score, with a vertical cursor line tracking the take’s playing….or the score scrolling across in parallel with the take, or remaining in place until a page turn ? This second screen could be mounted above, below or to the side of your existing screen….whatever makes sense ergonomically

Maybe I’m overthinking this, and a printed score or iPad/tablet version is fine, on the table next to the keyboard….as is done now ?

Last edited by studer58; 04-13-2022 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 04-14-2022, 01:25 AM   #56
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Since both vertical and horizontal arrays of takes is possible, maybe a future development could allow the imported (condensed version) music score to be displayed along either the top or bottom of the active screen, in sync with the takes…although the height could prove problematic unless made shrinkable (in child/parent/folder fashion) ?

However, this could also contribute to screen visual congestion, so perhaps it’s not such a great idea….unless the score’s visibility can be toggled by a keystroke, so it’s only visible when necessary?

Alternatively, maybe this is where a second LCD monitor screen might be used, solely for the score, with a vertical cursor line tracking the take’s playing….or the score scrolling across in parallel with the take, or remaining in place until a page turn ? This second screen could be mounted above, below or to the side of your existing screen….whatever makes sense ergonomically

Maybe I’m overthinking this, and a printed score or iPad/tablet version is fine, on the table next to the keyboard….as is done now ?
That sounds out of my wheelhouse, if I'm being totally honest. Are you talking about a PDF score or the score produced by REAPER? The issues here are that classical performances don't follow a strict metronome so how would the software know exactly where it was in the score? I love using a physical score while recording/editing as it has often been marked up by the conductor with exactly where they want the edit points...

See https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...easier-editing and https://lockwoodars.com/resources/Do...llustrated.pdf. I really like the T and wavy T approach where the vertical stem shows the edit point and a wavy top gives some "latitude" as Frank says. Numbers are written either side to show exit and entry takes.

Last edited by chmaha; 04-14-2022 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 04-14-2022, 02:57 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Etc.etera View Post
I just downloaded this and was really excited to try it out. I have a feeling something might be wonky, but I can't say if it's on my end or not. I followed the setup instructions and did a backup of my keycap, but the shortcuts don't seem to be performing their jobs correctly.

For the prepare takes (T) shortcut, it only applies the grouping and colour to the parent track, and leaves everything else inside the folder unchanged.

Also, when I use the script to create source groups, I get the following for each track in my project:
"Xenakios - Error
Please select exactly one item."

and then the folder disappears, all the tracks go from child tracks to regular tracks, with volume and panning controls "linked" but each on their own group.

I had a look in the scripts and they seem to be pointing towards some custom actions. I suspect this is the cause of the problem, but don't now how to fix it.
So I just started with a fresh REAPER install, did the bare minimum of installing SWS and ReaPack then importing my repo into ReaPack. The two scripts you mentioned work perfectly. There are no "custom actions" left and the Lua scripts only point to internal REAPER or SWS commands (in addition to manual API functions / conditionals I added).

I'm more than happy to help you dig deeper to get them working though. So first question...do you have SWS+ReaPack+my latest v1.1 scripts from ReaPack installed? Make sure you create folders correctly by either dragging the children up into the folder OR make sure the final child is selected as the last track in the folder. Note also that the "create source groups" super-collapses all the folders so you can see everything more easily (best to use my classical template or set super-collapsed to 0 in the rtconfig.txt yourself). To check the children, use the D and E shortcuts.

Last edited by chmaha; 04-14-2022 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 04-14-2022, 09:03 AM   #58
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OK, I lied. I had a little bit of time so I added a section about marking edits on physical scores to the user guide and then changed the classical template to have "SWS/AW: Toggle auto group newly recorded items" as the startup action, then added the auto_solo and "razor edit extend to rest of folder" script to the "VERTICAL_Create source groups" script whose name has been shortened given it now does quite a lot. Basically all the vertical prep stuff is called from one script given that is the point when the engineer makes the decision to use vertical workflows rather than regular horizontal. Sync ReaPack for the latest...

Let me know how you go on. I think this is getting really close to my ideal setup.

Last edited by chmaha; 04-16-2022 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 04-16-2022, 02:43 AM   #59
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Tada!

"Prepare Takes" scripts for both horizontal and vertical take management are now single-click/press affairs. Once you've recorded or dragged your takes into REAPER, simply run the appropriate script for your chosen horizontal or vertical workflow to auto-group / auto-color your takes.

I've settled on final names for scripts too at this point. You will probably have to re-add a couple of keyboard shortcuts given this fact but it's worth it, I promise.

Here's a quick summary of what's available:
  • Scripts for dedicated source-destination markers and S-D edits
  • Classical Crossfade shortcut
  • Crossfade Editor View for precise two-lane editing
  • Two single-press "Prepare Takes" scripts (NEW!)
  • Create source groups (for vertical take workflow) script
  • Whole Project View script
  • A classical template with appropriate project settings and "group items recorded together" startup action
  • Customized auto_solo script (baked into the "Create source groups") for vertical workflows
  • Razor edit (extend to all children) script for vertical workflows
  • A "Classical Take Record" toggle script for quickly recording when using vertical takes

I'm hoping videos will start to be produced next week. I'm thinking a series of short 3-minute-ish segments on each topic.

Last edited by chmaha; 04-16-2022 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 04-16-2022, 03:10 AM   #60
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I'm hoping videos will start to be produced next week. I'm thinking a series of short 3-minute-ish segments on each topic.
Sounds wonderful, thanks again for all your work on this and the time-saving improvements!

Reaper is the only option available for people who want to do classical-style editing on platforms other than Windows, and you have done a lot to make it a more viable and efficient alternative.
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Old 04-16-2022, 05:12 AM   #61
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BethHarmon...with respect to RCInflator(Sonnox)...do you have a preferred % of effect, curve...and do you tend to employ clipping (for classical/chamber music) ? I find it's quite transparent, but easy to go too far with effect % ? Any tips on balancing the input and output levels...for attaining unnoticeable control over levels, while retaining usable dtnamics ?

Last edited by studer58; 04-16-2022 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 04-16-2022, 05:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by BethHarmon View Post
Here's a quick summary of what's available:
  • Scripts for dedicated source-destination markers and S-D edits
  • Classical Crossfade shortcut
  • Crossfade Editor View for precise two-lane editing
  • Two single-press "Prepare Takes" scripts (NEW!)
  • Create source groups (for vertical take workflow) script
  • Whole Project View script
  • A classical template with appropriate project settings and "group items recorded together" startup action
  • Customized auto_solo script (baked into the "Create source groups") for vertical workflows
  • Razor edit (extend to all children) script for vertical workflows
  • A "Classical Take Record" toggle script for quickly recording when using vertical takes
To update these quickly...what's the best possible method...synchronize Reapack ? Any trashes/deletions necessary ?
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:04 AM   #63
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To update these quickly...what's the best possible method...synchronize Reapack ? Any trashes/deletions necessary ?
Just sync, I hope. That's what I did on my own machine at least.
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:06 AM   #64
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BethHarmon...with respect to RCInflator(Sonnox)...do you have a preferred % of effect, curve...and do you tend to employ clipping (for classical/chamber music) ? I find it's quite transparent, but easy to go too far with effect % ? Any tips on balancing the input and output levels...for attaining unnoticeable control over levels, while retaining usable dtnamics ?
For classical I generally start with effect at 25% or so and adjust to taste. Curve stays at the default almost always...No clipping. For me it acts more like parallel compression with some added mojo but, in reality, it is a simple waveshaper.
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Old 04-18-2022, 03:49 PM   #65
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In running through the various workflows in preparation for recording videos I wasn't entirely happy so I took the time to change things for the better (you know me by now!).

So, v1.4 scripts change the following:

I removed all the existing auto_solo functionality and instead introduced a custom audition script that along with the Classical Take Record script both filter the tracks of the mixer to only show those active. It's super cool to see the mixer channels switching out based on what's coming out of your speakers!

(There were various reasons why the previous way of doing things was problematic but I won't bore you with them here. It was definitely worth it just to get the new mixer filtering)

So basically, the way to listen when doing vertical work is to always use the BethHarmon_Audition (A) shortcut which solos the folder (or track) at the point your mouse is hovering (you'll need to assign that again or download the new keymap).
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Old 04-27-2022, 04:01 AM   #66
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Not an audio update per se but the new mute overlay color tweak in "Show theme tweak/configuration window" action works really nicely for vertical classical editing when you would be shuttling between track folders to find best takes for source-destination or razor editing.

I personally have set the alpha to 0.00 to mimic Pyramix and Sequoia (at least what I remember to be the case as I no longer have them installed). Open the "Show theme tweak/configuration window" action and search for 'mute'. Here's a screenshot of the bit to change:


Last edited by chmaha; 04-27-2022 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 04-27-2022, 06:56 AM   #67
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Here's a screenshot of the bit to change:

The image is hidden, because you didn't link to image file. Here is the proper link: https://i2.paste.pics/GSIBD.png
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Old 04-27-2022, 07:36 AM   #68
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The image is hidden, because you didn't link to image file. Here is the proper link: https://i2.paste.pics/GSIBD.png
Thanks, fixed. Now I see my error. I suspect I've been doing this in other posts too And...I've had "show images" off in my forum settings for some strange reason.

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Old 04-27-2022, 08:15 AM   #69
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Just wanted to say thanks for these!
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Best Regards, Ernie "lunker" Lundqvist
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Old 04-28-2022, 03:22 PM   #70
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A first attempt at a classical editing tools icon set (set as toolbar 1):



From left to right:
Whole project view (`)
Create Source Groups (F8)
Classical Take Record (Numpad .)
Duplicate Folder, no items (\)
Prepare Takes-Horizontal (T)
Prepare Takes-Vertical (Y)
Set Destination IN marker (Ctrl+Home)
Set Destination OUT marker (Ctrl+End)
Set Source IN marker (Shift+Home)
Set Source OUT marker (Shift+End)
Delete all S-D markers (Ctrl+Delete)
S-D Edit-Horizontal (Insert)
S-D Edit-Vertical (Backspace)
Fade Editor (F)

EDIT (7th May 2022): Note that I have completely overhauled this custom classical toolbar with more subtle colors with minty highlights that pair well with the stock theme:



The latest and greatest is available from my Github repository...

Last edited by chmaha; 05-07-2022 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-28-2022, 03:53 PM   #71
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So cool! Really well done PDF and setup. I know I'll need this stuff some day (like when they tell me I need to record my movie score live in the theater then put out an official soundtrack from the live concert...)

Thanks Beth! Good job on that match with the Russian grandmaster btw. Glad you kicked the pills
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Old 04-29-2022, 02:16 AM   #72
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Quote:
I do plan on creating some videos to demonstrate things (if a picture's worth a thousand words, what's a video?) but that might take a little while.
Looking forward to your videos. I'm a novice about this, but I want to learn.

Thanks for your absolutely awesome work.
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Old 04-29-2022, 02:55 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Tobbe View Post
Looking forward to your videos. I'm a novice about this, but I want to learn.

Thanks for your absolutely awesome work.
I'm on it! I downloaded OBS Studio and made a first pass at recording some tutorial videos. I'm discovering that it is better if I create some written scripts so I don't veer off course! I think 6 or 7 videos should cover everything from setting up REAPER, creating folders and source groups, recording, preparing and auditioning takes, S-D editing, fade editor and razor editing. Any extra to do with mastering, DDP etc can come later.
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Old 05-01-2022, 08:50 AM   #74
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Thanks for being patient. Here's the first tutorial video:



I should have several more up by the end of the day. Over the next few days, a complete set of 7 videos covering all my scripts will be available.

As a side note, the video was completely edited in REAPER.

EDIT: Here are a couple more:




Last edited by chmaha; 05-01-2022 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 05-01-2022, 11:33 AM   #75
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GREAT Scottish accent, lass! So delightful to hear. Thanks so much for the tutorials
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Old 05-01-2022, 12:41 PM   #76
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GREAT Scottish accent, lass! So delightful to hear. Thanks so much for the tutorials
Why thank you Here's one more for the day:


Last edited by chmaha; 05-01-2022 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 05-02-2022, 03:46 AM   #77
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And the 5th video (showing source-destination editing):

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Old 05-02-2022, 04:26 AM   #78
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Fantastic.Thank you lass
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Old 05-02-2022, 04:58 AM   #79
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Fantastic.Thank you lass
You are welcome. Here's another:



One more to go to complete the first set.

EDIT: Aaaannd, here it is:



EDIT 2: The bug in the TJF script has received a temporary band-aid solution (thanks @BirdBird!). I've been given permission to include it in my metapackage (also thanks!) so watch out for an update.

Last edited by chmaha; 05-03-2022 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 05-03-2022, 02:12 AM   #80
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OK, the BethHarmon_Classical metapackage as been updated to v1.5:
  • Includes the BirdBird bugfixed script that will run in the background when "Create Source Groups" script is run
  • Includes beginning of task to annotate all numerical reaper.Main_OnCommand() lines
  • Various user guide updates to reflect the new script inclusion

It looks like the old TJF Scripts version has been removed from their repo so you can go ahead and delete it at this point. Everything you need to do classical editing in REAPER is now contained within the one metapackage. Enjoy!

There'll be another user guide (and short video) update when the razor area mouse modifiers to ignore ripple mode are introduced.

Last edited by chmaha; 05-03-2022 at 02:24 AM.
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