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Old 03-15-2011, 09:35 AM   #1
Mr Ected
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Default Closed miced drums, snare bleeding through on overheads, tips are welcome!

I'm not sure if this is possible, I imagine if it were then sidechaining would be the answer, unfortunately I'm a newb so I'm not sure how I would do it correctly in this instance... Here's the issue -

I have a closed-mic setup and I'm using two overheads primarily for cymbals, though it's okay if some of the toms come through in this instance. I have my mics setup as spaced-pair (they are parallel with eachother facing down), which is really giving me a great spacial feeling with the cymbals, which I completely dig. However, what I don't want to come through is the snare because I want my snare to be tight and in the center, but the snare bleed in the overheads causes the snare to feel broad, not tight in the center (same thing with kick, but to a lesser degree).

My snare is gated and I like the result so far, so now would I use the snares signal and a compressor, and sidechain so that the volume in the overheads ducks when the snare is hit? Or am I misunderstanding this? I understand the very basics of compression, but I'm still in the experimental stage where I'm not 100% sure what I'm doing...

Thanks for any help!
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:22 AM   #2
dazzathedrummer
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I wouldn't duck the overheads, this will kill your cymbals every time it ducks.

The overheads are really to give you an overall kit sound from an overhead perspective.

I would use EQ to reduce the specific dominant frequencies of the snare in the overheads and or emphasis the frequencies of the cymbals - or use multi-band compression (or both).

Beyond that, I think you would need to close mic the cymbals to achieve the sound that you are looking for.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:48 AM   #3
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Quote:
My snare is gated and I like the result so far, so now would I use the snares signal and a compressor, and sidechain so that the volume in the overheads ducks when the snare is hit? Or am I misunderstanding this?
You may have some luck doing this (it's worth trying at least) but use a very short attack and release on the compressor, so it only ducks the transient, and not the tail of the snare hit. This will mean that the momentary cut in the cymbols will be covered by the snare and hopefully not be noticable.

I usually set my overheads EXACTLY the same distance from the snare and kick as the other overhead. (place one mic, then tape a piece of string to the kick heat right where the beater hits it, and hold the string againsed the capsule of the mic (mark this point on the string), and tape the other end to the center of the snare head, keeping the string tought. You can then place the other mic somewhere on the arc that you can sweep with the mark on your string. This keeps the kick and snare centered in the mix, as well as keeping them in phase. Then the close mics are just to sweeten the sound a little.

If a close miced, isolated sound is what you want out of each drum, then you, as dazza pointed out, are better off close micing everything including the cymbols. You can also record the drums and the cymbols as different takes. But it sounds like you've already done your tracking, so lets talk about what can be done with the tracks you do have.

Try the ducking thing you were thinking about. I would also suggest putting in high pass filter and sweeping it as far up as you can without killing your cymbol sound.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:53 AM   #4
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Good thought, but I suspect ducking is going to muck-up your overhead sound.

You're always going to get some bleed... The main idea is that the snare mic should dominate the snare sound so that you can adjust the volume (and character) of the snare sound by adjusting the snare track.

You should be able to filter-out much of the kick with high-pass filtering.

Experiment with overhead mic position & angle (I assume you're using directional mics ). And, maybe some room/wall acoustic treatment in case the snare sound is bouncing off the walls/ceiling and getting into the overheads that way.

Quote:
I want my snare to be tight and in the center...
Try not to get too hung-up on exact positioning. Try to go for a good overall sound. Unless you're doing 5.1 surround, there is no true "center" anyway! It's just an illusion, and if you move you head a few inches, you can loose that precise illusion.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:09 AM   #5
Mr Ected
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Thanks for the tips everyone.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Schmidty View Post
I usually set my overheads EXACTLY the same distance from the snare and kick as the other overhead. (place one mic, then tape a piece of string to the kick heat right where the beater hits it, and hold the string againsed the capsule of the mic (mark this point on the string), and tape the other end to the center of the snare head, keeping the string tought. You can then place the other mic somewhere on the arc that you can sweep with the mark on your string. This keeps the kick and snare centered in the mix, as well as keeping them in phase. Then the close mics are just to sweeten the sound a little.
It's a constant struggle for me with my mic setup. The problem is my snare/tom mics are pretty darn good (SM57s) and I'm totally happy with the way they sound for my purposes. My kick mic is pretty good (Beta 52) but I'm a poor boy so it's really hard for me to afford these kind of toys so in an act of desparation I bought Audix F15s, mainly so my cymbals would come out more. I think I bought them for $40 on a Musicians Friends stupid deal of the day. The quality of my SM57s far surpass my F15s. Ideally I'd like to use more of my overheads and less of my tom mics because now I actually prefer a more open sound, but when I use my F15s as the primary sound it really lowers overall quality.

In hindsight, I probably should have bought 1 snare mic, 1 kick mic and kickass overheads, instead of spending all my $$$ micking each tom w/a SM57. Oh well, gotta work with what I have, for awhile anyway.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:40 PM   #7
junioreq
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You can duck it, its very common in metal rock actually. But, if its a sparse mix, I don't think I'd try it.

But really, the overheads are the SOUND of your kit. EQ those overheads so they sound as best they can in the full mix, with all other drum mics off. Then start adding the other direct mics to get more low and high end.

~Rob.
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Old 03-16-2011, 07:27 AM   #8
Schmidty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Ected View Post
It's a constant struggle for me with my mic setup. The problem is my snare/tom mics are pretty darn good (SM57s) and I'm totally happy with the way they sound for my purposes. My kick mic is pretty good (Beta 52) but I'm a poor boy so it's really hard for me to afford these kind of toys so in an act of desparation I bought Audix F15s, mainly so my cymbals would come out more. I think I bought them for $40 on a Musicians Friends stupid deal of the day. The quality of my SM57s far surpass my F15s. Ideally I'd like to use more of my overheads and less of my tom mics because now I actually prefer a more open sound, but when I use my F15s as the primary sound it really lowers overall quality.

In hindsight, I probably should have bought 1 snare mic, 1 kick mic and kickass overheads, instead of spending all my $$$ micking each tom w/a SM57. Oh well, gotta work with what I have, for awhile anyway.
Keep an eye out for good deals on Octava MK-012s. I got two on e-bay for about $100 a piece in 2003, and then two more on Craig's List for $75 last year. Between the 4 I was able to find a "matched-ish" pair and eventually bought a match pair of omni capsules. They are very warm mics, so it can sometimes be hard to get that "shimmer" in the cymbols (my room doesn't help that either), but they have a rich full low mid that makes the toms sound great. I just use the close mics to tighten the sounnd a little. I've also used them on snare and toms (and kick from a distance) and they sound great. They are also awsome for acoustic guitar since they get that nice woody tone.
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