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Old 06-11-2019, 03:19 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
But if you want it to look the same on a frequency plot... which is the most important thing apparently!
One reason I scaled back building circuits for people was simply not having time but the other reason was having a conscious. I had a pedal I designed and it had a switch that selected between all odd harmonics or odd+even. I used some germanium diodes in a particular config to achieve this (very common trick really). I actually designed it as boost, because it resulted in just about enough extra gain to use it that way...

The thing I found is no matter how I worded things, end users would latch on to and invent things they heard such as "wow, I can really hear the sweetness of those 2nd order harmonics when the germaniums switch in" - except it was actually switching them out and so on. I realized it's not that hard to sell a whole lot of imaginary mojo.

One point there is users are dying for magical mojo to believe in and the marketing and god knows how many companies just milk that need.
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:20 PM   #162
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that the speed is
I'd agree with that since much of the notoriety of an 1176 is its very short attack times, if the physical clone doesn't do that, it could sound fantastic but 1176 clone it is not.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:28 PM   #163
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OK it was ^2013 so my internal memory clock was off by two years!

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...3&postcount=25

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...6&postcount=29

Original thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=119148


That isn't dissing what you are saying, just trying to stay true to an old thread I remember just in case they are related. At least I still have my forum search chops.
I'm still really interested in this type of stuff...But you are seeing something else? I thought Ken McLaren had explained that in waveshaping theres a certain amount it will go or something? I really dont eunderstand it so I'd like to hear everything in the world about this! I can;t say enough how interested I am in it
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:59 PM   #164
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ummm, electric guitars that are distorted through real pedals and real amps "alias" all the fucking time. ever do a bend on one string whilst holding another steady?

This guy is a wet noodle, overall.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:11 PM   #165
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he tested... one. one that is notorious for oversampling. get a grip ppl
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:12 PM   #166
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I'm still really interested in this type of stuff...But you are seeing something else? I thought Ken McLaren had explained that in waveshaping theres a certain amount it will go or something? I really dont eunderstand it so I'd like to hear everything in the world about this! I can;t say enough how interested I am in it
It was just that I got the same behavior we'd expect but you didn't. I don't think we ever got to the bottom of what you were seeing but for me the SIMs gain increased per added instance.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:52 PM   #167
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I really dont eunderstand it so I'd like to hear everything in the world about this! I can;t say enough how interested I am in it
I agree it's fun to understand more, maybe this will help...

Anything you can send a sine wave through that changes it in anyway is a waveshaper. In analog we do it by pushing tubes until they are unable to continue to reproduce a perfect copy of the signal, or through diodes, or transistors and/or a few others. In digital we do the exact same thing but with math instead aka digital waveshaping.

A byproduct of a misshapen sine wave is ALWAYS harmonics, often an infinite series of harmonics. Those harmonics ARE the distortion you hear, they are the saturation and the sweetness and/or the fizz and nastiness you hear so the harmonics exactly are the distortion. This is irrelevant to what changed the wave shape (analog or digital). All those harmonics going higher and higher in a pattern can be heard as fizz... In analog we also have to "filter out the fizz" using filters and/or tubes etc. Digital and analog differ some in the caveats but both's "fizz" is from the fact the wave shape was changed and added harmonics. Aliasing in digital is a caveat/byproduct of dealing with the same problem in the math realm.

The simplistic point here we can lose ourselves in the scientific of magical mojo details but in all cases we are just causing a wave shape to be misshapen and then dealing with the undesired side effects while trying to keep the desired ones.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:38 PM   #168
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ummm, electric guitars that are distorted through real pedals and real amps "alias" all the fucking time. ever do a bend on one string whilst holding another steady?
Not if they are analog. Aliasing is specifically a digital phenomenon, having to do with signals exceeding nyquist, which does not exist in the analog domain.

What you are hearing might be intermodulation distortion, or something else. Since you mention pitch bending one string while holding another steady, what you are describing might simply be the difference in the tuning varying between them as you bend.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:43 PM   #169
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ummm, electric guitars that are distorted through real pedals and real amps "alias" all the fucking time. ever do a bend on one string whilst holding another steady?

This guy is a wet noodle, overall.
Search this thread. We have already talked about it. What you are talking about is intermodulation distortion, not aliasing. The latter being a digital artifact.

Wet noodle?...
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:45 PM   #170
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One other thing we can do to reduce aliasing with existing plugins is to simply low pass sounds before we saturate/distort/clip them.

Say we have an acoustic guitar that we want to saturate to get that vintage slammed tape sound.

Before we add saturation, lets say our guitar has a lot going on above 10khz.

What I would do is filter above say 8-10khz, probably with a 12db filter, before the saturation plugin.

Then the saturation plugin itself will regenerate a lot of those harmonics above 10k that we just filtered out (while also saturating everything else below it, which is what we are looking for in this case) but not so much high end that it will generate as much aliasing as we would have saturated the full signal with all of that 10khz prior to filtering.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:52 PM   #171
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^That filtering is identical to what we do in analog distortion designs. We can filter going in, inside the feedback loop, and/or coming out of the distortion section. The only difference with digital is we are dealing with any fizz this creates AND the folding back down into the audible range (aliasing). In analog we are only filtering out the inevitable fizz so there is simply one less caveat from the same basic byproduct of distorting a waveform. It's not a disagreement, just removing some of the magic.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:10 PM   #172
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One other thing we can do to reduce aliasing with existing plugins is to simply low pass sounds before we saturate/distort/clip them.

Say we have an acoustic guitar that we want to saturate to get that vintage slammed tape sound.

Before we add saturation, lets say our guitar has a lot going on above 10khz.

What I would do is filter above say 8-10khz, probably with a 12db filter, before the saturation plugin.

Then the saturation plugin itself will regenerate a lot of those harmonics above 10k that we just filtered out (while also saturating everything else below it, which is what we are looking for in this case) but not so much high end that it will generate as much aliasing as we would have saturated the full signal with all of that 10khz prior to filtering.

How well that might work is pretty questionable and source dependent where you don't mind lopping off higher frequencies. And that is best case, only for use with plugins which have a single clipping stage, since we can't reduce aliasing after the fact. In other words, if a plugin has at least two clipping stages, we can't do anything about aliasing for the first stage since we don't have access between stages.
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:10 AM   #173
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Search this thread. We have already talked about it. What you are talking about is intermodulation distortion, not aliasing. The latter being a digital artifact.

Wet noodle?...
Unless I misunderstood, the guy's argument was that aliasing is bad because it introduces inharmonic content, whereas his desk was just giving the harmonic series. That seemed to be what he thought was sounding off about plugins vs. hardware.

He didn't make it clear, as it was amongst a lot of rambling, but that's what I got from it. If that is the case, it is a bogus conclusion, because in real world usage analogue gear will do the same (though often masked by the high noise floor).

You can say that it is an artefact that is not present in an analogue signal chain, but to proclaim it as the key to why digital emulations sound off is a stretch, especially as in most real world applications it will be masked - essentially erasing it (the Waves "analog" switch on many of their plugins introduces a noise floor for this very purpose, just like the intermodulation distortion from a tape machine bias tone is masked by the noise floor in most cases).
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:14 AM   #174
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....not a knuckle dragging, mental midget...as some are appearing here eh

and,if people want me to dissappear--then make them bans-PERMANENT.
Sounds like a great idea!

Anyone else?
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:59 AM   #175
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Not to forget that oversampling, brickwall filtering and processing the effect, then brickwall filtering and downsampling sure isn't free. If you have an analog model, this means evaluating it N-1 more times per sample.

If it's an analog model with the nonlinearities in an implicit system of equations (which for an accurate model you'd usually want) that means a lot more CPU cost. Since you have to solve this system at every sample, and it is usually an iterative process, this gets expensive fast.

As for the actual modelling, there are countless ways to model the same system (WDF, just evaluating currents at each integrator then using a LUT for the nonlinearity, decomposing the system into linear and nonlinear blocks, using BLT for some sections etc). Each of which has various tradeoff decisions along the way. Some of these methods can be quite hard to apply.

I would argue that anti aliasing is the easier part of this design process, since for AA canned solutions more or less exist. It is therefore something that the engineers likely knew about but decided against to be able to spend that CPU elsewhere. Maybe the plugin is meant for sounds in lower registers for instance.

By focusing on this one aspect of the modelling, I think he is doing the community a disservice.

You can only really tell how close an emulation gets by either blind testing it against the real deal or evaluating how well it's characteristics fit to the real thing.
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:25 AM   #176
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One reason I scaled back building circuits for people was simply not having time but the other reason was having a conscious. I had a pedal I designed and it had a switch that selected between all odd harmonics or odd+even. I used some germanium diodes in a particular config to achieve this (very common trick really). I actually designed it as boost, because it resulted in just about enough extra gain to use it that way...

The thing I found is no matter how I worded things, end users would latch on to and invent things they heard such as "wow, I can really hear the sweetness of those 2nd order harmonics when the germaniums switch in" - except it was actually switching them out and so on. I realized it's not that hard to sell a whole lot of imaginary mojo.

One point there is users are dying for magical mojo to believe in and the marketing and god knows how many companies just milk that need.
THIS!
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:31 AM   #177
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Whit analog circuits, it's a little bit of everything when you overdrive them. It's noise (hiss), possibly a little hum, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, maybe even crossover distortion...

With a plugin, it's only aliasing. Sounds very different. It's only one taste. With analog, every device tastes differently. Not only between different brands, also between different devices of the same brand/model.

And people exaggerate with plugins. Because they can.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:37 AM   #178
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One reason I scaled back building circuits for people was simply not having time but the other reason was having a conscious........
The main reason I stopped modifying pedals was that my eyesight was getting blurry and I was worried that the solder fumes were causing that..or was it just from getting old anyway?
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:47 AM   #179
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Sounds like a great idea!

Anyone else?
where do we sign up
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:42 AM   #180
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Isn't that the video he got massively nailed for as an epic fail?
I don't know?

He demonstrated 3 different 1176's against the KT, and IIRC the KT was missing the "snap" harmonic on top. I didn't *study* the video, I glanced at it while eating dinner one night. I didn't intend on buying or not buying the KT.

Just watched it again. If he did his calibration right the meters on the KT are wrong and it's lacking the harmonic, or it wasn't being hit as hard as the rest and that's why it's missing the harmonic.

Is this the fail referenced?

As I wrote, I can take something with a grain of salt. IMO it's a luxury to buy a compressor just to have that effect you can recreate in software either way. He's got a lot of nice gear and I watched what he had to say, and it occupied my mind for about 100 ms and hasn't since until this thread.

I have friends that are fortunate enough to have hardware as their "plugins", and to them it's a matter of patching into it and it doing what it's supposed to. In that world having a fiddly 1176 is not "having and 1176", and that's fine. The guy plugs it in and it's different - maybe with more gain in the front it would be the same, I don't know but nobody forced me to watch the video.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:12 AM   #181
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lolz--sign here.....on da dotted line................* .comedyclub.
shape shifting reptillians!! now who would of thunk it!! thing is,not all reptillians are evil,only a small handfull which kinda spoil it for the rest of the universes or peacefull kinds..
all are learning..all are evolving,expanding+contracting,revolving,convolvin g,,convoluting,fractalizing......all are shifting into something different..
another greater cosmic history key is about to be turned..the mystery deepens..the light beckons and calls...
ain't got time for this,coz time is an illusion,a confusion or delusion-of the permanence or permutations of inductions.. !
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:30 AM   #182
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lolz--sign here.....on da dotted line................* .comedyclub.
shape shifting reptillians!! now who would of thunk it!! thing is,not all reptillians are evil,only a small handfull which kinda spoil it for the rest of the universes or peacefull kinds..
all are learning..all are evolving,expanding+contracting,revolving,convolvin g,,convoluting,fractalizing......all are shifting into something different..
another greater cosmic history key is about to be turned..the mystery deepens..the light beckons and calls...
ain't got time for this,coz time is an illusion,a confusion or delusion-of the permanence or permutations of inductions.. !
And you say you are 49? Seriously ? I'm guessing single.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:35 AM   #183
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(This post costs $.10 to view. Don't read this if you don't pay, otherwise I can't refund you.)


There are about a dozen mixers/engineers whose work I respect, and who I think are a cut above in taste/procedure.

I can say the exact same about guitar players. I can also say that some of my favorite guitar players have either technical or theoretical limitations that a lot of guitar players don't have; but that's irrelevant to what the end result is. The Edge is just as much an artist as Allan Holdsworth as far as I'm concerned. Paul Gilbert has a process, and so does Jeff Beck.

I listen to audio "engineer" interviews a lot, wanting to glean some morsel of info. I'm not listening because I think this person is smarter than me, or is the Ultimate All Knowing Pinnacle of Recording Knowledge, or is the ABSOLUTE BEST ENGINEER OF ALL TIME. It's because if you take away the foibles of an otherwise *competent* human, what's left over *may actually be of worth*. It may be something I don't know.

At this point I'm well over diminishing returns when listening to such hings, but I'm still going to stay alert. White Sea Guy may or may not have some useful knowledge. I'll probably not watch one of his videos again unless it's something as specific as "the KT 1176 sucks", but I'm not going to attack him for making a mistake.


... but I also watch videos by People Who Shall Not Be Named who make me wince because I routinely hear them say something that's a dichotomy, or it reveals they don't know what they're talking about *exactly*. That doesn't matter, I'll still watch, because in other things they know a lot and have a lot of experience. Or they use that thing they don't know *exactly* in a very efficient or productive way. Collating knowledge in the 21st century should not be thought of as easy just because info is plentiful.


/ Remember, I didn't force you to read that and chances are you didn't pay me $.10
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:38 AM   #184
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The main reason I stopped modifying pedals was that my eyesight was getting blurry and I was worried that the solder fumes were causing that..or was it just from getting old anyway?
Probably from aging. I have a few sets of these that make it pretty easy to see - I still design and build pedals or other circuits, I just don't actively sell them anymore other than the occasional favor:

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Old 06-12-2019, 07:16 AM   #185
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Unless I misunderstood, the guy's argument was that aliasing is bad because it introduces inharmonic content, whereas his desk was just giving the harmonic series. That seemed to be what he thought was sounding off about plugins vs. hardware.

He didn't make it clear, as it was amongst a lot of rambling, but that's what I got from it. If that is the case, it is a bogus conclusion, because in real world usage analogue gear will do the same (though often masked by the high noise floor).

You can say that it is an artefact that is not present in an analogue signal chain, but to proclaim it as the key to why digital emulations sound off is a stretch, especially as in most real world applications it will be masked - essentially erasing it (the Waves "analog" switch on many of their plugins introduces a noise floor for this very purpose, just like the intermodulation distortion from a tape machine bias tone is masked by the noise floor in most cases).
He was pointing out ONE issue (aliasing) in that video. But that one issue causes other problems, which he did not point out in that video. And the point wasn't specifically inharmonics, but rather lower frequencies than the fundamental being generated, including inharmonics. In other videos, he points out other issues with emulations, such as loss of clarity, introduction of graininess, lack of low frequency depth, lack of upper frequency sparkle, lack of transformer-like distortion, too slow attack speed, and likely more issues in other videos that I haven't seen yet.

What I liked (audio wise) about his comparison of an 1176 clone and an 1176 plugin and a a demo of an 1176 clone was that with the hardware unit, there was tons of character and brilliant riding of the source material (very reactive) but with great clarity when using alot of compression. What I have heard in plugins when using alot of compression is loss of clarity, lack of desirable character, vague riding, and overall smashing.

Any way, his videos got me looking into airwindows plugins, which seem to get lots of praise. I haven't tried any of them to date, but I really like the lack of fancy gui's to hide behind. It's an indication that the developer isn't interested in tricking/influencing users via visuals rather than relying on results of the audio only. And overall, his videos haven't turned me away from plugins. I am definitely picking up Valhalla Delay, and will be demoing True Iron and Airwindows stuff.
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:30 AM   #186
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Probably from aging. I have a few sets of these that make it pretty easy to see - I still design and build pedals or other circuits, I just don't actively sell them anymore other than the occasional favor:


That's what I need; might be time to start mucking about with diodes again.
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:56 AM   #187
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Just listening to demos of Airwindows console5 and totape4, I have to say that these plugins are so subtle that I couldn't give a shit if they are on or off. But probably like so many other 'analog' plugin demos on youtube, the people demonstrating them are doing so in such a way that the plugins might as well be turned off.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:07 AM   #188
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Interesting (and funny) thread.


Something I haven't seen mentioned yet. If you're dealing with one instance of an analog modeling plugin, I don't see a human being able to hear much of a difference. But if we're talking about a large mix that could have a hundred or so plug-ins, it seems to me that you would end up with a lot of artifacts that would add up to a less clear mix.

Obviously, the same amount of analog processors would create measurably more artifacts, but the fact is that aliasing is a particularly unpleasant sound, so I feel like that end result would be some of that digital "edge" or "coldness" whicj is certainly a thing, though less than it used to be due to people working at higher sample rates and bit rates, and better digital hardware and plugins than 10+ years ago.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:11 AM   #189
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Just listening to demos of Airwindows console5 and totape4, I have to say that these plugins are so subtle that I couldn't give a shit if they are on or off. But probably like so many other 'analog' plugin demos on youtube, the people demonstrating them are doing so in such a way that the plugins might as well be turned off.
I felt the same way after trying them.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:15 AM   #190
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Any way, his videos got me looking into airwindows plugins, which seem to get lots of praise.
If you want lots of aliasing, he's your man.

I think they mostly like each other because they link back and forth. I personally wouldn't really consult either for DSP advice though.

EDIT: That said, if it sounds good to you, use it!
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:34 AM   #191
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I have asked this elsewhere on the forum before: Do any of you know of a song or album that is band oriented (rock, blues, country, jazz) that didn't use outboard analog gear for tracking and mixing and that sounds like a record? By 'record' I don't mean necessarily vinyl but rather, was tracked and mixed as records were made before digital and dsp became so prominent (tape, console, outboard). I have yet to hear a single one (song or album).

Or maybe put it another way: Do you know of a band oriented song or album that was all digitally recorded and mixed that sounds great?
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:58 AM   #192
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Do you know of a band oriented song or album that was all digitally recorded and mixed that sounds great?
https://moondogsmn.bandcamp.com (no outboard gear and in fact no oversampling either)

I could go through the rest of my portfolio if you want, but it gets into grindcore real fast. Those actually sound great too, but it’s tough for most people to tell.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:03 AM   #193
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https://moondogsmn.bandcamp.com (no outboard gear and in fact no oversampling either)

I could go through the rest of my portfolio if you want, but it gets into grindcore real fast. Those actually sound great too, but it’s tough for most people to tell.
Cool band. But the recording sounds pretty lofi (and live).
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:12 AM   #194
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Vulfpeck records mostly digital. Doesn't get more creamy than that.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:14 AM   #195
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Or maybe put it another way: Do you know of a band oriented song or album that was all digitally recorded and mixed that sounds great?
Might be a notch hard to verify - how many bands list all the gear used during recording?

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https://moondogsmn.bandcamp.com (no outboard gear and in fact no oversampling either)
Hey, my first guess would be "this is one of those bands still doing tape stuff"
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:19 AM   #196
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Vulfpeck records mostly digital. Doesn't get more creamy than that.
Can you point something specific out?

I know that Andrew Scheps mentions mixing all in the box. But it seems that I remember elsewhere him mentioning that he first tracks through great analog (preamps, tape, compressors).
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:21 AM   #197
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Might be a notch hard to verify - how many bands list all the gear used during recording?
That would be more knowing something about the engineer and studio involved in a recording than the band.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:28 AM   #198
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I know that Andrew Scheps mentions mixing all in the box. But it seems that I remember elsewhere him mentioning that he first tracks through great analog (preamps, tape, compressors).
I have seen him in an interview speaking more specifically, but I think this gets the point across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgrxbfNPmK0&t=1m42s

I think he has given off an impression in some interviews that he just tracks straight to digital and does all digital processing. But that doesn't seem to be the case at all. It seems that he records through analog gear, transfers to digital, then mixes with plugins, after imprinting the sound of analog gear first. I have mixed some analog recorded multitracks myself using plugins (free plugins at that), and they ended up sounding pretty nice, considering my low level of experience with mixing. But key to that was that the tracks were recorded with great mics in good rooms to tape and some outboard first. And I have heard other people (on other forums) do really good mixing of all digitally recorded tracks, using only plugins, but the sound just wasn't great (although I could hear the skill in their mixing). And while I recognize my mixing skills not being near what I have heard from these other people, the resulting sound had very similar fundamental qualities to it when doing the same (mixing all digitally recorded tracks).
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:30 AM   #199
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I have seen him in an interview speaking more specifically, but I think this gets the point across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgrxbfNPmK0&t=1m42s

I think he has given off an impression in some interviews that he just tracks straight to digital and does all digital processing. But that doesn't seem to be the case at all. It seems that he records through analog gear, transfers to digital, then mixes with plugins.
I mean, I record through analog microphones, into analog preamps.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #200
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Cool band. But the recording sounds pretty lofi (and live).
Oh you meant overproduced radio-friendly bullshit?

This comes up in a shuffle of all my favorite records and sounds perfectly appropriate. But the point being nobody has said it’s obviously an all-digital mix.
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