v6.13+dev0806 - August 6 2020

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by planetnine

But the best bit about REAPER editing is its Tool-less interface. The whole of the ergonomics is built around not having to repeatedly move the mouse cursor to a tool palette to change tools.

About this we could just assign a keystroke to each tool e.g from 1-7

Originally Posted by planetnine

You would give up all that workflow fluidity rather than swap fingers for selecting an editing area..? I donÂ’t think REAPER has to emulate other DAWs to that degree.
>

IMHO i would prefer tools rather than pressing more than 2 key modifiers e.g ctrl+alt+shift+win+drag in order to use all of the modifiers for a specific context. With tools we could minimize the number of key modifiers

Also this would help with area selection to enter a mode like:
track-media item context: left drag creates an area, ctrl+drag copy the area, alt+left click extends the area.
With tools we could use again ctrl+drag to copy an item by changing tool. Without tools if we assign ctrl+drag to area selection, how could we copy an item? only if we choose a different key modifier but then the consistency is lost..
Then if we have alt+click to extend the area, what if we don't want to use area selection and use alt+left click again for something else, like splitting the item? Again we have to choose a different modifier..

[bFooz]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Regarding a solution for this, i posted also above that it would help a lot if we had another context, Media item Label context.

There is Media item Bottom Half context. In this way a lot of other daws separate the top half for area selection/time selection and the bottom half for item movement. Samplitude, Studio One, ProTools. I have set it up like this as well a long time ago.

If you mean the space occupied by item label and unoccupied by the item itself, I do not use it like this, I have labels over items. In this case, item label is short and can be even close non-existent.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

About this we could just assign a keystroke to each tool e.g from 1-7



IMHO i would prefer tools rather than pressing more than 2 key modifiers e.g ctrl+alt+shift+win+drag in order to use all of the modifiers for a specific context. With tools we could minimize the number of key modifiers

Also this would help with area selection to enter a mode like:
track-media item context: left drag creates an area, ctrl+drag copy the area and not the item, alt+left click extends the area.
With tools we could use again ctrl+drag to copy an item by changing tool. Without tools if we assign ctrl+drag to area selection, how could we copy an item? only if we choose a different key modifier but then the consistency is lost..
Then if we have alt+click to extend the area, what if we don't want to use area selection and use alt+left click again for something else? We have to choose again a different modifier..

i would prefer too , by far ..

[bFooz]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

IMHO i would prefer tools rather than pressing more than 2 key modifiers e.g ctrl+alt+shift+win+drag

Yes, there exists a balance between tools vs non-tools. Studio One and Pro Tools AFAIK do balance this well.
But these applications are designed by actual designers, not by a forum comitee and programmers.

Also when having to use too many modifier combinations, it is really difficult to remember what does what and I sometimes just try all possible combinations to find the one I need.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by bFooz

There is Media item Bottom Half context. In this way a lot of other daws separate the top half for area selection/time selection and the bottom half for item movement. Samplitude, Studio One, ProTools. I have set it up like this as well a long time ago.

If you mean the space occupied by item label and unoccupied by the item itself, I do not use it like this, I have labels over items. In this case, item label is short and can be even close non-existent.

I tried also this way of having the bottom half for time selection and the top part for moving the items, but it's not useful to me, especially when the track height is small , because many times there's was a problem when i wanted to move the item but accidentaly i was creating time selection. You can't predict all the time where the middle of the item is when you are working fast and there's a lot of editing, splitting involved, which is kind of annoying.

Yes i meant the label area, about labels over items, then maybe if there was another area above the item for moving,copying etc? Or maybe if we could specify the height where the bottom media item area starts,between the middle and the label area. So we could raise the height of the bottom media item area closer to the label area.

But on the label area or at least the top area, is more clear where you mouse over to edit(move-copy) while with the bottom half part, you can't specify easily the middle of the item which sometimes (at least for me) leads to unwanted edits.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by bFooz

Also when having to use too many modifier combinations, it is really difficult to remember what does what and I sometimes just try all possible combinations to find the one I need.

Yes, same here... With tools we could use the same key modifiers with different behavior for different tasks..which is way easier to remmember. Simplicity is the best imo.

[bFooz]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

when i wanted to move the item but accidentaly i was creating time selection. You can't predict all the time where the middle of the item is when you are working fast

Changing mouse cursor(-s) would help. When I have time selection+marquee for the top part, the cursor changes to a bracket over there, and for the bottom part it changes to a normal arrow.

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by bFooz

Yes, there exists a balance between tools vs non-tools. Studio One and Pro Tools AFAIK do balance this well.
But these applications are designed by actual designers, not by a forum comitee and programmers.

Also when having to use too many modifier combinations, it is really difficult to remember what does what and I sometimes just try all possible combinations to find the one I need.

I totally agree. There needs to be a good balance between tools and mouse modifiers.
And I permanently struggle to remember my assigned mouse modifiers 😅

[Win Conway]

Originally Posted by planetnine

But the best bit about REAPER editing is its Tool-less interface. The whole of the ergonomics is built around not having to repeatedly move the mouse cursor to a tool palette to change tools.

You would give up all that workflow fluidity rather than swap fingers for selecting an editing area..? I don’t think REAPER has to emulate other DAWs to that degree.




>

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense, the best bit about Reaper is that you and I can set it up to work how we want it to work, even though that is two completely different ways because we both have different ideas of ergonomics, so lets refrain from trying to push one way vs another and just add the required options for the user to decide.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by bFooz

Changing mouse cursor(-s) would help. When I have time selection+marquee for the top part, the cursor changes to a bracket over there, and for the bottom part it changes to a normal arrow.

Yes, but when the track height is small is, not that easy and most of the times the mind accidentaly forgets that the item is splitted in half.Maybe a dotted line indicator would be nice to show always the middle.

But again i would prefer to have more space to the item height for moving the item, if we could arrange the height between the middle and the label area where the bottom modifiers starts, would be nice.

EDIT: the good thing about having a label area context is that it's going to have a different color than the item to stand out better and it's going to be always at the top.
Similar way we can move AIs from the label area, even though it's at the bottom.

Originally Posted by Win Conway

the best bit about Reaper is that you and I can set it up to work how we want it to work, even though that is two completely different ways because we both have different ideas of ergonomics, so lets refrain from trying to push one way vs another and just add the required options for the user to decide.

+1

[deeb]

Originally Posted by bFooz

Also when having to use too many modifier combinations, it is really difficult to remember what does what and I sometimes just try all possible combinations to find the one I need.

with the additional hassle that manny manny modifiers share the same mouse icon... it's too much , .. it's a public health issue

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Yes, same here... With tools we could use the same key modifiers with different behavior for different tasks..which is way easier to remmember. Simplicity is the best imo.

Yeah, agree.

For commonly used actions, it's easy to remember what does what. But when I'm looking for a specific action/modifier that's not as frequently used, I can't even tell you how many times I've gotten into "is Alt+Shift? Nope. Is it Ctrl+Shift? Nope. Is it Shift? Nope. Is it Shift+Right Drag? Close. Is it Alt+Shift+Right Drag? There it is!"

How is that better from a workflow perspective than being able to call up a set of "Mouse Modifier Presets (e.g. a tool)?" Personally, I'd rather be able to have an "Area Selection" preset, a "Time Selection Preset," a "Time Stretch Preset," maybe a "Split Preset," and just assign those to a toolbar action/shortcut to swap between simple mouse commands and tools as needed.

If it could be handled that way, existing users could maintain their existing workflows, but anyone looking for a more tool-based set of mouse actions, could create custom ones in a very Reaper, highly-customizable, way! Just allow users to create Mouse Modifier presets, and swapping those to actions and tools. I kind of do something similar in the MIDI Editor where I change the left-click options to alternate between painting multiple notes or entering single notes. This would be an expansion of that same type of concept.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

How is that better from a workflow perspective than being able to call up a set of "Mouse Modifier Presets (e.g. a tool)?" Personally, I'd rather be able to have an "Area Selection" preset, a "Time Selection Preset," a "Time Stretch Preset," maybe a "Split Preset," and just assign those to a toolbar action/shortcut to swap between simple mouse commands and tools as needed.

Exactly!!

Originally Posted by Funkybot

If it could be handled that way, existing users could maintain their existing workflows, but anyone looking for a more tool-based set of mouse actions, could create custom ones in a very Reaper, highly-customizable, way! Just allow users to create Mouse Modifier presets, and swapping those to actions and tools. I kind of do something similar in the MIDI Editor where I change the left-click options to alternate between painting multiple notes or entering single notes. This would be an expansion of that same type of concept.

Yes please!

[_Stevie_]

What Breeder does in Reaper ReWorked is:
he put buttons in the toolbar to activate certain tools.
Those tools basically re-assign scripts to mouse modifiers and revert back
when deactivated. This is a real clever way of doing it.

However, the issue with the concept is (applied to splitting for example): every time you have several items selected and want to split a group of items, all items are unselected. Only the item under the mouse is selected. And unfortunately this renders the whole concept useless, because selecting the item under the mouse is hardcoded into the mouse modifiers and cannot be deactivated by an option.

[n997]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

For commonly used actions, it's easy to remember what does what. But when I'm looking for a specific action/modifier that's not as frequently used, I can't even tell you how many times I've gotten into "is Alt+Shift? Nope. Is it Ctrl+Shift? Nope. Is it Shift? Nope. Is it Shift+Right Drag? Close. Is it Alt+Shift+Right Drag? There it is!"

I've printed a reminder sheet (fairly large and visible) for my mouse modifier configuration and taped it right next to my displays. Haven't looked at it in a while, due to most of modifiers becoming muscle-memorized.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Personally, I'd rather be able to have an "Area Selection" preset, a "Time Selection Preset," a "Time Stretch Preset," maybe a "Split Preset," and just assign those to a toolbar action/shortcut to swap between simple mouse commands and tools as needed.

For me it's the opposite. I find workflow based on mouse modifiers to be more convenient and faster than workflow based on tool selection - no need to click/unclick tools and be mindful about of which of them are active at any given time.

As far as I understand, via toolbars in REAPER it is possible to realize tool selection-based workflows to some extent. I have no problems with that being developed further for users who prefer tool-based workflows, but support for mouse modifier functionalities should of course remain of equal importance.

[n997]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

However, the issue with the concept is (applied to splitting for example): every time you have several items selected and want to split a group of items, all items are unselected. Only the item under the mouse is selected. And unfortunately this renders the whole concept useless, because selecting the item under the mouse is hardcoded into the mouse modifiers and cannot be deactivated by an option.

Not sure if I understand correctly, but in that particular situation, wouldn't linking "Media item/left click" to a script that includes the action "Item grouping: Select all items in groups" do what's intended?

At least, my "Media item/left click" is linked to a script that includes, among other things, these:

40528 "Item: Select item under mouse cursor"
40034 "Item grouping: Select all items in groups"

This results in all items of a group [to which clicked item belongs to] being selected.

[planetnine]

Originally Posted by Win Conway

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense, the best bit about Reaper is that you and I can set it up to work how we want it to work, even though that is two completely different ways because we both have different ideas of ergonomics, so lets refrain from trying to push one way vs another and just add the required options for the user to decide.

Look again: "the best bit about REAPER editing is its Tool-less interface..."

And if you want the user interface of a "conventional" DAW, go and use one...

As I said before, let the users have the Left-Drag context as an option and work it through themselves.


>

[deeb]

Originally Posted by planetnine

Look again: "the best bit about REAPER editing is its Tool-less interface..."

And if you want the user interface of a "conventional" DAW, go and use one...

As I said before, let the users have the Left-Drag context as an option and work it through themselves.


>

one thing that probably you not getting is that both tools are useful probably 50% of the time each. if they just swap IS With AS would be horrible.

[planetnine]

Sorry deeb, I didn't follow that. I do agree that Item Selection and Area Selection both have their uses, strengths and places. I wouldn't want one to the exclusion of the other.


>

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by n997

Not sure if I understand correctly, but in that particular situation, wouldn't linking "Media item/left click" to a script that includes the action "Item grouping: Select all items in groups" do what's intended?

At least, my "Media item/left click" is linked to a script that includes, among other things, these:

40528 "Item: Select item under mouse cursor"
40034 "Item grouping: Select all items in groups"

This results in all items of a group [to which clicked item belongs to] being selected.

Yeah, that's true. But that would introduce an additional step of grouping and wouldn't really feel untuitive IMO.

[n997]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Yeah, that's true. But that would introduce an additional step of grouping and wouldn't really feel untuitive IMO.

I actually did misunderstand what you had meant originally - I interpreted the words "to split a group of items" as meaning that they're already grouped, and that you were asking for means of setting all items in a group as selected by clicking just one of them.

So nevermind

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by n997

As far as I understand, via toolbars in REAPER it is possible to realize tool selection-based workflows to some extent. I have no problems with that being developed further for users who prefer tool-based workflows, but support for mouse modifier functionalities should of course remain of equal importance.

Not even close though,you can't change behavior for ctrl,alt,shift,win+left drag modifiers from a toolbar, neither to use the same modifiers with different behavior.
This is possible to some degree for left click modifiers only, that report toggle state in conjuction with cycle actions(which takes a lot more time to set them up than changing the modifiers and then save the preset as action), else you are limited to change only the default modifiers(both left click/drag).

Yeah , tools would be something extra as an option for users who prefer working this way, they won't break any other workflows.