Old 12-10-2015, 11:22 AM   #1
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default I need another microphone, maybe two

I only own one mic - an Audio Technica AT2020 side address condenser. It's fine for recording vocals in my home studio.

In the near future I may be recording a church choir which features a family member. Nothing commercial just a bit of fun and good practise for both me and them. I have taken as read that it will be a stereo recording.

Most stereo pairs I've seen online seem to be matched pairs of end-address mics. Is there any reason why I shouldn't just buy a 2nd AT2020 and a stereo bar? If I needed to buy two new mics, I'd probably decline the opportunity as funds wouldn't stretch that far for what might be a one off.

I'll reserve any questions I have about the best configuration for the mics until I know if another AT2020 is a sensible option.
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 02:15 PM   #2
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Should work fine, although if the 2020 is switchable pattern, you could get by with just one in omni, unless you REALLY want stereo.

Cheaper option too.

On a practical note, if it is at all possible try and get invited to a rehearsal so you can try out mic positions before the "big day".

Oh and remember that if you have to set up in the audience area, get the mic(s) up as high as you can - coughing and chatty audience members could ruin an otherwise decent recording.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 02:22 PM   #3
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Should work fine, although if the 2020 is switchable pattern, you could get by with just one in omni, unless you REALLY want stereo
I'll be honest, I have no idea what omni is so I'll have to look it up. I just assumed that any recording of a choir, orchestra or any live performance consisting of >1 person or instrument should be in stereo.

As far as I know the AT2020 isn't switchable at all, it's just a standard condenser with a single pattern.

The recording of the choir, if I do it, will be in rehersal so I won't need to worry about the audience.

Thank you
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 03:52 PM   #4
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,205
Default

That's excellent if it's in rehearsal. Audience always gets in the way

So with my experience with the 2020 I think it is just fine of a mic. However I don't see much use for two of them in the future when others could serve better use.

The 2020 is a large diaphragm condensor. The size of a diaphragm makes a huge difference on where the best response in the frequency range is. This is more important than the loudness of any particular frequency range, which can be EQ'd. The transient response at key frequencies is far more important.

Smaller diaphragms will move in better proportion to higher frequencies but become slightly distorted by lower ones, the usual result being either subtle ringing or elongation of the transient. For most uses, small diaphragm mics give a more natural response because of their focus on the mids and upper frequencies, where most instruments, the voice, etc have most of their character.

For bassy instruments with a lot of movement and dynamics in the low frequencies, like bass cabinets, tuba, basoon, etc a large diaphragm mic is more appropriate.

Having two single-pattern identical large diaphragm mics is in my opinion less useful to you than having two single-pattern small diaphragm.

For this reason I'd recommend, to fit your budget, a pair of Apex 185. They come with both cardioid (directional) and omni (non-directional) capsules, interchangeable. For a choir recording you could do a stereo pair in XY with cardioid, on a single stand or placed next to eachother, or you could move the mics very far apart over head of the choir in omni. Either way, you'd hard pan these mics in the DAW.

I'd go for the omni set up as it's going to get a closer sound and let you do more with the processing and avoiding too much reverb of the room. The source-to-reverb ratio will be higher if you can get mics closer to the choir.

In fact, if you were to purchase these mics, you'd have three, so you could use the third as a mono (centre) mic a bit further back but aimed at the middle of the choir.

I own a pair of Apex 185 and have compared them with their pricier counterparts, like the Rode NT 5. They stand up very well. You can find these mics used very easily because of their market saturation, too. I picked mine up for around $90 for the pair.

Btw, don't forget rentals! If there's a music store nearby, enquire about renting for the day/weekend, they are usually very cheap especially if you rent the lower end mics. I think I can rent Apex 185 for around 12 dollars for a weekend where I am! Don't miss out on an opportunity to record something and learn in the process because of funds.

edit: even cheaper, the Behringher C4 get quite a good reputation.
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 04:29 PM   #5
dmoss74
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 336
Default

don't you need a pretty potent gain stage in your mic pre/interface, to get a decent level from something like a choir?

but as suggested, a pair of sd condensers (with omni capsules) would do the trick, regardless.
dmoss74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 04:41 PM   #6
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

For a choir, go mid-side in your setup. You can use your existing AT2020 for the mid channel and simply add the figure 8 mic (AT2050, for example) to the setup. No matched pair nonsense required.

That gets you a very flexible recording to deal with, as well as some of the room that makes good choral recordings sound just right.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 08:10 PM   #7
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,205
Default

How big is this choir btw?
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2015, 10:45 PM   #8
grinder
Human being with feelings
 
grinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
Default

You continue to enlighten Fergler kudos...
Grinder
grinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 03:15 AM   #9
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Should work fine, although if the 2020 is switchable pattern, you could get by with just one in omni, unless you REALLY want stereo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLM View Post
I'll be honest, I have no idea what omni is so I'll have to look it up. I just assumed that any recording of a choir, orchestra or any live performance consisting of >1 person or instrument should be in stereo.

As far as I know the AT2020 isn't switchable at all, it's just a standard condenser with a single pattern.

The recording of the choir, if I do it, will be in rehersal so I won't need to worry about the audience.

Thank you
So just to be clear then, now that I've looked up omni and read some other replies, this method will use a single mic capturing sound from all directions and result in a mono recording.

It's just that stereo is so ingrained in my mind as the de facto way to record any group that I need to ask the question
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 03:29 AM   #10
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmoss74 View Post
don't you need a pretty potent gain stage in your mic pre/interface, to get a decent level from something like a choir?

but as suggested, a pair of sd condensers (with omni capsules) would do the trick, regardless.
I didn't mention it in my original question, but do you think the preamps in my Focusrite 2i4 interface would suffice?
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 03:39 AM   #11
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
For a choir, go mid-side in your setup. You can use your existing AT2020 for the mid channel and simply add the figure 8 mic (AT2050, for example) to the setup.
Assuming that the output of the AT2050 is mono... if the choir is lined up from left to right bass, tenor, alto, soprano the AT2050 would pick up (approximately) the bass and soprano, and the AT2020 the tenor and alto? Isn't that very different to what the human ears would hear sitting in front of the same choir?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
No matched pair nonsense required.
Is it the concept of them being selected/sold as a 'matched' pair that's nonsense or just generally using a pair of similar mics

Edited to say: I've now read-up about mid-side recording so I now realise that the figure 8 mic will give a different output for what it 'hears' left vs right and that it's based on output polarity. I've got as far as noting that a decoder is needed, but so far not knowing whether that's hardware/software built into the mic, audio interface, DAW or somehere else. I suspect this option may well end up too expensive and/or complex for me to understand or afford at this stage. But thanks for pointing me in this direction, because I'm certainly learning a lot

Last edited by DaveLM; 12-11-2015 at 05:10 AM. Reason: Done some more reading
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 03:40 AM   #12
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
How big is this choir btw?
Quite small, about 20 I think
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 07:05 AM   #13
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

For some reason my earlier response to this post didn't seem to get posted


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
So with my experience with the 2020 I think it is just fine of a mic. However I don't see much use for two of them in the future when others could serve better use.
I would have a limited future use for a 2nd 2020, but probably not enough to justify
buying it until I've considered all the other options

[SNIPPED all the very helpful info on recording and mic types, thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
In fact, if you were to purchase these mics, you'd have three, so you could use the third as a mono (centre) mic a bit further back but aimed at the middle of the choir.
Apex 185s seem to be very rare here in the UK from what I've seen online - even used ones (I think they're now discontinued). Apex don't appear to have a UK distributor.

I think I'd actually be limited to 2 mics in total as my audio interface is a Focusrite 2i4



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
Btw, don't forget rentals!
That never occurred to me, I'll ask my local audio supplier
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 07:29 AM   #14
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,205
Default

Ah, UK, in which case those C-4 would be more accessible. They go for 40 pounds ish online.

As for the 2i4, yep that should be plenty of clean gain, more than enough to get a good level from the mics. This is a great application for it, actually, normally I like to bash the hell out of it for other reasons but I'll reserve that for a better time. I have one too, it's my portable interface when I don't want to bring 16 channels around with me.

20 people, that's a fair size, and I'd again suggest the stereo omnis positioned just overhead and in front of the choir, a fair distance ahead, each about a 1/3 of the way towards the centre (dividing the choir into 3 'sections' that each mic focuses on 2 of).

But to make things real quick and easy, go rent a second 2020 and position them in the middle in XY. You will get a -slight- lack of middle focus but this can be somewhat resolved using a boost of the Mid channel in post-processing, for example using Reaper's JS effect 'stereo field manipulator' (bring up the 'centre' slider a bit). This will be your lowest cost solution short of borrowing a mic instead.
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 07:49 AM   #15
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

One thing: As was previously said, a pair of SDC mics would likely be more use to you later.
The Behringer C2s I have used actually sounded nicer to my ear than the c4 & you can get a PAIR of C2s for about £45 if you google around.
Certainly baxshop has them at £45 currently.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 10:30 AM   #16
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

2x these:
http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 11:03 AM   #17
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
Ah, UK, in which case those C-4 would be more accessible. They go for 40 pounds ish online.
Thanks, I'll take a closer look at the C4 or C2 (as ivansc suggests) but I'll try and a) borrow or rent another AT2020 or b) investigate the AT2050 for mid-side first
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 11:10 AM   #18
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Too expensive for me. In UK prices equivalent of $300 USD for a pair without the elastic mount. Regardless of whether I buy from the only UK distributor I can find or direct from the Swedish manufacturer
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 11:19 AM   #19
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

2 x £77 is not $300, but it IS the current conversion rate for 1000 Kroner.
There again they are still 3 x the price of the Behringers....

I used to have a pair of the little MXLs but even they are dearer than the behris and not significantly better.
My sdc pair right now are Karma Silver Bullets which are really really cheap (or they were) at $29 a pair, but you have to factor in shipping and tax & the Behringers are probably better for your purposes.
I use the SBs for recording over my shoulders when doing acoustic guitar
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 11:25 AM   #20
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
2 x £77 is not $300, but it IS the current conversion rate for 1000 Kroner.
There again they are still 3 x the price of the Behringers
I was including the 25% VAT which the Swedish suppliers charge for EU customers.
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 04:23 PM   #21
innuendo
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 659
Default

Generally directional mics will have trouble delivering the low-end if used at a distance, due to the proximity effect. You can compensate for that with an EQ, but it is virtually impossible to get this 100% right.
Omni's don't have this problem as they do not exhibit proximity effect. They have another problem, though, which is their lack of directionality. It makes it tricky to use them for stereo recording, since you have to rely only on time difference. Also omni's will obviously pick up much more of the room when used at the same distance. Or put another way, they pick the same amount of room when used at 1/3 of the distance of Cardioid mics (IIRC). What's good is that they will usually get the room sound less ugly than directional mics that to a certain degree distort everything that arrives from off-axis.
innuendo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 04:31 PM   #22
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Generally directional mics will have trouble delivering the low-end if used at a distance, due to the proximity effect.
^That sounds weird, a mic should sound like its spec'd until too close (as in inches), then the proximity effect increases bass. It shouldn't suddenly have bass issues because it is distant due to that effect.

Quote:
The result is that the frequency response of the microphone changes; specifically, it increases at the low frequency (bass) end, as the audio source is brought closer to the microphone. This is the proximity effect as it pertains to audio.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2015, 04:35 PM   #23
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLM View Post
investigate the AT2050 for mid-side first
If the source is a small choir (as in a handful of people) this is probably your best bet. Such small ensemble type scenarios is what mid-side does best. Additionally, having at least one fig-8 mic is a bit of a staple item IMHO.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 08:33 AM   #24
innuendo
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
^That sounds weird, a mic should sound like its spec'd until too close (as in inches), then the proximity effect increases bass. It shouldn't suddenly have bass issues because it is distant due to that effect.
Directional mics are spec'd for a certain distance, *not* for anything further than a certain distance...

Proximity effect works at any distance. Usually the manufacturer will specify at what distance the mic will provide the intended response. Anything closer will provide a boost to the low-end response. Anything further will reduce the low end response.

Example:
http://www.proaudiosystems.co.uk/dow...duct_sheet.pdf
innuendo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 08:55 AM   #25
innuendo
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 659
Default

Personally I wouldn't vote for AT2020. I dislike the sound of that mic, and its uneven response to off-axis sounds.

Unfortunately, there is no to-go cheap replacement. It is not easy nor cheap to make a decent recording of an ensemble at a distance. Particularly vocal ensemble. You need a great room and a great pair of microphones for that to sound good.

That said, if you have to go cheap, then your best bet is a pair of chinese cardioid SDCs. Or a combo of cardioid + fig8 SDCs for a mid-side recording. You will have to fiddle with the low frequecies, but it is possible to achieve an acceptable result.
innuendo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 01:59 PM   #26
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Maybe it's just semantics. I can appreciate the idea that cardioid by nature has less bass than omni but once we get out from the source a little I think the ratio change between them as distance increases would become negligible. In other words once you move beyond a certain distance which isn't really very far, the cardioid would just have a little less bass in all those positions than an Omni would but that same cardioid compared to itself would be about the same at multiple distances once we get beyond 'too close'. If my cardioids sound fine at 2 meters, I wouldn't expect them to be suddenly 'bass lacking' at 5 meters.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.

Last edited by karbomusic; 12-12-2015 at 02:48 PM.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2015, 07:40 PM   #27
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLM View Post
Assuming that the output of the AT2050 is mono... if the choir is lined up from left to right bass, tenor, alto, soprano the AT2050 would pick up (approximately) the bass and soprano, and the AT2020 the tenor and alto? Isn't that very different to what the human ears would hear sitting in front of the same choir?
Two different sets of ears are going to hear differently depending on where they are in the audience. What mid/side gives you is very detailed control over the stereo width, and the ability to bump it down to mono without worrying about phase problems. It is a great solution for when you want to include the room, but need to control how much of the room you include.

Quote:
Is it the concept of them being selected/sold as a 'matched' pair that's nonsense or just generally using a pair of similar mics
Quote:
Edited to say: I've now read-up about mid-side recording so I now realise that the figure 8 mic will give a different output for what it 'hears' left vs right and that it's based on output polarity. I've got as far as noting that a decoder is needed, but so far not knowing whether that's hardware/software built into the mic, audio interface, DAW or somehere else. I suspect this option may well end up too expensive and/or complex for me to understand or afford at this stage. But thanks for pointing me in this direction, because I'm certainly learning a lot
All you need for mid/side is a cardioid mic, which you've already got, a figure 8, which you don't, and the ability to switch phase on one side of the figure 8 channel, which Reaper (and every mixer ever made) will do for you. No magic or specialty gear required.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2015, 03:05 PM   #28
DaveLM
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Solihull, UK
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
Two different sets of ears are going to hear differently depending on where they are in the audience.
My comment was based on a much deeper misunderstanding than that. Given that I didn't know that a figure 8 mic would output anything other than a simple mono signal (I had yet to read about polarity differences between the left and right lobes), I was picturing one channel of the final stereo mix giving you the combined left and right of the choir (from the Fig 8 mic), with the other channel giving you the centre part of the choir (from the mid mic). That's why I thought it was weird.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
All you need for mid/side is a cardioid mic, which you've already got, a figure 8, which you don't, and the ability to switch phase on one side of the figure 8 channel, which Reaper (and every mixer ever made) will do for you. No magic or specialty gear required.
Thanks. My first read through of an article on stereo recording techniques referred to a converter but didn't elaborate, Soon afterwards I realised that it was just a copy and phase switch of the Fig 8 mic output in Reaper.

The more I consider it, I think I will defer the choir recording for a while and save up to buy an AT2050. This will let me do a mid-side stereo recording and also, hopefully, give me another mic which in cardioid mode will match my AT2020 - thus giving me other possibilities.
DaveLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2015, 07:02 PM   #29
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLM View Post

The more I consider it, I think I will defer the choir recording for a while and save up to buy an AT2050. This will let me do a mid-side stereo recording and also, hopefully, give me another mic which in cardioid mode will match my AT2020 - thus giving me other possibilities.
IMHO that's a good move due to those other possibilities etc. When I first started building a small mic collection (nearly two decades ago) I tried to cover as many bases as possible as I went. Now the only issue I have is when I buy a mic, I tend to want two of the same model for stereo needs. I found that when I bought singles, I'd always find myself wishing I had two somewhere down the road - vicious circle.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2015, 10:29 AM   #30
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLM View Post
Thanks. My first read through of an article on stereo recording techniques referred to a converter but didn't elaborate, Soon afterwards I realised that it was just a copy and phase switch of the Fig 8 mic output in Reaper.
You can process a stereo track mid-side after recording using some encoders. I do that quite frequently as I do a lot of field recording in noisy spaces. I process mid/side with Voxengo's MSED, and then simply drop the side completely. It helps to eliminate the noise from the room.

But to record, you don't need that. Two mics, three tracks, inverted phase on one. Easy as pie.

Good luck, and I think you're making a good decision on the mics. Building a small mic locker is not only fun, it's educational.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2015, 01:16 PM   #31
innuendo
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 659
Default

Mid-side processing can come very handy in many situations when you deal with stereo recordings. Almost any mix can benefit from some mid-side eq'ing for example.
innuendo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.