Old 01-30-2018, 11:19 AM   #1
JohnRosso
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Default Slow graphic performance on MacOS

Hello,

I made a video. This is a comparison between graphics performance on Mac OS and graphics performance on Windows 10.

https://youtu.be/vmdIOlI81Fg

I used the same hardware - MBP 2017. I boot camped Windows 10. I used the latest version of Reaper. Everything is set correctly.

At the end of the video, there's a quick summary of what I mean. I didn't use any speed video editing tools. Everything is how it is.

Any thoughts?
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Old 01-30-2018, 11:28 AM   #2
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Something running in the background in OSX? Or... there's some new hardware faux pas with the newer Macbooks at play? (Sure a lot of other faux pas with newer Apple hardware and OSX builds!) I would have guessed the opposite OS's from just watching that performance. Something's wrong alright!
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:54 PM   #3
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Happens on my system too.

Mac OS X 10.12.6
REAPER 5.70 x64

An easy-to-obtain plugin with a visualizer you can observe this with is Nicky Romero's Kickstart. If you open just one instance of the plugin's UI while playing back REAPER's meters slow down quite noticeably.

Same plugin is much smoother on PC.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:19 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Something running in the background in OSX? Or... there's some new hardware faux pas with the newer Macbooks at play? (Sure a lot of other faux pas with newer Apple hardware and OSX builds!) I would have guessed the opposite OS's from just watching that performance. Something's wrong alright!
I don’t think there’s problem with hardware. Because metering is perfect (if frequency update set for 30 or 60 hz in preferences), if you touch nothing and just play multitrack without any plugins on the screen. But once you strat doing some graphics-frame-drawing task like create new track, resize plugins, increase/decrease mixer, open plugins with heavy-graphics-drawing-framework or something like this, you’ll get low FPS performance. I believe this is a problem with Reaper and MacOS on software level, and can be fixed with code.
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Old 01-31-2018, 04:47 AM   #5
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we have been complaining about this horrible performance lag of Reaper in macOS for over a year now, there are a couple of threads about it in the macOS forum area, this proves that Reaper on macOS is not good at all.

Thank you for making this video

.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRosso View Post
I don’t think there’s problem with hardware. Because metering is perfect (if frequency update set for 30 or 60 hz in preferences), if you touch nothing and just play multitrack without any plugins on the screen. But once you strat doing some graphics-frame-drawing task like create new track, resize plugins, increase/decrease mixer, open plugins with heavy-graphics-drawing-framework or something like this, you’ll get low FPS performance. I believe this is a problem with Reaper and MacOS on software level, and can be fixed with code.
My gut reaction would be to blame newer builds of OSX.

I've been happily ignorant still working away in 10.6.8 most of the time. I also have a 10.10 install on the studio machine for demo'ing newer plugins. I haven't really shaken this one down for performance or anything. Everything since 10.6 has seemed sloppy to me. Extra little lags. Quirky behavior even just in a finder window. Then all the 'phone home' stuff they keep adding to hunt down and turn off. I've always kept the latest and greatest on a partition on my laptop just to stay in the loop. I don't feel like 10.13 is even worthy enough to test on the studio machine from the bug riddled mayhem I've seen so far.

Can you boot into 10.6.8 and do the same test?
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futur8me View Post
this proves that Reaper on macOS is not good at all.
That’s a little harsh lol, we’re just talking about fine-tuning graphical performance.

That’s a good idea about checking slightly older builds of OSX serr. It does seem like they add a lot of small “quality of life” stuff each update that affects a lot of programs. I don’t have an older one available but if anyone does it would be nice to see the same sort of test, at least so we can trace back to where this came up.
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
My gut reaction would be to blame newer builds of OSX.

I've been happily ignorant still working away in 10.6.8 most of the time. I also have a 10.10 install on the studio machine for demo'ing newer plugins. I haven't really shaken this one down for performance or anything. Everything since 10.6 has seemed sloppy to me. Extra little lags. Quirky behavior even just in a finder window. Then all the 'phone home' stuff they keep adding to hunt down and turn off. I've always kept the latest and greatest on a partition on my laptop just to stay in the loop. I don't feel like 10.13 is even worthy enough to test on the studio machine from the bug riddled mayhem I've seen so far.

Can you boot into 10.6.8 and do the same test?
But we must focus on the present/future and not on just the past.., macOS has changed a lot recently so Reaper needs its gui code updated to be able to run smoother on the newer macOS.., the new Logic pro 10.4 that just came out last week looks and runs smooth as butter and their new chroma verb plugin graphics is pure eye candy its wonderful.., i read that its uses apples new metal 2 api.

.

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Old 01-31-2018, 09:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Allspice View Post
That’s a little harsh lol, we’re just talking about fine-tuning graphical performance.

That’s a good idea about checking slightly older builds of OSX serr. It does seem like they add a lot of small “quality of life” stuff each update that affects a lot of programs. I don’t have an older one available but if anyone does it would be nice to see the same sort of test, at least so we can trace back to where this came up.

A fact is a fact, facts do not care about feelings.. "harsh".., graphically reaper has horrible gui lag on macOS.., i use both reaper and logic pro and it is night and day when going between them..,

Reaper is not smooth at all on macOS as that video proves.
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:35 AM   #10
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Really simple test is to adjust mixer panel. Move it up and down.
https://youtu.be/vmdIOlI81Fg
0:04 - Windows on MacBook Pro
0:55 - MacOS on Macbook Pro

No plugins needed to demonstrate the Reaper's GUI performance on MacOS.
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Old 04-12-2018, 12:14 PM   #11
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I believe that this is partially recognized as an issue, see this thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=201904

However, I do not think that will fix the lag of using Reaper drawn components.

It's not very slow on my iMac, but it is definitely faster in Windows. I'm not bothered by it. Plugins work fine for me.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:51 PM   #12
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I was considering a new MBP and was wondering if macOS still has this issue on new macs. Thanks for confirming. One thing I found is if you make Reaper window smaller, GUI gets really fast. So basically - more GPU (or CPU?) power, and lower screen resolutions should help.
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Old 04-13-2018, 01:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weedboy View Post
I was considering a new MBP and was wondering if macOS still has this issue on new macs. Thanks for confirming. One thing I found is if you make Reaper window smaller, GUI gets really fast. So basically - more GPU (or CPU?) power, and lower screen resolutions should help.

Then why does FL Studio for macOS run silky smooth on macOS.

Reaper on macOS is the problem not macOS.

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Old 04-13-2018, 02:42 AM   #14
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Other DAW’s are catching up with updates to counter this behaviour. REAPER has a great but small dev team, this (GUI) could not be a priority…. (it should be IMHO)Hoping to get an update regarding this issue. In the meantime: on 10.13.4 (17E199) low resolution mode could be a partial and temporary solution.

[REAPER HSierra Lowresolution - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbaJuNeC17I)

[REAPER HSierra Lowresolution adjust mixer panel - YouTube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09tMWS4dQ5A

[REAPER HSierra Native RGB - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-K775FiygY)
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:11 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weedboy View Post
I was considering a new MBP and was wondering if macOS still has this issue on new macs. Thanks for confirming. One thing I found is if you make Reaper window smaller, GUI gets really fast. So basically - more GPU (or CPU?) power, and lower screen resolutions should help.
Better go with Dell XPS series or something like that. If I were you.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:16 AM   #16
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Reaper Icc18 beta version + non-retina resolution makes faster responce and overall graphic performance is better.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:45 AM   #17
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Reaper Icc18 beta version + non-retina resolution makes faster responce and overall graphic performance is better.

Yes ok but the big questions still remain of why does the beta of FL Studio run silky smooth on macOS retina resolution, and also why does Windows 10 on the exact same Mac retina resolution hardware run Reaper silky smooth.

.

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Old 04-17-2018, 10:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRosso View Post
Reaper Icc18 beta version + non-retina resolution makes faster responce and overall graphic performance is better.
I don't perceive any difference in graphic performance concerning Icc18? Did you compare the two versions? If so what system?

Thanks!
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
I don't perceive any difference in graphic performance concerning Icc18? Did you compare the two versions? If so what system?

Thanks!
The icc18 build will likely have better performance for plug-ins that use OpenGL, and for the video window when used on large (high pixel-count) displays. Not because of icc18 specifically, but because it is compiled/linked with a newer (10.7 or later) macOS SDK that enables OpenGL 3.2. We will migrate to these builds for the main releases at some point, though there will likely be a few plugins which break as a result.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
The icc18 build will likely have better performance for plug-ins that use OpenGL, and for the video window when used on large (high pixel-count) displays. Not because of icc18 specifically, but because it is compiled/linked with a newer (10.7 or later) macOS SDK that enables OpenGL 3.2. We will migrate to these builds for the main releases at some point, though there will likely be a few plugins which break as a result.
Thanks for clarifying this Justin.

Lately there has been a tremendous amount of unquestionably great bug fixes and workflow enhancement to REAPER, but it would really be awesome if the GUI of REAPER could run smoother on Mac Retina… Don’t know if this is possible without rewriting large amount of code or if this is a priority… Hope somewhere in the future?
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:06 PM   #21
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REAPER's UI has been stuttering a lot recently after a few hours of use. Usually when I notice it, the whole main thread appears to freeze for a bit every few seconds. Audio is just fine when that happens. It completely goes away after restarting REAPER.

Not sure when this started or what is triggering this (or if I should have started my own thread)...


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Old 04-18-2018, 04:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
REAPER's UI has been stuttering a lot recently after a few hours of use. Usually when I notice it, the whole main thread appears to freeze for a bit every few seconds. Audio is just fine when that happens. It completely goes away after restarting REAPER.

Not sure when this started or what is triggering this (or if I should have started my own thread)...

I've had a similar issue... I was certain it had to be something else on my system. Didn't occur to me that it may be Reaper?

However I have a number of background scripts running, and use dozens of scripts probably 100s of times a day, so it's difficult to say if it's vanilla Reaper.

I'm not sure I could work with vanilla reaper for hours to find out.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:02 PM   #23
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I used quite a few plugins and scripts today in relatively big projects (one was over 400 tracks) so I can't say for sure it's just vanilla REAPER either.

I think I just found an important clue by taking a spindump of the process: https://pastebin.com/raw/wiG8AL66. Mac_GetProcessMemUse. And indeed, the timing of today's stutter is consistent with the refresh rate of the infobar and disabling "CPU/RAM use, time since last save" makes the UI smooth again! I'll check if it's always the case over the next few days...

Last edited by cfillion; 04-19-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:08 AM   #24
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Interesting because the playhead for me has always been very low FPS/stuttery and gets worse and worse with the more plugin windows I have open.

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Old 04-19-2018, 11:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
I used quite a few plugins and scripts today in relatively big projects (one was over 400 tracks) so I can't say for sure it's just vanilla REAPER either.

I think I just found an important clue by taking a spindump of the process: https://pastebin.com/raw/wiG8AL66. Mac_GetProcessMemUse. And indeed, the timing of today's stutter is consistent with the refresh rate of the infobar and disabling "CPU/RAM use, time since last save" makes the UI smooth again! I'll check if it's always the case over the next few days...
Ahh interesting, thanks! Perhaps there is heap fragmentation which is causing that call to be so slow. Hmmm, I'll have to do some testing.
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
I used quite a few plugins and scripts today in relatively big projects (one was over 400 tracks) so I can't say for sure it's just vanilla REAPER either.

I think I just found an important clue by taking a spindump of the process: https://pastebin.com/raw/wiG8AL66. Mac_GetProcessMemUse. And indeed, the timing of today's stutter is consistent with the refresh rate of the infobar and disabling "CPU/RAM use, time since last save" makes the UI smooth again! I'll check if it's always the case over the next few days...
WOW, this could be an Eye Opener 2.0.
Thx very much cfillion and succes with it Justin ! #fingerscrossed
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:49 AM   #27
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Tried Ableton 10... and the graphic is blazingly fast. I mean how it should be on every DAW. But still, love Reaper with my full heart. But still, wait for the magic to happen and Reaper graphics would be like Ableton and so on. Maybe Reaper dev team should have a talk with Ableton dev team.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:55 PM   #28
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Hey guys, hope all is well. Somebody fixed the problem?

Have the same on my Sierra/Hackintosh also on Mojave/Macbook pro 2019

Any ideas how to fix it? Thanks!
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:22 AM   #29
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Any ideas how to fix it? Thanks!
I literally switched to windows based mashine. I start usuing mbp less and less.
Performance on Windows is just... heaven compare to macos version.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:34 AM   #30
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On my win 10, slow graphic performance happens when lots of FX chain windows are docked.

Last edited by ovnis; 01-12-2019 at 11:18 AM.
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