Old 10-19-2018, 02:11 AM   #1
sveniboy70
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Default Latency while recording guitar

Hi all,
I have a latency while I'm recording my guitar.
The signalpath is guitar --> ampf (ENGL metalmaster) --> torpedo capture --> usb interface (scarlet 2/2) --> MBP --> reaper.
As you can see in the picture my signal from the guitar is too late.
I have begun to play on point with the beat.
So.... what must I configure in reaper that the latency will be eliminated?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/70v0ri9z9a...eaper.jpg?dl=0
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:57 AM   #2
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what is mbp
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:59 AM   #3
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what is mbp
Mac Book Pro
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:53 AM   #4
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Ah Ok I assume that you are playing one or more tracks back from reaper whilst recording the guitar through the interface. If that is the case turn input monitoring off in reaper and use your interface for monitoring
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:51 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 4x4uk View Post
Ah Ok I assume that you are playing one or more tracks back from reaper whilst recording the guitar through the interface. If that is the case turn input monitoring off in reaper and use your interface for monitoring
I can't disable the monitoring in reaper, because I have no oportunitry to monitor via my interface.

I have tried this loopback test....is there a chance to modify some value in reaper to eliminate the latency?
See my video please:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ixk5iopj3i...test1.mov?dl=0
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:10 AM   #6
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If you look at the absolute Top Right of the Reaper window,
you'll see that it says "512 spls ~13/13ms", right?

Thats the Audio Buffer of your soundcard/audio device, and the Latency it has.


If you set it to 256, you'll have aprox. half the latency 6.5ms
128 will give you 3ms.

With my soundcard I can go down to 64 samples,
but the latency doesn't get lower than 3ms.

So I can only effectively go for 128.

Have you tried this?
Perhaps it will ease things and make the latency short enough as to be able to play the guitar..

However, it's always better to directly monitor it from the soundcard, if you have the option.
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sveniboy70 View Post
I can't disable the monitoring in reaper, because I have no oportunitry to monitor via my interface.

I have tried this loopback test....is there a chance to modify some value in reaper to eliminate the latency?
See my video please:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ixk5iopj3i...test1.mov?dl=0
That is not true. I have a Scarlett 2/2 and there is a switch on the front that says "Direct Monitoring" Off/On. Slide that switch to the right and you will hear whatever is coming into the Scarlett 2/2. Your headphones/monitors will need to be run out of the monitor jack on the scarlett.
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernzo View Post
If you look at the absolute Top Right of the Reaper window,
you'll see that it says "512 spls ~13/13ms", right?

Thats the Audio Buffer of your soundcard/audio device, and the Latency it has.


If you set it to 256, you'll have aprox. half the latency 6.5ms
128 will give you 3ms.

With my soundcard I can go down to 64 samples,
but the latency doesn't get lower than 3ms.

So I can only effectively go for 128.

Have you tried this?
Perhaps it will ease things and make the latency short enough as to be able to play the guitar..

However, it's always better to directly monitor it from the soundcard, if you have the option.
thanks for answer. yes I have tried it...no changing in the test. there is only chaning in the "description" above of reaper.
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:17 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by HailCorduroy View Post
That is not true. I have a Scarlett 2/2 and there is a switch on the front that says "Direct Monitoring" Off/On. Slide that switch to the right and you will hear whatever is coming into the Scarlett 2/2. Your headphones/monitors will need to be run out of the monitor jack on the scarlett.
thanks for this tipp....ok....I have the focusrite since one week. I don't know all of this tool.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:19 PM   #10
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to clarify, with direct monitoring ON on the 2i2, turn input monitoring OFF in Reaper.

You will hear your guitar BEFORE it goes into the PC,eliminating delay.

Good luck
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:53 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bazzbass View Post
to clarify, with direct monitoring ON on the 2i2, turn input monitoring OFF in Reaper.

You will hear your guitar BEFORE it goes into the PC,eliminating delay.

Good luck
ok thanks....but this is not really the issue.
My problem is that the guitar is not in time with the beat. It will be recorded a little too early --> see my post above
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:55 AM   #12
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Open preferences/recording

Is use reported latency ticked?

The offsets here are where you can adjust for record latency but really you shouldn't need to unless something else is wrong as Reaper corrects for reported latency of your interface and plugins.

Have you confirmed this behaviour is the same in an otherwise empty project?
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:21 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post

Is use reported latency ticked?
It's remotely possible it needs to be unticked. If they OP gets their timing queues from what they feel in their hand vs. what they hear (guitar) coming back out of the speakers, they are actually providing their own latency compensation, then reaper is compensating that.

However, the screenshot offset looks to me to larger than what would be caused by that. They can also check out the record offset delay, adjust that to make up the difference - but I feel we are still missing something.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:39 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It's remotely possible it needs to be unticked. If they OP gets their timing queues from what they feel in their hand vs. what they hear (guitar) coming back out of the speakers, they are actually providing their own latency compensation, then reaper is compensating that.

However, the screenshot offset looks to me to larger than what would be caused by that. They can also check out the record offset delay, adjust that to make up the difference - but I feel we are still missing something.
Yes...use report latency is ticked.
And what did you mean with "record offset delay"? Is there a chance to modify that? Any config available?

Regarding direct monitoring. I have tested it....I only hear my DI signal. That's totally weird for me :-(
Is there no chance to hear my "real" sound?
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sveniboy70 View Post
Yes...use report latency is ticked.
And what did you mean with "record offset delay"? Is there a chance to modify that? Any config available?
As a quick test, disable report latency and record a quick test - then note which direction the guitar track moved. Yes you can adjust the offset it is in Preferences > Audio > Recording at the bottom right of the window. However, if you are going to set that, you can manually, but it's better to use a loopback test to do that alignment then your compensation will be sample accurate.

Quote:

Is there no chance to hear my "real" sound?
Of course but you need to have the latency low enough to play along (I think 13ms is a little high) and we get back to my original question - when a person plays... some listen for the guitar tone to come out of the speakers and they use that as their cue to time the next note they play.... Others, use the vibration they feel in their hand when they play the note as their cue - the latter will literally undo latency compensation because the player is compensating manually which should make notes fall early on the timeline (assuming I don't have this backwards).

Do you know which you use? Do you wait for the note to hit your ears coming back from reaper, or do you follow the vibration in your hand? And whichever you do, try the other one - it may be uncomfortable but it may teach something worthwhile.
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Last edited by karbomusic; 10-20-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 08:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sveniboy70 View Post
Regarding direct monitoring. I have tested it....I only hear my DI signal. That's totally weird for me :-(
Is there no chance to hear my "real" sound?
I suspect you are looking at the visuals a bit closely. I must confess I have trouble with the visual as it seems that guitar is the third track or wav file. On the visual that is kicking in a bit before where it says "Guitar kick in" and not after.

I used to play with a severely delayed card and just shoved the whole waveform to the left a bit if it was annoying but I also found that I was mentally compensating for the delay.

If it is an Engl amp then there should be no delay on hearing your own guitar signal.

There is input latency, output latency and also round trip latency being the sum of the first two. Then there is how you monitor the your own signal and how you monitor the tracks you are playing to. All can be adjusted or nudged about later but we can mess this up by getting too obsessed with the reported latency or just confused by psycho-acoustics.

There is also acoustic latency if the amp is way back or on the other side of the stage a few milliseconds will creep in without even a computer. I do think Macs can introduce a bit of latency with an additional audio safety buffer too but I am not sure.

You can compensate in the ways suggested for monitoring or play in a pocket a bit ahead of the beat. This last one is a style thing and also depends on what sort of material is being played.

Getting down precisely to which sort of latency (or combination of things) is the problem should pretty much automatically identify a solution. It can be a pain not to hear your own instrument's signal without delay until it goes in and out of a chain of things. I would just turn up the Engl speaker or speakers rather than use it as a preamp going straight in to a sound card. Any other form of latency can be compensated for as suggested above. Hope this helps and does not just blur the issue but it can be confusing.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
As a quick test, disable report latency and record a quick test - then note which direction the guitar track moved. Yes you can adjust the offset it is in Preferences > Audio > Recording at the bottom right of the window. However, if you are going to set that, you can manually, but it's better to use a loopback test to do that alignment then your compensation will be sample accurate.
Thank you so much for your patience and the feedback.

I have made this loop back test.
But unfortunately there are no changing in the latency respective in the wave file which will be created.
I have measured the latency and put it in preference-audio-recording-input manual offset at samples.
Then running the test again.....the same result :-(

little video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ixk5iopj3i...test1.mov?dl=0

I don't understand this....sorry.....

Last edited by sveniboy70; 10-21-2018 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:11 AM   #18
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You're on the right track. Watched your video, Maybe it's different on Mac than PC, but I adjust the output offset, not the input. That works. Try it with and without 'use audio reported latency' checked, and see what is the most accurate, repeatable result. As far off as you are now, you will never get tight accurate tracks until you fix it. Here's how I do it.
1) Insert click source. Place headphones on guitar pickup, and crank everything (disable record monitoring or you'll get feedback). Record and measure result.
2)Enter measurement in output manual offset samples box.
3)Retest. If right on, test again. Right on again? done. If not:
4)Try unchecking audio reported latency and retest to see if its more accurate.

I've never tried entering a negative value like you do in the video, no idea if that even works. Uncheck audio reported latency, the file will go very far the opposite way in time...
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pickasso View Post

I've never tried entering a negative value like you do in the video, no idea if that even works.
It does FYI. I actually use -55 samples in my setup for input manual offset, just keep in mind that may move it later vs.earlier, I forget which without testing.

Quote:
I have made this loop back test.
Why are you aligning based on the recorded click's tiny-fade handle? I don't see the actual recorded audio in recorded click and the meter never exceeds -81.9 dBFS so I'm pretty sure there is no recorded click there. I will say that once you successfully complete a loopback test, with latency compensation on, then adjust offset so that it records a sample accurate loopback, something else is wrong if it doesn't align when playing.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:15 AM   #20
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Hello Sveniboy70,

From what I've read I can see that you have just recently purchased your 2i2 interface. If you haven't already, make sure you have downloaded and installed the latest drivers from Focusrite. The efficiency of the drivers can influence the latency behavior in a big way, and therefore manufacturers keep improving them (this can be a huge factor in deciding one brand over the other).

The image you have shown is a typical result of latency: you have trouble playing on the beat because of latency (also your guitar feels physically sluggish and less responsive), and you start to compensate by playing stuff earlier in order to line up with your drums. The guitar signal you hear back from your DAW into your headphones/speakers has latency because of all the processing. The signal that goes into your DAW (pre-FX) has very little, and is recorded almost instantly. This is what causes your guitar to be recorded early in relation to your metronome or drums.

I think there are several things you can do to reduce this:

1. Make sure that you've no programs running in the background besides your DAW when recording.

2. Go to Preferences->Audio->Device: Choose ASIO as your audio system, set sample rate to 44100 and block size to 256 (you can go lower like 128 or 64 block size, however the lower you go the more pops and clicks can occur (after recording you can increase the block size again and you will notice that those clicks and pops are gone)).

3. Freeze tracks that have plug-ins on them with high CPU usage. Tracks you don't need for the recording process are best muted AND make sure to disable the FX on those tracks.
To identify tracks with high CPU usage go to View->Performance Meter.
If you're not too familiar with freezing tracks this might help you: https://youtu.be/BjsZWUpXHRA

I'm suspecting you're using the Wall of Sound plugin that comes with your Torpedo Captor loadbox. Pretty cool stuff man! Seems like a fun way to record guitar. They say it's very low in CPU so I wouldn't worry about that. Direct monitoring wouldn't make sense in this case. Listening to a DI sound totally blows when tracking. Then you should rather consider miking your amp instead.

I hope these suggestions can help you.

Last edited by Tinus; 10-22-2018 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:14 AM   #21
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As Karbo says your loopback test is not done correctly. You haven't recorded the click from the first track onto the second.

What instructions are you following for the loopback test....have you actually connected a cable from output to input to make the loop??
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:11 AM   #22
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Sorry gyus...I'm little confusing with this loop back test.
Here is my workflow of it:
1. guitar into my USB interface focusrite scarlet 2/2
2. interface via USB to my MacBookPro
3. record the 1st track
4. record the 2nd track with changing of the configurartion --> samples (preferences - audio - recording - input manual offset). Here I have put in my negative value of the samples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post
What instructions are you following for the loopback test....have you actually connected a cable from output to input to make the loop??
Sorry...I have had no instructions...where can I find some?
And also no...Have not conect the cables as you describe :-/
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:10 PM   #23
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A loopback test requires you to link a cable from out to in (don't turn on record monitor and don't use direct monitoring of the interface or you will get feedback)

Place an audio file of a click or similar on one track. Send this out the output through the cable and back in to the input and record it to another track.

The difference between the two clicks on that you can check by setting ruler to samples is the record offset you need to make.
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:28 PM   #24
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Looks to me like the latency your're hearing is making you play early (trying to pull the sound back). The setting "Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items" (right click record button) tries to compensate for your compensation and moves the recorded material forward to get it on grid but it's hit and miss because you might be actually over compensating (your note looks about 90 ms early even though the latency is 26ms)... But really you should try lower latency settings if it feels uncomfortable. At 256 or better still 128 you should feel comfortable and find that your notes are pretty well landing where you mean them to.

BTW, none of what I'm saying negates the wisdom of a proper loopback test to establish the actual vs reported round trip latency.

Last edited by Goldreap; 10-25-2018 at 03:24 AM.
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