Old 01-18-2010, 08:37 PM   #1
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Default PiPs and .reaparts - 2010

(PiP : Project in Project)


lets try a new, clean thread for this - they say..
new year, new hope.


http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=17664 - here is the older thread if anyone wants to read back about the idea/FR.

here is a video about "pattern based" PiPs: (36+ MB .swf)
http://www.jasonbrianmerrill.com/bbb...mo-006-CAM.zip


soo. PiPs are cool, but there are a few things about them that should work better, imo.

im not sure if PiPs ever gonna be like .reaparts, but:

* PiPs should be embedded in the parent session

* should be able to implode tracks/items into PiPs, and explode PiPs to tracks

* edited and selected PiPs on the parent timeline should sync some selection in the child session when PiP is opened. now its easy to get lost there - since the child session "looks dead" while playing

* i'd love to see colored "regions" in the child session, according to the PiP item color on the parent session.

* on-demand "Refresh PiP content" would be nice, the RAM render fails sometimes while editing, and once its rendered w/quirks, it plays w/quirks.

* optional temporary render to File would be cool, imo. rendering in the background, similar to the Glue function, for eg. this may give an option for displaying the PiP content peak mixed/rendered to stereo or multichannel media.

* 3 options to see a PiP opened : Inline (like Folders), Floating (like MIDI editor), and in NewTab (as is)



any other ideas?
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:06 PM   #2
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Great! Thanks for putting this together

I've always seen this Feature working as an in-project MIDI item: embedded and floating in a window when you double-click on it. Simple in words but maybe hard to code. PiP's will make my work easier while mixing and on productions, less tracks more control. I could take all related tracks (all guitars, all pianos, all drums, all percussion, etc.) and convert them to one (1) PiP. Just like comping but more advanced: one big item with many items inside which I can edit easily on the floating window. Less tracks: just one track with everything inside: more control: one track for each element in my mix. With a synchronized timeline between PiPs and the main project everything would be easier: faster editing, more control over layers, etc. I think Beat-by-bits has said everything I'd need in PiPs... if I find something else I'll post again. Please share your ideas, how this would benefit your workflow, what you'd like, what you'd need... this is a powerful feature, let's keep it alive
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:38 PM   #3
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I've come across a use for PiPs that may be incredibly hard to code for, but would make my life a LOT easier.

I've got a bunch of individual projects, with backing tracks and record enabled sampler tracks. This allows the drummer in one of my bands to play along to a click, triggering our samples from his real kick and snare that has acoustic triggers hooked up and also have our backing samples/patterns all synced up from the computer.

Our songs for a given live set are sequenced into each other with segues/interludes etc, so before we got our drummer, I just laid them up for each gig with the set order and rendered them out for easy access from my iPod. Now that we're running with a live drummer, its a lot more complicated, and I don't want to have to switch projects on the fly. My current solution is to copy and paste all the tracks into one big project, a folder for each song (and many subfolders for a different mix to the drummer and FOH) and move them all along in the timeline while setting up mute automation for my triggered kicks/snares for each song.

unfortunately the upkeep on this if I change projects is insane, and its already hard to keep track of things (and keep automation within a project together (especially if the automation is on a folder track without items, so it doesn't get moved automatically).

if PiPs allowed midi routing into them and realtime interaction, then all this would be easy as! or is this too much to ask?
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Old 01-19-2010, 02:50 AM   #4
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hi beatbybit;

about your movie...

- play cursor doesn't show in close up part. i get that it is looping, but at first it is
disorienting that the play cursor is nowhere to be seen... (too low frame rate?)

- you do not explain really what you are doing on the track "baz build".. i cannot tell what
is ghosted here, how many pip's you have going in this project, and whether copying a pip
in reaper makes a ghost copy, or a real copy?

nice work on this... it does go a little fast in places for noobs like me,
and the funky beat makes me get out of my chair and dance...
well, that is my problem to solve

so imo, you should provide more background information so as to paint a more complete picture.

as for what i do understand about the f.r. for reaparts:
assuming that pip may remain experimental for a while to come, what do you think of:

1. parts that would only exist on one track (containers for items) which do not reqiure a separate .rpp, (e.g. like in cubase)?
2. folders that are containers (for tracks), and could be collapsed and uncollapsed, again not requiring a separate .rpp?

of course those are not new ideas, but do you think they might be worthy intermediate goals?

jeff dinces

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Old 01-26-2010, 05:43 PM   #5
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I`d love to see drag and drop of a project tab to media explorer as quick way to `pack` a pip....

Example:

Do a loop in aux tab, drag to save, drag back in main project..hope it makes sense.
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Old 01-26-2010, 05:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denmla View Post
I`d love to see drag and drop of a project tab to media explorer as quick way to `pack` a pip....

Example:

Do a loop in aux tab, drag to save, drag back in main project..hope it makes sense.

nice one!

.zip? or just folder+media+.RPP?
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Old 01-26-2010, 06:31 PM   #7
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just a bump because i would like to see this return.

might try the .ini edit in the other thread when i finish this project.
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Old 01-26-2010, 06:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
hi beatbybit;

about your movie...

- play cursor doesn't show in close up part. i get that it is looping, but at first it is
disorienting that the play cursor is nowhere to be seen... (too low frame rate?)
the child session doesnt have a play cursor in action, nor moving VU meters.
it "plays dead" while actually playing audio. thats how it is atm.
i think you can see the play cursor moving in the parent session
(it actually plays a 32bit float version of the session, rendered to RAM)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
- you do not explain really what you are doing on the track "baz build".. i cannot tell what
is ghosted here, how many pip's you have going in this project, and whether copying a pip
in reaper makes a ghost copy, or a real copy?
that track is a "placeholder" for the Bass patterns. that track contains the whole PiP as one take, full lenght item. thats where i copy my patterns out to paste em as new takes to the actual "pattern track"

PiPs are ghosted by nature, if you repeat a part of a PiP and you open the PiP up and tweak that part - all the copy-pasted items of that will reflect to that change immediately.

2 PiPs in this project, 1 for teh Drums, one for the Bass

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
as for what i do understand about the f.r. for reaparts:
assuming that pip may remain experimental for a while to come, what do you think of:

1. parts that would only exist on one track (containers for items) which do not reqiure a separate .rpp, (e.g. like in cubase)?
2. folders that are containers (for tracks), and could be collapsed and uncollapsed, again not requiring a separate .rpp?

of course those are not new ideas, but do you think they might be worthy intermediate goals?

jeff dinces
1. : that would be the "normal use" of an (embedded) PiP i think
2. : that would be the "inline PiP editor" i think

i think we're talking about the same thing basically.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
nice one!

.zip? or just folder+media+.RPP?


I would be thrilled with .rpp alone but anything more is welcome!
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Old 04-10-2010, 04:14 PM   #10
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saa-lala-laalalaa..

..bump
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:18 PM   #11
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As anyone whose seen this thread already knows, PiP is INCREDIBLE! I had a project with 12 full songs in it (went crazy once I got an i7 processor) and it was just too overwhelming to work with -- but because the songs are so connected, I needed a way to perceive them together. PiP gave me just that.

I really hope we get this as a full feature in a future release because I would love to be able to build some of the recursive project ideas I've been saving up "for when the future gets here."

In order for this idea to really beat the Live/FL Studio, what we need is actions for:
  • making a new PiP
  • editing an existing PiP
  • convert selected objects in time selection to PiP (optional auto-name)

It would be nice to ctrl+shift+drag a new clip in and then double click to load the project for editing.

I can't wait to see how this idea develops. It already trumps Live/FL Studio's live abilities
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:20 PM   #12
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I really really want MIDI passed through to the PiP projects from the master project. This would make my life so much easier. Sounds like they're close with the recent changes to multi-project recording/playing etc..
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues View Post
It already trumps Live/FL Studio's live abilities
What ??????

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Old 04-27-2010, 06:15 AM   #14
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+ 1 !
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Why, where exactly and how? Without more detailing I think many live interested users can not understand you much. I am continuously checking Reapers live capabilities against Ableton Lives capabilities and still prefer Ableton Live, because Reaper can not emulate a similar feature as the "session view" (~ matrix view) in Live.
Sorry guys! It's been a while since I used Live. I clear forgot about the matrix (Ekk!). I was really referring more to FL, because all FL has is a live pattern mode, which might as well be muting/unmuting tracks. I don't consider FL's channel/pattern/track nonsense to be anything more than roundabout when compared to even this beta of PiP plus the 'smooth seek' option.

And you're right. Some sort of matrix capability would do reaper good... Though I bet you could emulate a lot with regions. You'd just have to be willing to make a lot of duplicate content.

Where did you explain your suggested implementation? I'd love to see it.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=36634 , almost one year ago. Duplications would be clearly against Reapers "coolness style".
Agreed. Otherwise we'd end up with Sonar's buggy attempts at a matrix and sequencer.

I like your idea. The option for takes to switch only at the end-of-loop/end-of-measure would help a lot in this regard too, wouldn't it? You could work on one take (internally or externally) while another was playing.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
(I suppose Reaper supports "only" 64 takes per track at maximum.)

you can have as many as you need.

did you check my PiP/Takes video?
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
did you check my PiP/Takes video?
Well, yes, but is this all possible without ever touching the pc mouse? Using only midi notes and CC for controlling anything?

From my example before, imagine you have a midi controller with 240 buttons on it, could I use it to trigger those "takes" or components of the song?

Btw. did you make so far only this one video or are more available, it is really cool. Thanks for your efforts.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:17 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Code:
tracks in Reaper  <--  midi channels
takes in Reaper   <--  notes starting at 1 (reserving 0 for initialization)
This is a groovy way to use a midi controller! My biggest wonder is what happens when you have more than one package of takes on a track?

And a little bit more on topic, PiP needs an option to turn live updating on and off (globally and on a per PiP basis). For memory purposes, it would be nice to 'freeze' a given PiP, wouldn't it?
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moliere View Post
I really really want MIDI passed through to the PiP projects from the master project. This would make my life so much easier. Sounds like they're close with the recent changes to multi-project recording/playing etc..
Have you tried using MIDI Yoke or LoopBe to do loopbacks into the other project tabs? I haven't, but it smells like it should work if you can record in one project whilst playing another.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Have you tried using MIDI Yoke or LoopBe to do loopbacks into the other project tabs? I haven't, but it smells like it should work if you can record in one project whilst playing another.
Hmm, no. I do have MIDI Yoke installed though, I will give it a go. I do actually need this working as PiP, not just multiple projects, because I need to have all my projects laid out in a set list... I could achieve what I want by having all the projects have various empty space in them, but that would make it very difficult to actually rearrange the set...
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:49 PM   #22
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i disagree with embedding the sub project in main project, unless its user choice, then you can't go wrong with user choice

but imagine a scenario where you are simply putting an instrumental musical project INTO a blank vocal project, recording vocals to the music (you're out of resources for recording the vocals into the actual music project), and then adjusting a mix later and then coming back to work with vocals after that...

the MEAT of the project is in the instrumental, but the instrumental isn't the "sub project"... the vocal project IS

this is something that i commonly do with cubase, except i bounce the music and import the music as a one channel stereo stem for the vocalist to sing to.

later i import the vocals into the music project when all performances are done and i can crank up the buffer size...

but with reaper, i wouldn't have to worry about any of that!
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:55 PM   #23
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the main thing i'd love this to use this with is "album" projects - loading all of the songs on an album into a single project, making final tweaks to ordering, crossfading and mixes directly inside the album project.

will have an EP finished in a month or two, will give it another shot then.
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Old 05-21-2010, 05:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
the main thing i'd love this to use this with is "album" projects - loading all of the songs on an album into a single project, making final tweaks to ordering, crossfading and mixes directly inside the album project.

will have an EP finished in a month or two, will give it another shot then.
This is exactly what I've been using reaparts for and currently, it doesn't do as well as I'd hoped. While loading the 11, song-length, full-of synths reaparts doesn't take up nearly that much of my 12g of ram, the meta-project becomes unusable and crashes. There's just too many synths (imagine 11 Kontakts, 11 Batteries, and dozens of other synths, however reaparts freezes them).

What I propose to fix this is two modes for reaparts,
-Fluid (how they work now)
-Static (user must choose to reload them)

This way, in static mode, they're more like mix-downs with the conveniences of using an action to update. It would be great for creating sprawling meta-projects.

I once made a project in Sonar that had 301 synths. Naturally, I had to mix down constantly, first singularly, then into groups, then into layers, and finally for the export. The project suffered MAJORLY because it was too much trouble to reach the singular instruments to make tweaks (I couldn't even keep them in the project anymore) and I ended up hacking all my changes, until finally, I had to admit the project was over.

I'd really like to be able to redo that project in Reaper using Reaparts the right way, you dig? As it stands, I don't think 'Live' reaparts would be proper. I just can't wait until this feature is out of beta.
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:08 AM   #25
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Mike,

we dont have .reaparts (yet) - do we?

i guess you meant PiPs?
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
Mike,

we dont have .reaparts (yet) - do we?

i guess you meant PiPs?
I was under the impression the two ideas were folded together. What are the differences?
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues View Post
I was under the impression the two ideas were folded together. What are the differences?
if you read the .reaparts thread, and compare with current PiP functions, you'll see.

or just read the 1st post in this thread.
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Old 05-23-2010, 05:58 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
if you read the .reaparts thread, and compare with current PiP functions, you'll see.

or just read the 1st post in this thread.
I do see the key differences between the two concepts now and I think that they should be combined, because the overlap in functionality doesn't make sense.

With both ideas, we should have the option to:
  • create new part from within the project
  • edit the part easily (in tab or inline editor)
  • freeze the part (aka live vs. static loading)
  • embed the part in the project (current .reapart) or link externally (current PiP)
  • compress/expand time selection/track(s) to part

Doesn't it only make sense that these ideas be merged? The biggest difference is that one is embedded
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Old 06-13-2010, 02:09 AM   #29
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Default synchronized timeline & MIDI pass through

Quote:
synchronized timeline between PiPs and the main project
and
Quote:
I really really want MIDI passed through to the PiP projects from the master project.
both +1!

I'd like to use PIPs for scoring films. The different cues would be PIPs while the video and dialog would remain in the master project. The main advantage over having everything in one project would be the ability to change one cues tempo without getting everything else out of sync. This would be a killer feature for all working with video.
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Old 06-26-2010, 03:07 PM   #30
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post from another thread regarding how logic handles "pips":

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebas777 View Post
@cerberus: Deep linking.
It's been a while since I was using Logic, but for example:

1) you have more copies of the Arrange window (in the same or in separate screensets)
2) in your project you have a folder item (pip, amalgamation) on a track, that contains multiple tracks
3) you enable the "deep link" button in one of the Arrange windows
4) if you select the folder item, all the Arrange windows with the "deep link" enabled will display what is *inside* the folder (one level down).
5) but all Arrange windows with "regular" link enabled will only display upper level tracks with the folder selected on one of them.

But wait, there's more - it also works with editor windows...

So here's the full explanation:
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/logic-catch-and-link

Because it is one of the most useful features, I am starting to think about making a few LICEcap demonstrations for you. Of course for now the best way is to install some old (demo?) version of logic PC...
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...940#post534940

(i did use that function in logic once or twice with midi, not audio however).
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Old 06-26-2010, 04:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
I suppose Reaper supports "only" 64 takes per track at maximum
unlimited but it takes lots of cpu to move from take to take if you have lots of takes like in the pic below (so much takes in one line, takes are useful!) :P


[img]http://img130.**************/img130/7618/81355355.png[/img]
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Old 06-26-2010, 04:31 PM   #32
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hahaha
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:41 PM   #33
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for a little "inspiration", i'd like to collect the similar functions of other DAWs.

for eg. here is how Vegas does the "PiP" (nested sessions)

http://beatbybit.com/vegas/videos/Ve...-sfap0-001.swf


there you can see 2 instances of Vegas. the upper one has the "pattern" i build, the lower one is the "mastersession". so after i have the pattern, i save the session (.veg). then i drop that .veg onto the lower session timeline, and Vegas automatically renders a temporary file, with a special extension (.sfap0). this file plays from HDD, and can be deleted anytime - Vegas will rerender it as long as we have the .veg file.

if i want to modify the "pattern", i open up the .veg, change it, then Save.
Vegas automatically re-renders the .sfap0 in the lower session as soon as i "click in"

the .sfap0 shows the sum of the content - unlike the PiP in Reaper


videos of showing Logic's "Nested Folder", Cubendo's "AudioParts", eXT1.4's "AudioParts", DP, Vision - are welcome..
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:30 AM   #34
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Hi beatbybit,

I've been reading up a bit about .reaparts and PiPs and after being blown away by your video in the first post - I've been playing around with PiPs a little more lately, so I'm just starting to find my own benefits in using them. Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
any other ideas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
* on-demand "Refresh PiP content" would be nice, the RAM render fails sometimes while editing, and once its rendered w/quirks, it plays w/quirks.
Perhaps, a few different rendering behaviors for the more automated (current) type. When the Parent Project is playing - how about if rendering is done automatically (optional?) at a synced rate to the Parent project's play rate - executed at an optimal distance behind the play cursor - almost like it's following behind. I don't know if that could work or if some of the quirky edit/playback is caused because of an overlap between play and re-render on the time line. When the Parent Project isn't Playing - as is now (or better?). An on-demand "Refresh PiP content" could/would come in very useful in some situations. - I agree.

Also, I wasn't quite sure where to post this - but I've been experimenting with PiP's (love the work flow in your Demo btw) and ReSamplOmatic5000 seems to work quite well when using PiPs too. I've found when inserting ReSamplOmatic on a given PiP track in the Parent Project and Loading it up using it's "Import selected item from arrange" button/feature - the coolest thing apart from being able to have a lot of midi control and firing at will - After editing the loaded PiP in it's Tab and going back to the Parent, Triggering ReSamplOmatic will automatically play/Sample of the PiP as edited (as re-rendered in the Parent Projects Arrange). Though the looping function is really cool - it's a bummer no waveform/media is drawn in it's display.

I just thought I'd share in case this might push any other ideas forward.

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Originally Posted by moliere View Post
(especially if the automation is on a folder track without items, so it doesn't get moved automatically).
Have you tried using an empty Midi Item?

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Originally Posted by moliere View Post
if PiPs allowed midi routing into them and realtime interaction, then all this would be easy as! or is this too much to ask?
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Originally Posted by moliere View Post
I really really want MIDI passed through to the PiP projects from the master project. This would make my life so much easier. Sounds like they're close with the recent changes to multi-project recording/playing etc..
I hope some of what I've mentioned in this post may be of use/help towards what you're after moliere.

-Thank you guys
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Old 12-17-2010, 11:03 PM   #35
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PIP is a very important feature IMO, and I certainly hope that support is continued. I am personally using it for organization of parts, and it replaces the Cubase folders method that I was used to. It is actually much more intuitive than the Cubase method because the project is in it's own tab...it's brilliant!

The only thing I would ask for is that the tabs open automatically when the project is open, and double-clicking opens the part in it's own tab for editing (right now it opens the 'item properties'). It may also be a nice option to embed all projects as one project file (i.e. a monolith).

I don't see any other method available in Reaper that allows you to assemble parts/subprojects in a master track window like this, so I would be quite disheartened if this feature is removed or abandoned.

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Old 12-21-2010, 04:46 AM   #36
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PIP is a very important feature IMO, and I certainly hope that support is continued. I am personally using it for organization of parts, and it replaces the Cubase folders method that I was used to. It is actually much more intuitive than the Cubase method because the project is in it's own tab...it's brilliant!

The only thing I would ask for is that the tabs open automatically when the project is open, and double-clicking opens the part in it's own tab for editing (right now it opens the 'item properties'). It may also be a nice option to embed all projects as one project file (i.e. a monolith).

I don't see any other method available in Reaper that allows you to assemble parts/subprojects in a master track window like this, so I would be quite disheartened if this feature is removed or abandoned.

JR
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:28 AM   #37
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I agree-- PiPs/ReaParts should be merged (much like midi can be stored in the project or in it's own file) and be of high priority in Reaper 4. It's clearly and fully one of REAPER's most defining features--if only everyone else knew it too.
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:02 AM   #38
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(much like midi can be stored in the project or in it's own file)
That's what PiP does now. The subprojects are stored as references to files within a single project:



It also looks like 'glue' will convert a PiP'd object into a .wav file...sort of a poor-mans freeze.

What I am showing in this .gif is that I have two PiP projects (the two PiP tabs) that are linked to the objects in the main tab, and then I 'glue' one of the objects, and it is converted to an audio file object. I open the properties window to show that the project is indeed converted to a 16bit 44khz wave file...and then I 'un-freeze' it by simply re-establishing the link using 'Choose New File'.

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Old 12-22-2010, 11:06 AM   #39
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Having a PiP tutorial for beginners what is possible already right now would be great or does this exist? Especially knowing its limits would be not bad, together with some common, practical use case scenarios.
what about the video (and the links) in post #1?
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:14 AM   #40
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That's what PiP does now. The subprojects are stored as references to files within a single project:
Yes and excellent video. You simply haven't shown a PiP stored within a single reaper project (which is what people call ReaParts--and is what we can't do yet).

One could say the ideal setup would be to have PiPs with the following options:
  • Stored in parent project or stored in separate file.
  • Loaded live in RAM or auto-frozen as mixdown.

Italics for what we can't do yet...

Storing projects within the parent (reaparts) is an excellent option for parts that are only used in one project--mostly for organizational solutions and transfering projects--while separate files (as we have now), allow for shared assets, editing the parts in isolation and stuff like that...

The auto-frozen (after changes detected) is infinitely useful in album mixing projects, where each song is a PiP or in complex synth projects (where each layer of sound can stay static most of the time, but the ability to quickly. Right now, we have the live-in-RAM option, which is superb for performance alone.

The fleshing out of these few options and the addition of a few actions really is necessary for the feature to get traction and attention outside the experimental reaper user base (we are vocal on the forums, but not representative of the standard music user, are we not?).
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