Old 06-19-2015, 12:05 PM   #1
m5blackmond
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Default [Prog] Help on the mix one last time

edit v2: https://app.box.com/s/3b0p4su6c1kknlkpjf75u22e3ta7ltom

https://app.box.com/s/hcovkt1epmwrtrykwf9o5hdj844t9iej

Hey guys -- all my tracks for my EP have came back from mix/mastering, and i wanted to get a third party opinion on one of them.

Drums -- they are WAY louder than they are in my reference mix I sent him. My gf thinks they sound fine. As well, i've always gotten feedback that my drums aren't loud enough, so maybe they're perfect.

Lead guitars -- not loud enough? Since this is instrumental music, I wonder if they need to be the vocal replacement and therefore should be louder

I've already sent back notes to him on all of them. The only gripes I had on this one was actually my fault (the ending part -> i switched from a rim click to side stick hit for the drums)

Thanks for listening!
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Last edited by m5blackmond; 06-23-2015 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:17 PM   #2
whiteaxxxe
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I think its totally overcompressed, what makes the kick and the snare causing heavy pumping.

that mastering is bs imo. I dont know what you paid him, but it was too much. you can get that result with a preset from reacomp. by far cheaper ...
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:59 PM   #3
m5blackmond
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Wow! Damn... maybe I can give my own mix as a reference.

https://app.box.com/s/mfrw9ydf5tkdbitb99eg5dgxq6dtkyx9

I think this guy's take on it is leaps and bounds ahead of mine. And, honestly, I thought his was really good.

Is it too compressed even for modern progressive metal? I am for sure a casualty of the loudness war, but I think it's essential in this genre.

Anyway, thanks whiteaxxx. I appreciate the honesty.

What do others think?
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:51 PM   #4
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Pumping like hell!
I don't think it's so much a matter of loudness as just too much comp.
The ME had a few points over your original, but the dynamics of yours is tons better. If I had to listen to one for pleasure, it would be the unmastered version.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
I think its totally overcompressed, what makes the kick and the snare causing heavy pumping.
Totally agree. Your mix is much easier to listen to.
The mastered version has waaaaayyy too much thump, thump....imo
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:12 AM   #6
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Man, I can't hear it at all. I thought I was getting really good at picking that stuff out.

Can you guys explain to me what you're hearing? Like, is it the snare and/or kick too loud, and it's bringing the volume of everything else down when they hit?

I feel like my reference mix is the actual offender here. I listen to that and I hear it pumping at places (only in the drums though).

**** **** ****. I was set to release this thing in a couple of weeks. I even asked the dude, and he said he barely put any compression on the master. I thought then maybe it was a limiter with a super low threshold. Haven't heard anything back yet.

Is it bad enough to turn you off from the song altogether? I honestly think it sounds really good, and I can't for the life of me hear what you guys are hearing.
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:21 AM   #7
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Maybe I can share another one (forgive, the beginnign is cut out so only the drums are in the track)

https://app.box.com/s/wneyh0rgn2fjhv0wuqe208z2dgzgcxt0

Do you guys hear the same thing here?
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:44 AM   #8
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On the first song, the first standout for me were how the guitars were fading in and out. It's not "terrible," but noticeable, and for some, that might even be desirable, so it's relative.

The one you just posted sounded better overall, but that clicky kick got annoying really fast, but that's purely a personal view. Maybe because it was just so prominent was what got me. I don't mind metal, but can't stand clicky (as opposed to solid) kicks. Bad combination as they go hand in hand.
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:29 AM   #9
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THanks again sammy.

SO, I asked him to just turn everything down so his master wouldn't squash everything. And in an intermediate step, I asked him to bring down the drums. Now I think the drums can come back up maybe

https://app.box.com/s/3b0p4su6c1kknlkpjf75u22e3ta7ltom

Is this one getting better? I'm sad that I"m losing loudness, but I think altogether sounds better.
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:46 AM   #10
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The pumping's gone, but yeah, the drums could use more vol, at least the cybals. I can hardly hear them.

"I'm sad that I"m losing loudness..."
That genuinely surprised me.
The style of music you do is to be enjoyed, not fatiguing.
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammydix View Post
The pumping's gone, but yeah, the drums could use more vol, at least the cybals. I can hardly hear them.

"I'm sad that I"m losing loudness..."
That genuinely surprised me.
The style of music you do is to be enjoyed, not fatiguing.
If people aren't in pain while listening, then I've failed as a musician. lol - jokes of course. I guess the engineer feels the same way. He's always talking about "consistent levels with commercial music". But if he can't get it that loud without compromising easy-listening, then I'm not sure what to do.

And for sure I"ll get those drums back up.

Thanks again, man!
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:05 AM   #12
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Well, maybe not so much "easy listening" so much as "reasonably comfortable listening."
I like listening to some styles of music VERY loud. But I'd rather be the one in control than to have it "built-in."

That is, if I listened to a dynamic rock song turned up just as loud as a squashed rock song (which I prob wouldn't have to turn up much at all), I could listen to the one I turned up longer and like it more--again, this with them being at the same volume--but one's manual and the other's 'bulit-in.'
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:44 AM   #13
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the thing is that there is a reason why people have a volume-knob on their stereos. they can decide to make it loud.

if the loudness is "built-in" it is a fake loudness, because you have traded the dynamics for it. the louder the mix is the less impact have the instruments. (listen to "Death Magnetic" by Metallica, the official version and the "guitar hero" - version, bad example, there is that Lars Ullrich kickdrum thing going on ... ... anyway)

so you have to have a reasonable amount of loudness while containing the most possible dynamics.

if you crank a loudness-"optimized" song you will have no "sound" you have blaring mids/highs that make your ear bleed. its just noise.

a dynamically vs loudness balanced song you can crank to nowhere and the song gets better the louder you play them.

that is why there is a volume knob.

beside the fact, that you should have a word with your "commercially loud" engineer: given the song is "commercially loud enough" and is played on the radio, all that "commercially loudness" is going down the drain. at least in Europe and I think more and more in USA (they are always so slow with everything thats reasonable, the idiotic things go way fast ...)

and that is because there is EBU. means in your case with the loud song: they turn it automatically down. its funny, when here the radio plays something from Pink. sounds like **** and its barely hearable. its silent.

so, mix it that it has dynamics that shatter a window if turned up and stay in the -12db RMS loudness range.

and tell your engineer he should do some reading.
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:11 PM   #14
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Okay -- thanks a lot guys (Vielen Dank für whiteaxxxe). You're swaying me away from the dark side (or the loud side).

Lots of wisdom between you guys, which I appreciate so much. I've learned an incredible amount from this forum.
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Old 06-23-2015, 01:18 PM   #15
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sometimes the fun is on the dark side ... sometimes.
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