Old 02-13-2018, 08:19 PM   #1
reapermusic
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Default Recording audio to a click with tempo changes

Hi guys,

I kinda have a two part question here I'll try and ask it as best as possible.

I have been working on a project with a friend of mine.

We decided to add some tempo changes for the various intro, verses,chorus's ect..... I did this via the tempo envelope line and adding tempo change markers accordingly at the beginning of every part that needs the tempo changed.

Problem is....some parts turn out perfectly fine while other tracks or part of said tracks become totally misaligned and mismatched from the rest of the music.

I have noooo idea what I'm doing wrong and it has been driving me crazy all last week till today. ughhhhhhhh

Should I have recorded the audio with tempo mapping the entire song from the start? Would that have been the correct way to do it to avoid these issues I'm having? With that said I'm most likely sure it's user error on my part but just couldn't find an answer on my own.

Ok had to edit this post with some extra info.

I tried again last night, I recorded audio to a click this time laying down tempo change markers throughout a song idea first and it worked great however when I tried changing the tempos of those markers the tracks went all out of whack becoming misaligned and playing totally off from each other.

Last edited by reapermusic; 02-14-2018 at 05:42 AM. Reason: I wanted to add some more info hoping it will help
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:14 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by reapermusic View Post
Hi guys,

I kinda have a two part question here I'll try and ask it as best as possible.

I have been working on a project with a friend of mine.

We decided to add some tempo changes for the various intro, verses,chorus's ect..... I did this via the tempo envelope line and adding tempo change markers accordingly at the beginning of every part that needs the tempo changed.

Problem is....some parts turn out perfectly fine while other tracks or part of said tracks become totally misaligned and mismatched from the rest of the music.

I have noooo idea what I'm doing wrong and it has been driving me crazy all last week till today. ughhhhhhhh

Should I have recorded the audio with tempo mapping the entire song from the start? Would that have been the correct way to do it to avoid these issues I'm having? With that said I'm most likely sure it's user error on my part but just couldn't find an answer on my own.

Ok had to edit this post with some extra info.

I tried again last night, I recorded audio to a click this time laying down tempo change markers throughout a song idea first and it worked great however when I tried changing the tempos of those markers the tracks went all out of whack becoming misaligned and playing totally off from each other.
I usually record to click and change the time sig etc after the fact..but Kenny goia has a great tempo mapping tutorial fyi
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:11 PM   #3
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Hi,
Its best to sort out the tempo before recording audio, midi not so much....as long as you have your projects timebase setting to beats,length ,rate.

As a quick way,Record to click, then split all the audio items at the points you want to insert tempo changes. Then insert your tempo changes. BTW this is advanced stuff, so a good grasp on the basics from the manual would help.
If the tempo changes make your item too short, grab the rt edge of the item holding option and pull to the right. That will time stretch that item.
There are other more in depth ways involving stretch markers and such.
Gl
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Old 02-28-2018, 08:53 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SwampDonkey View Post
I usually record to click and change the time sig etc after the fact..but Kenny goia has a great tempo mapping tutorial fyi
Hi,

Thank you swamp, yea prior to posting I checked out the video tutorial as well as other threads but somehow was getting a bit more confused. I will rewatch the Kenny tutorial, I just thought there were soooo many steps figured there might have been a simpler way.
When you record to a click....do you mean you record your entire song to one tempo and then add the changes?

Thanks
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:02 PM   #5
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Hi,
Its best to sort out the tempo before recording audio, midi not so much....as long as you have your projects timebase setting to beats,length ,rate.

As a quick way,Record to click, then split all the audio items at the points you want to insert tempo changes. Then insert your tempo changes. BTW this is advanced stuff, so a good grasp on the basics from the manual would help.
If the tempo changes make your item too short, grab the rt edge of the item holding option and pull to the right. That will time stretch that item.
There are other more in depth ways involving stretch markers and such.

Of course our other recordings were easy, just one tempo for the sake of learning Reaper better......now that I wanna add tempo changes nightmare LOL

I will keep at it
Gl
Hello Lug

thanks for your input as well!
I do have my project timebase setting set that way.
So for example I should record the tune to let's say 120BPM and then split at cursor and add time signature to the beginning of every item that needs a time signature change?

I had actually jotted down all the tempo changes and where in the timeline they would take place and started recording that way. I also have the tempo envelope line above.

In any case I will try again and also use your time stretching suggestion.

It's just driving me insane, I can manage to record an intro, a verse, chorus and then once I go to another clean part....EVERYTHING goes out of whack.

Thanks for your help, I will rewatch Kenny's tutorial and get at it some more

Last edited by reapermusic; 02-28-2018 at 09:04 PM. Reason: More information
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Old 03-01-2018, 07:48 AM   #6
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Hello Lug

thanks for your input as well!
I do have my project timebase setting set that way.
So for example I should record the tune to let's say 120BPM and then split at cursor and add time signature to the beginning of every item that needs a time signature change?
Hi,
Yes...but my advice on the shorter item deal with the rt edge pull...on further thought, that might not work. Its a big bag o snakes retimimg already recorded audio.
Check the reaper wiki for working with tempo using sws. You have sws installed?
As a clarification...tempo mapping involves making the daws tempo match ones prerecorded material. What your doing is kind of the opposite...but both goals share some fundamental processes.
Put another way..this is post graduate kind of work:-) and I think my brain just blew a 30 amp fuse.
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Old 03-01-2018, 08:40 AM   #7
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Adjusting the tempo after the fact will not work well at all. However, there is a way, if
the tempo change isn't too radical.

If you right click on the "Play Rate" slider, there is an option to "Preserve pitch in audio
items when changing master playrate". That way you can set the Play Rate to fit your new tempos.

How radical you can get with this I'm not sure, I've never tried it.

EDIT: Oops, not so fast, changing the play rate changes for the whole song. However, you can
still do it, but it will take more futzing and time.

Let me think on this and I'll get back.
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Old 03-01-2018, 09:28 AM   #8
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Okay, you can do this by just changing the play rate of the audio items. You'll need to split the items where
the tempo changes take place, then you can change the play rate of the item to fit the new tempo. It's going
to take some time and futzing, but once you get on to it, it shouldn't be too difficult.
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Old 03-01-2018, 10:09 AM   #9
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Okay, you can do this by just changing the play rate of the audio items. You'll need to split the items where
the tempo changes take place, then you can change the play rate of the item to fit the new tempo. It's going
to take some time and futzing, but once you get on to it, it shouldn't be too difficult.
Hi,
Hey tod that's right, but won't that be done automaticly if time base is set to beats length rate?
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Old 03-01-2018, 10:27 AM   #10
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Hi,
In overall concept...
Record audio to straight click. Insert stretch markers on every bar of audio.
Insert tempo changes....I'm assuming subtle tempo changes..like not a ritard ....set grid to whole notes.
Then run an action to move stretch markers to grid.
This is assuming all audio items.
And I don't mean you have to put a tempo marker on every bar, just ,like,verse,bridge,hook...

Not in front of comp but I could swear I've done this before.

Waddya think tod? Maybe group tracks when adding stretch markers? Maybe there's a script that can help automate SM placement?
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Old 03-01-2018, 01:13 PM   #11
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Lug and Tod thank you both so much for your help.
I am going to try more of these suggestions when I get home tonite!
Just to give you a bit more info, I'm doing simple tempo changes nothing radical....for example I'll do a 130BPM Intro in to a 150BPM Verse in to a 150BPM chorus and back to a 130 BPM clean section and so on and so on.
Funny enough this morning before leaving for work I tried it again and I MIGHT have figured something out. I didn't have snap enabled...when I did that it seemed to work but I could be wrong as I was in a hurry to get to work.

Just throwing that out there just in case.

Tonite I will try your suggestions guys,

of course prior to posting about this issue I went through a bunch of videos and threads however the videos were all on putting previously recorded material to a click.

Thanks again!
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Old 03-01-2018, 01:20 PM   #12
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Hi,
Hey tod that's right, but won't that be done automaticly if time base is set to beats length rate?
I don't think I follow, I doubt beats, length and rate will affect the audio, but I could be wrong. Maybe you
could explain a little more, all the steps required to make that work.

Quote:
Waddya think tod? Maybe group tracks when adding stretch markers? Maybe there's a script that can help automate SM placement?
You might get by with stretch markers if it isn't too drastic. I'm not sure how mant audio tracks there
are, but all the tracks that have audio in those places will have to be stretched too. Normally different
tracks won't necessarily line up very well.

A little more input and explanation from reapermusic would help. After going back and rereading his posts,
I'm rather confused where he's at?
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Old 03-01-2018, 01:53 PM   #13
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I don't think I follow, I doubt beats, length and rate will affect the audio, but I could be wrong. Maybe you
could explain a little more, all the steps required to make that work.



You might get by with stretch markers if it isn't too drastic. I'm not sure how mant audio tracks there
are, but all the tracks that have audio in those places will have to be stretched too. Normally different
tracks won't necessarily line up very well.

A little more input and explanation from reapermusic would help. After going back and rereading his posts,
I'm rather confused where he's at?
ha! Sorry guys...Tod I think I have confused myself with my own wording LOL
What I have so far is 3 separate audio tracks... an INTRO,VERSE and CHORUS...all audio tracks recorded using amp sim plugins.
I have placed time signature markers in the beginning of every part....all is well up until I try to record another section and that's when it goes wonky for me.So everything is going smoothly and the click is changing where it should except for when I get to the next section which should be a clean part at 130BPM's It seems the entire song just goes off and is no longer in time with the click but it only happens when I try and add that clean section...everything prior to that is spot on.
Do let me know what other information you will need from me if this isn't enough...that way when I get home and on my computer I can give you more information if needed.

Thanks much guys...sorry if I was being vague earlier
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:03 PM   #14
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I don't think I follow, I doubt beats, length and rate will affect the audio, but I could be wrong. Maybe you
could explain a little more, all the steps required to make that work.
Hi tod,
Not much to explain.....you split the audio item at the one of the verse, then add a tempo marker change on that one ..and....rate changes. In time. I just tried it to make sure I wasn't dreaming:-) as long as the timebase is correct.

That's the way its always been.

Edit...this would work for op as long as the original recordings were done to a straight click.
If we are talking about after the fact tempo manipulation testing thru the recording process of this song, well, all bets are off:-)

Last edited by LugNut; 03-01-2018 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:22 PM   #15
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Hi tod,
Not much to explain.....you split the audio item at the one of the verse, then add a tempo marker change on that one ..and....rate changes. In time. I just tried it to make sure I wasn't dreaming:-) as long as the timebase is correct.

That's the way its always been.
Hi Lug,

thanks for checking, that's what I have done for the intro, verse and chorus and all is well except when I try and add the clean section it just goes haywire
Lug, when you did it, did you set your timebase to TIME? I don't think I did that, I will check tonite
There are two options that I recall timebase for items and timebase for tempo?
Should I change those to TIME?
oh I'm recording one section at a time if that helps any

Last edited by reapermusic; 03-01-2018 at 02:26 PM. Reason: added more info
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:23 PM   #16
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ha! Sorry guys...Tod I think I have confused myself with my own wording LOL
What I have so far is 3 separate audio tracks... an INTRO,VERSE and CHORUS...all audio tracks recorded using amp sim plugins.
I have placed time signature markers in the beginning of every part....all is well up until I try to record another section and that's when it goes wonky for me.So everything is going smoothly and the click is changing where it should except for when I get to the next section which should be a clean part at 130BPM's It seems the entire song just goes off and is no longer in time with the click but it only happens when I try and add that clean section...everything prior to that is spot on.
So these aren't pre-recorded tracks, You've got what, an intro and verse recorded, now you want to record
the chorus, please explain?

What tempo were the previous measures comming up to where you want to change to 130BPM?

Quote:
at 130BPM's It seems the entire song just goes off and is no longer in time with the click but it only happens when I try and add that clean section...everything prior to that is spot on.
So everything is still okay up to where you want to change to 130BPM, even after you changed that position
to 130BPM? Or does the part before the 130BPM change go off too?

Quote:
What I have so far is 3 separate audio tracks... an INTRO,VERSE and CHORUS...all audio tracks recorded using amp sim plugins.
When you say you have 3 tracks, an INTRO,VERSE and CHORUS, does that mean you recorded the INTRO on
1 track, the VERSE on 1 track, and the Chorus on one track?
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:39 PM   #17
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So these aren't pre-recorded tracks, You've got what, an intro and verse recorded, now you want to record
the chorus, please explain?

What tempo were the previous measures comming up to where you want to change to 130BPM?



So everything is still okay up to where you want to change to 130BPM, even after you changed that position
to 130BPM? Or does the part before the 130BPM change go off too?



When you say you have 3 tracks, an INTRO,VERSE and CHORUS, does that mean you recorded the INTRO on
1 track, the VERSE on 1 track, and the Chorus on one track?
Hi Tod,

I'm recording as I go....these are not prerecorded tracks.
I have so far recorded an Intro, verse and chorus..they are all on their own separate tracks as you mentioned INTRO track 1, Verse track 2, chorus track 3 ect......yes everything is perfectly fine up to where I want to change to 130BPM. I recorded the INTRO at 130BPM, the verse at 150BPM, the chorus at 150BPM and now I want to record a clean section at 130BPM.
When I add the marker for 130BPM everything before it gets messed up.

I'll mess with it again tonite

Thanks Tod
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi tod,
Not much to explain.....you split the audio item at the one of the verse, then add a tempo marker change on that one ..and....rate changes. In time. I just tried it to make sure I wasn't dreaming:-) as long as the timebase is correct.

That's the way its always been.

Edit...this would work for op as long as the original recordings were done to a straight click.
If we are talking about after the fact tempo manipulation testing thru the recording process of this song, well, all bets are off:-)
I'm sorry LugNut, when I split the audio, then add a tempo change at that split, the the audio does not conform to the new tempo change. You must be talking about something else?
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:51 PM   #19
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Hi Tod,

I'm recording as I go....these are not prerecorded tracks.
I have so far recorded an Intro, verse and chorus..they are all on their own separate tracks as you mentioned INTRO track 1, Verse track 2, chorus track 3 ect......yes everything is perfectly fine up to where I want to change to 130BPM. I recorded the INTRO at 130BPM, the verse at 150BPM, the chorus at 150BPM and now I want to record a clean section at 130BPM.
When I add the marker for 130BPM everything before it gets messed up.
Aah, so adding the marker does change things before it? When you check the preceding tempo markers, have they
changed? They shouldn't have but I ran into a problem too today, when I was experimenting with adding tempo
markers.

What you can try, is insert a tempo marker of 150BPM at the start of the last measure before where the 130BPM
starts. This may allow you to add the 130BPM tempo marker in the right position.

This might be a bug in Reaper.
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:59 PM   #20
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Aah, so adding the marker does change things before it? When you check the preceding tempo markers, have they
changed? They shouldn't have but I ran into a problem too today, when I was experimenting with adding tempo
markers.

What you can try, is insert a tempo marker of 150BPM at the start of the last measure before where the 130BPM
starts. This may allow you to add the 130BPM tempo marker in the right position.

This might be a bug in Reaper.
The preceding tempo markers have not changed but I think I do remember them shifting or moving to a different part of the ruler.

I can't confirm this 100% but will check tonite

Thanks for the idea I will try that too!
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Old 03-01-2018, 08:35 PM   #21
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ok guys, I'm happy to report problem solved!
In my craziness trying different things I had disabled snap to grid and forgot to enable it again.
I was also forgetting to split items at cursor for the new part. I had done it on my other parts though duh!!
Anyway I recorded a bunch of parts after that and everything is working great!

Snap to grid
split items at cursor
insert tempo marker
set it to whatever BPM you like
Voila!

I want to thank you guys for your help!
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Old 03-01-2018, 10:23 PM   #22
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I'm sorry LugNut, when I split the audio, then add a tempo change at that split, the the audio does not conform to the new tempo change. You must be talking about something else?
Hi tod,
You must have your time base settings set to time then. Because its always worked like that here. Beats,length ,rate. I just tested today.

To op...glad you got it sorted.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:36 AM   #23
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Hi tod,
You must have your time base settings set to time then. Because its always worked like that here. Beats,length ,rate. I just tested today.

To op...glad you got it sorted.
After reading this post I too just now opened up my project to confirm.

I too have my time base settings set to Beats,rate,length

I also have the time base for tempo set at Beats also

Thanks guys
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:03 AM   #24
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Hi tod,
You must have your time base settings set to time then. Because its always worked like that here. Beats,length ,rate. I just tested today.

To op...glad you got it sorted.
Okay LugNut, in the back of my mind I thought you were right, so I tried it again today with a fresh project, and
it indeed did change the tempo of the audio. I don't normally change tempo like that, so yesterday when I
couldn't make it happen, I was confused. Ha ha, the more I think about it, I don't think I've ever
changed the tempo like that, simply because that's what happens when you do.

What I think happened, is that somehow that test project got corrupted. I even submitted a bug report yesterday,
thinking my latest Reaper install had bugs, and it actually may have. You can check it out with the link below.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=203904
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