REAPER's autosave/backup system has fatal flaws, time to fix them!

[MrJones]

REAPER's autosave/backup system has a few fatal flaws that continue to bite me. Why have your system so crippled if it's actually there and working fine in theory? You should really fix the following issues with it:

1. Enable it per default This should be a no-brainer. People will think of turning it on *after* they had their first major crash and already lost quite some data. Why have them run into that in the first place?

2. Unsaved projects need auto-save too This has bitten me a few times badly when I had sudden ideas, started with them in a creative flow without thinking of anything around me and then suddenly crash - and I haven't thought to save once. Now if REAPER had a smarter auto-save system that also took care of projects that never were saved before, this wouldn't have been an issue.

3. Warn me if a newer backup file to a project I'm opening is available I have multiple times opened an outdated project file after a crash because I was kinda lost in thoughts, and lost some progress that was actually available in a backup file, and noticed only much later. A simple dialog could have saved me.

4. Present me unsaved crashed backup saves of all projects on startup Again, much simpler open-source apps like Audacity are able to do this and prompt me at start if there is stuff to restore, so why can't REAPER do the same?

In general the save system requires way too much thought of the user to enable it, keep its presence in mind and actually check for newer backup saves, remember they had something crashing before, ...

[Coachz]

Not fatal. Items 2,3 and 4 are for dumb lazy users. I only need limit to number of backups saved. 1 is a good idea.

[KevinW]

I like all 5 of these ideas. Of course, if I wasn't so lazy, I could just delete all the backups I don't need.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Not fatal. Items 2,3 and 4 are for dumb lazy users. I only need limit to number of backups saved. 1 is a good idea.

Well who isn't occasionally dumb. That is why a *good* backup system is useful. Also it's not that much cheaper software like Audacity wouldn't do all of this - it's kind of surprising REAPER doesn't bother.

If you think all those options would create too many backups, adding some automatic removal (that is also enabled per default) if you exceed like 200 backups for a song would be the sensible solution IMHO.

[Coachz]

First thing i do when i open reaper is save a project with a name. It isnt hard or illogical.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by Coachz

First thing i do when i open reaper is save a project with a name. It isnt hard or illogical.

Well that is nice for you. Now how exactly is that relevant for the fact that other users sometimes forget that? Not everyone can be perfect, that is what a backup system is for.

Edit: also other free software like LibreOffice, Audacity and others provides automatic auto-enabled backups including for unsaved documents/projects, so it's not that this would be anything new or a dramatic new feature - it's just the standard already set by many other projects.

[axel_ef]

Originally Posted by MrJones

2. Unsaved projects need auto-save too ...

use 'Prompt to save on new Project'

[Fergler]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Not fatal. Items 2,3 and 4 are for dumb lazy users. I only need limit to number of backups saved. 1 is a good idea.

It's a backup system for a reason. The not-dumb, not-lazy users don't even need this system. In lieu of modesty, I haven't used a backup file for anything in quite a while.

I agree with all the ideas by the OP, they are smart. I especially agree with autosaving unsaved projects, with the file being saved to the Reaper Media folder.

Upon properly saving a file, the autosaves would be removed.

Originally Posted by axel_ef

use 'Prompt to save on new Project'

This does not address the actual request, which is to create autosaves of an unsaved project (such as if the user ignored that prompt).

[Coachz]

The user is an idiot if they ignore the prompt!

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Coachz

The user is an idiot if they ignore the prompt!

These FR's make sense in a world where a significant number of users are idiots, and/or where the rest of them still occasionally does idiotic things.

Re: FR (2) for auto-saving unsaving projects: on OS X, with autosave and versions, this even seems to the default mode of operation for applications nowadays, courtesy of OS-level features - not only is the user allowed to be an idiot, that goes for application developers as well. While I do realize that REAPER's cross-platform nature may imply that it's not going to happen any day soon, I'd much rather have REAPER implement support for this feature on OS X than reinvent yet another wheel.

For FR (4), one may also point to examples of competitive applications like Ableton Live which present the user with (more or less) useful dialogs for restoring sessions (i.e. projects) after a crash. (From personal experience I can tell that such a feature may also be the *cause* of crashes itself, though. But that's an implementation issue, it doesn't invalidate the idea.)

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Not fatal. Items 2,3 and 4 are for dumb lazy users. I only need limit to number of backups saved. 1 is a good idea.

Disagree.

These are all very good ideas, and a user's intelligence doesn't come into it.

Originally Posted by Coachz

The user is an idiot if they ignore the prompt!

Nope.

I often want to open up reaper to do something specific that I do not want a project for - bouncing out a test file, quick AB listen etc. etc. So, I have prompt to save new project on load *off* because it makes my life easier. If something crashed during such work, it would be very convenient to have an autosaved version of the RPP in a temporary folder.

Originally Posted by Banned

not only is the user allowed to be an idiot, that goes for application developers as well.

Indeed, this isn't about protecting 'dumb users' from themselves, it's about an auto save/backup system that has our backs more often than it does now. How is that a bad thing? The OP is right, there are some holes which could be patched up

So +1 to the OP; make some feature requests in the appropriate place and link to them in your first post here and I'll vote for them.

[Coachz]

We could rename Reaper to StupiDAW

Prompt says save project, hit cancel then get mad you didn't save it.

Originally Posted by Banned

These FR's make sense in a world where a significant number of users are idiots, and/or where the rest of them still occasionally does idiotic things.

Re: FR (2) for auto-saving unsaving projects: on OS X, with autosave and versions, this even seems to the default mode of operation for applications nowadays, courtesy of OS-level features - not only is the user allowed to be an idiot, that goes for application developers as well. While I do realize that REAPER's cross-platform nature may imply that it's not going to happen any day soon, I'd much rather have REAPER implement support for this feature on OS X than reinvent yet another wheel.

For FR (4), one may also point to examples of competitive applications like Ableton Live which present the user with (more or less) useful dialogs for restoring sessions (i.e. projects) after a crash. (From personal experience I can tell that such a feature may also be the *cause* of crashes itself, though. But that's an implementation issue, it doesn't invalidate the idea.)

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by Coachz

We could rename Reaper to StupiDAW

Prompt says save project, hit cancel then get mad you didn't save it.

I get that you think the enhancements aren't strictly necessary for you. But how an industry standard backup system is dumbing down anything is beyond me. It's just expected functionality for a professional software and it doesn't hurt you or limit you in any way. If you don't like backups, turn them off.

[Fergler]

This proposed backup system insults my intelligence, therefore I don't want it. Seriously?

Originally Posted by timelloyd

I often want to open up reaper to do something specific that I do not want a project for - bouncing out a test file, quick AB listen etc. etc. So, I have prompt to save new project on load *off* because it makes my life easier. If something crashed during such work, it would be very convenient to have an autosaved version of the RPP in a temporary folder.

On point.

[MrJones]

I put them into the tracker now:

FR 1: Auto-save should be enabled per default

FR 2: Unsaved projects need auto-save too

FR 3: Warn me if a newer backup file to a project I'm opening is available

FR 4: Present me unsaved crashed backup saves of all projects on startup

[Coachz]

Do you propose that every time you open reaper it makes a new project and starts saving ? And then you have to manage all the files it's going to automatically create ?

Originally Posted by MrJones

I get that you think the enhancements aren't strictly necessary for you. But how an industry standard backup system is dumbing down anything is beyond me. It's just expected functionality for a professional software and it doesn't hurt you or limit you in any way. If you don't like backups, turn them off.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Do you propose that every time you open reaper it makes a new project and starts saving ?

Yes, that is the point of it.

Originally Posted by Coachz

And then you have to manage all the files it's going to automatically create ?

Preferably, there would be some option to auto-remove very old backup files.

However, what specifically do you mean by manage? I have auto-backup enabled each 2-3 minutes for all of my (saved) projects and of course that created thousands (probably ten thousands as of now) of backup files - but so far it adds up to just a few gigabyte. I have this setting for years, I never went to delete any of it. One day I might have to, and then I'll just wipe the backup files, and I'll be set for another few years. I'll gladly accept doing this minimal amount of work once every few years to have a working backup system.

Also, nobody is opposing an option to turn it off as it is already possible right now.

[Coachz]

Basically if you are going to automatically start saving files there needs to be a workflow to remove them somehow because a 'few gigabytes' is a lot and I don't care how many terabytes you have.

[serr]

Yeah, I'll never make any mistake on the computer. Backups are for wimps! Got your OS system drive cloned? Bigger wimp!

Or something...


The temper tantrum I'd likely throw if I even lost a minute of work would likely get the police called!

I'd certainly like to see the backup system get automated project subfolder creating and using features. That's the root of the complaint right? In the same way that we just got features for creating a media subfolder of the parent project folder.

But for now, I just go with the current feature set and keep a 'one size fits all' backup folder on a drive with Reaper pointed to it (preference setting) and saving a new backup rpp file every 2 minutes. It's a preference setting which makes it global for any/all projects weather they've been saved 100 times or zero. I have it time/date stamp the filename. "untitled-2015-04-06_1051.rpp-bak" is pretty easy to work with and find - for an example of an autosave from an as yet unsaved project.

So for now, keep a general folder for backups and point Reaper to it on day 1. You'll always have that backup even if you never did your first 'save as' with the project.

Operator error sucks!

[ivansc]

And of course none of this matters until and unless this feature request actually gets some traction with the devs.
I can see where this WOULD be a useful thing to have (the default auto backup of un-named files especially) provided it was user-selectable.

But there again, it IS pretty darn hard to miss the "do you want fries with that?" box every time you go to close a project without saving it, isn`t it?

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by ivansc

But there again, it IS pretty darn hard to miss the "do you want fries with that?" box every time you go to close a project without saving it, isn`t it?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The use case is jamming on a new project for hours while forgetting to save, and then having a crash. The save prompt on quit is nice and useful, but absolutely irrelevant for that specific situation. (assuming you are talking about the backups for unsaved projects thing)

[foxAsteria]

I think it's silly that reaper doesn't bother prompting to open the last backup file when there's been a crash. doesn't pretty much every other daw ever do that?

[Jae.Thomas]

it is neither stupid nor lazy to ask for autosave of unsaved projects. Who the hell saves everything right away?

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

it is neither stupid nor lazy to ask for autosave of unsaved projects.

you guys know you can do that right? you just have to enable the "additional directory" in prefs > project, i believe.

i do agree it's not well set up, as i'd prefer to keep my backups in the project directory. can't have both for some reason.

[serr]

Reaper does in fact autosave unsaved projects. Just tested it again to be sure. This one we already have.

But you do have to have autosave enabled and it is disabled by default. Kinda hard to defend that default.

Reaper has a few backwards default preferences like this. Like who thought it was a good idea to have ctrl-click / right-click disabled by default? There's menus to see there ya know!

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by MrJones

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The use case is jamming on a new project for hours while forgetting to save, and then having a crash. The save prompt on quit is nice and useful, but absolutely irrelevant for that specific situation. (assuming you are talking about the backups for unsaved projects thing)

My feeble attempt to lighten up this somewhat tense thread.
I thought it was obvious I was talking about the popup"Unsaved project" prompt window.

*sigh*

P.S. You mention crashes like it is a routine occurrence for you. I can't remember the last time Reaper crashed for me. What are you doing that makes crashes a real possibility?

Curious to know, is all.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by ivansc

P.S. You mention crashes like it is a routine occurrence for you. I can't remember the last time Reaper crashed for me. What are you doing that makes crashes a real possibility?

Curious to know, is all.

Yes, that is correct. The reason is simple:

East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra cannot be run with bridging because 1. it's a huge performance hog and bridging it makes it worse, 2. it's a sensitive stupid thing which misbehaves (odd timing errors even on final render and other unacceptable behavior) and crashes more when bridged.

Because at the same time it also does like to crash occasionally, it will obviously bring down REAPER with it since I'm not running it in any sort of bridging/sandbox mode due to above reasons.

Also I recently read iLok's driver likes to make software misbehave and crash because it's so intrusive (which East West software uses as well).
--

So the reason is: East West. Sound is amazing, technically it's very questionable IMHO. (I recommend buying Kontakt instead, but I already put the money in..)

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

you guys know you can do that right? you just have to enable the "additional directory" in prefs > project, i believe.

i do agree it's not well set up, as i'd prefer to keep my backups in the project directory. can't have both for some reason.

nice it works

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

nice it works

haha, yea, i'm kinda amazed how you got through most of the last decade without it! i'da gone nuts, scatterbrain that i am...

Originally Posted by MrJones

East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra cannot be run with bridging

does it run standalone? if so you ought to consider using rearoute/loopmidi to get the audio and/or midi from it to reaper. loopmidi would allow you multiple virtual midi ports if you needed more than 16 channels and rearoute (need to check the box for rearoute asio in the reaper installer) is kinda like rewire. it would need to be selected as the asio device in EWQLSO.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

haha, yea, i'm kinda amazed how you got through most of the last decade without it! i'da gone nuts, scatterbrain that i am...

I do try and save often, even new projects...

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

I do try and save often, even new projects...

well there's no substitute for good habits, that's for sure.

[ivansc]

Ah! So it isn't Reapers fault this is happening.
Reminded me why I dumped what little EW play-based stuff I had a long time ago.

Doesnt really matter how good - sounding a plug is if it doesn't run properly.

I dumped most of IKMMs stuff and all the Play libraries I had purely because of this.

And your info on iLok issues is out of date.
All working fine here and has been for some time.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by ivansc

And your info on iLok issues is out of date.
All working fine here and has been for some time.

I gave my source above, a post from 2014. Where do you take your info from? Also I talked to the Tone 2 devs just a few days ago, and according to them nothing has changed.

Maybe iLok used to be even worse, I don't know about that. It's bad enough these days though, since apparently it messes around with unrelated software still.

Sadly, EWQLSO is still one of the cheapest good-sounding orchestral libs around. Once I have a bigger budget, I'll probably move on as well.

[ivansc]

My source is ME as an iLok user.

I dont have any issues and if you investigate a little further in the gearslutz thread that seems to have initiated all the "don't use the latest iLok software!!!!" you will see that it only vr affected a tiny minority of the userbase.

You may have a source, but I and others have our personal experience to base opinions on.
Have you, personally, experienced any issues with iLok that were provably PACE's fault? I am no fan of iLok at all, but in fairness to them it does generally work just fine for the vast majority of users.

P.S. I tried to access your 2014 link but the site insists I register which I'm not about to do.

Here is a link to what at the time was apparently a problem for some iLok users. I downloaded and used the software at that time & had no problems.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/musi...tware+problems

If you do what I did and search GS for iLok problems you will find a ton of hits, most of which are either problems with something OTHER than the iLok or problems with the chunk of meat in front of the screen.


Forgot to ask - do you have/had an iLok and do you have/had issues which can be legitimately attributed to it?

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by MrJones

I get that you think the enhancements aren't strictly necessary for you. But how an industry standard backup system is dumbing down anything is beyond me. It's just expected functionality for a professional software and it doesn't hurt you or limit you in any way. If you don't like backups, turn them off.

You should buy a Mac. Really. Seems like a perfect marriage to me.

It backs up every document you create or open, even if you don't save it. If you have Time Machine enabled, it'll backup to your TM disk. But it 'll always backup in the background to your iCloud account.

I hate it to the point I've ripped it out...

[PitchSlap]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

you guys know you can do that right? you just have to enable the "additional directory" in prefs > project, i believe.

i do agree it's not well set up, as i'd prefer to keep my backups in the project directory. can't have both for some reason.

Actually, you can have both. Which means I get an extra 100GB in another directory to delete every other month.

All of the suggestions in the OP are great, because they are all things that DAWs that pride themselves on user-friendliness have been doing for years.

Even if Reaper could catch up to Word97 in the autosave/backup department it would be a major improvement!

The only thing I can assume is none of the developers use the auto-save feature or ever have crashes, or they would've addressed this out of their own sense of frustration ages ago.

[Catesby]

+1 to the OP here. all good ideas.

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by PitchSlap

Actually, you can have both.

Well by both I meant 1. save backups the project folder and 2. auto-save new projects in the specified directory. can't do that without those doubled backups you mention.


Ideally (imo)Reaper should have the option to use the additional directory only until the project gets manually saved somewhere, then start putting the backups there.

[reyewi]

Originally Posted by Coachz

We could rename Reaper to StupiDAW

Prompt says save project, hit cancel then get mad you didn't save it.

Why are you flaming anyone here in the forums? This is not what we are here for. If you feel someone is making a stupid suggestion keep it to yourself. I for one agree that perfecting the autosave is a good idea. I'm a professional Information System Engineer for 23 years, I can tell you about stupid users. This suggestion is in no shape or form "stupid" and Reaper will not be considered a stupdiDaw. It will actually be considered an intelligent DAW. Relax man.

[Lawrence]

It makes perfect sense to tell / ask a user... "There is a newer version of this file, would you like to open it?" ... which is why some software does exactly that.

Sometimes you work on a song and for some reason (crash, whatever) your last auto save is the newest file, the file with the most work in it. Why wouldn't any modern software know that and load it for you if you say "Yes", instead of making you go manually look for files to compare date and time stamps?

It's kind of a no-brainer really since the entire root purpose of software is to make things easier.

If a developer isn't doing that (which probably isn't rocket science) then maybe it's the developer who is lazy, not the user.