Old 06-18-2014, 05:29 AM   #1
Doc Brown
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
Default Reaper and High Resolution Midi?

Hey all.

Does anyone know if Reaper supports 14 bit midi? Also does anyone know if Reaper uses host automation for midi parameter control? Using hardware for Reaper is sufficient but using course 7 bit parameter control for software instruments is horrible. 0-127 isn't exactly a buttery smooth filter sweep.

Does anyone know if it's on the slate for Reaper 5 if it's not already an option I'm not aware of? I searched some Reaper docs and my manual but couldn't find anything.

Doc
Doc Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2014, 07:01 AM   #2
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
Default

It does support 14-bit MIDI CC lanes. See MIDI editor.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2014, 08:54 AM   #3
Doc Brown
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It does support 14-bit MIDI CC lanes. See MIDI editor.
Hey ED

I guess my question is if I built (or bought) a 14 bit midi controller to control a soft synth like Diva and I assigned parameters one at a time using Reapers native parameter learn feature to assign knobs and sliders would I be getting true 14 bit resolution?

I don't believe the Doepfer or Livid Instruments midi interfaces support 14 bit midi but in my research I couldn't definitively say either way so I suppose they don't?

My goal is to build a couple of dedicated midi controllers that are perfect clones (at least as much as I could realistically map to hardware) for soft synths that I use the most but it seems like the best I'm going to get right now is 7 bit resolution which sucks for synths.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
Doc Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2014, 07:06 PM   #4
Doc Brown
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
Default

Bump. Bump
Doc Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:43 AM   #5
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

If I understand your question correctly, then answer is no.

MIDI Learn for a plug-in parameter learns only the second CC message number (the "LSB") message). I just tried it by editing one of the 14-bit CC message lanes in a MIDI clip, injecting the messages into the automation path (using Jeffos's plug-in) and seeing what was learned by a subsequent FX.

It sounds like an FR for the MIDI Learn window is needed:
  • a check-box to expect 2 CC messages, for 14-bit resolution (does the plug-in tell Reaper is a parameter is 14-bit resolution? if so, that could control the display oh the new check box),
  • manual selection of the MIDI channel and the MIDI CC message number(s) (that would making MIDI Learning without a keyboard controller much easier in all cases).
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 02:57 AM   #6
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

You can use pitch bend messages to get 14bit control, but unless you adress multiple devices via Preferences -> Contol Surfaces) you're stuck with a maximum of 16 controllers that way, because Reaper doesn't distinguish between MIDI ports for the control path.

In case of knobs (as opposed to faders) for control, you should think about using endless rotaries sending increment/decrement instead of absolute knobs sending discrete values anyway. These are able to utilize whatever resolution your controlled parameter has and avoid value jumps (without needing motors to set themselves to the current value of the controlled parameter or clutchy workarounds like soft takeover).

That said, a checkbox to expect 2 messages for 14bit would cater for simple 14bit pairs, but still be half-assed because it wouldn't allow to use NRPN messages which can be as much as 4 messages, first pair to distinguish messages and second pair to transmit 14bit values or individual in- and decrement. There's a bunch of control surfaces out there which allow for relative control only via NRPN. Here's a thread where we try to trick Reaper into listening to them with only partial success: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...96#post1328696
I think if Reaper's control system is to be improved (which it should be) it should cater for this situation as well (and allow for individual MIDI ports for the parameter learn system).
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 04:49 AM   #7
Doc Brown
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
Default

Thanks gofer and dark.

I was looking forward to making a couple of dedicated controllers for soft synths but it appears they would be a half assed attempt due to lack of proper resolution and integration. It also looks like the Doepfer and Livid Instruments interfaces are only 7 bit. Not acceptable for proper tweaking of synth parameters.

I am basically getting virtual fatigue. I'm tired of staring at a screen and using a mouse. Virtual overload. I'm just going to have to buy a poly synth and be done with it.

Maybe with the upcoming HD midi protocol we can have a totally different conversation a couple years from now.
Doc Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 07:04 AM   #8
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

Anyone know of DAWs that do support high-resolution MIDI automation?

Add which plug-ins make use of it? For what?
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2015, 03:16 AM   #9
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
Default

I just bought a high-end VST instrument (Sample Modeling SWAM Flutes) and a high end hardware controller (TEC BBC). I use them for live playing with Reaper as a VST host.

Even though IMHO it would be very appropriate to link them with high resolution MIDI messages, neither of them supports this .

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2015, 03:41 AM   #10
Mink99
Human being with feelings
 
Mink99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
Default

Bcf2000 and bcr2000 support 14 bit cc and nrpn messages in native mode.... Relative & absolute
Mink99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2015, 06:57 AM   #11
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Brown View Post
My goal is to build a couple of dedicated midi controllers that are perfect clones (at least as much as I could realistically map to hardware) for soft synths that I use the most but it seems like the best I'm going to get right now is 7 bit resolution which sucks for synths.

Any thoughts?
Use REAPER's OSC Control Surface feature and convert OSC to/from 14-bit MIDI using an external tool like OSCII-bot. I do this all the time whenever I use REAPER, and it works just fine (the main drawback of this method may be that you can't easily remap the order of parameters). And, fwiw, I also use plain 14-bit MIDI CC pairs with plug-ins that support it, such as u-he's DIVA, without converting to/from OSC.

Alternatively, you may consider using another application that is more capable than REAPER in this respect, such as Ableton Live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Brown View Post
Maybe with the upcoming HD midi protocol we can have a totally different conversation a couple years from now.
Nah, there's not much need for that. You can just switch to a more capable host right now, use the available workarounds for REAPER, or wait for REAPER to implement better support for the 30+ year old plain MIDI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Anyone know of DAWs that do support high-resolution MIDI automation?
Basically, every DAW that supports MIDI also supports at least recording and playback of high-resolution MIDI - unless they mess it up with automatic value smoothing / interpolation (for example, Bitwig Studio is useless for this purpose - but its native controller scripting feature does allow 14-bit CCs to be converted to/from automation, in a much easier manner than REAPER does).

The more important question, imho, is if an application offers an easy workflow for mapping parameters to 14-bit controls, and for editing 14-bit control data.

REAPER does support integrated editing of 14-bit CC pairs (and of course, ReaControlMIDI can be used to generate 14-bit MIDI from automation envelopes), but still does not support 'learning' 14-bit MIDI CC pairs.

In contrast, for example, Ableton Live does support 'learning' 14-bit CC pairs, and also provides 'feedback', which is still completely missing in REAPER for learned' control bindings. In other words: Ableton Live totally kicks REAPER's ass for this purpose. Or is that only a half ass?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Add which plug-ins make use of it? For what?
For example, all of u-he's plug-ins support 14-bit CCs for every parameter that can be mapped to MIDI controls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
It sounds like an FR for the MIDI Learn window is needed:
  • a check-box to expect 2 CC messages, for 14-bit resolution (does the plug-in tell Reaper is a parameter is 14-bit resolution? if so, that could control the display oh the new check box),
  • manual selection of the MIDI channel and the MIDI CC message number(s) (that would making MIDI Learning without a keyboard controller much easier in all cases).
^ There's a FR already, please vote if you haven't yet!

A checkbox isn't required for the typical case, as simply seeing corresponding LSB and MSB CC messages (i.e. message with CC number between 0 and 31, and another message with CC number exactly 32 higher) within a very short time frame should suffice.

The point about whether parameters "tell REAPER" that they support a 14-bit MIDI resolution is nonsense, as afaik, all (VST, AU) plug-in parameters support 32-bit floating point resolution.

A possibility for manual configuration would indeed be useful, I agree, but then it would not be a 'learn' function anymore, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Here's a thread where we try to trick Reaper into listening to them with only partial success: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...96#post1328696
How is that "only partial success"? Afaik that workaround does everything that is required to use 14-bit (N)RPN messages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I just bought a high-end VST instrument (Sample Modeling SWAM Flutes) and a high end hardware controller (TEC BBC). I use them for live playing with Reaper as a VST host.

Even though IMHO it would be very appropriate to link them with high resolution MIDI messages, neither of them supports this .
I have never heard of a TEC BBC controller device, but if its features are already outperformed by a cheap generic controller like Behringer's BCF/BCR-2000, "high end" seems a bit of a misnomer.

And for a VST that's basically just a sample player, I don't really see a need for using 14-bit resolution. What parameters, if any, would benefit from increased resolution over 7-bit?
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2015, 09:15 AM   #12
Mink99
Human being with feelings
 
Mink99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
Default

The bbc is a wind controller, like the akais, not a remote like the bcr... For dedicated articulation I see the use of 14 bit cc. Unfortunately the bbc does not provide this.

At least to follow the procedures and rituals, let us put this into the current "midi hall of shame thread"

And into the reaper6 midi thread
And into the reaper7 midi thread

Last edited by Mink99; 06-04-2015 at 12:01 PM.
Mink99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 06:06 PM   #13
Doc Brown
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
Default

So Reaper 5 supports 14 bit midi messages now is that correct?
Doc Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 03:45 AM   #14
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned View Post
I have never heard of a TEC BBC controller device, but if its features are already outperformed by a cheap generic controller like Behringer's BCF/BCR-2000, "high end" seems a bit of a misnomer. And for a VST that's basically just a sample player, I don't really see a need for using 14-bit resolution. What parameters, if any, would benefit from increased resolution over 7-bit?
The BBC is as Breath controller. Not a slider device
The Swam Flute is not a sample instrument but a physical modeling software. When controlling the sound by breath pressure, you can easily do more that 128 relevant steps.

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 03:52 AM   #15
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Brown View Post
So Reaper 5 supports 14 bit midi messages now is that correct?
In fact the Reaper engine does not need to explicitly support 14 bit midi CC messages as a 14 bit midi message simply constist of two 7 Bit messages (e.g for "expression" -> CC11 + CC43).

OTOH the VST "ReaMidiControl" that comes with Reaper does support generating these 14 Bit midi messages (from Envelopes) at least since Reaper 4.

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 05:34 AM   #16
Doc Brown
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
In fact the Reaper engine does not need to explicitly support 14 bit midi CC messages as a 14 bit midi message simply constist of two 7 Bit messages (e.g for "expression" -> CC11 + CC43).

OTOH the VST "ReaMidiControl" that comes with Reaper does support generating these 14 Bit midi messages (from Envelopes) at least since Reaper 4.

-Michael

HI Michael

So if I purchased a controller like a Behringer bcr2000 that takes advantage of high res midi and controlled vst parameters with it would Reaper properly utilize the high resolution midi inputs?

For my personal use right now I assign knobs and faders on my Akai mpk88 to synthesizer parameters. Most of those work fine in native 7 bit resolution but sometimes a high resonance filter sweep on the cutoff can produce "stepping" as the knob rotation is fairly coarse at 0-128.

Envelopes and lfo parameters are mostly OK using 7 bit but the big thing is the cutoff knob.
Doc Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 02:14 PM   #17
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Brown View Post
would Reaper properly utilize the high resolution midi inputs?
What do you mean by "Utilize" ?

If you want to just route it to a VST, VSTi or output, Repare does not even need to be aware of the fact you are doing High Res.

If you want to control Reaper Faders or other Reaper controls, I in fact don't know. AFAIK there is a programmable "thingy" that converts Midi CC messages to a standard "OSC" mixer remote control protocol. I don't know if same can do 14 Bits. (So this again is not an issue of the Reaper software itself.)

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.