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Old 04-20-2015, 07:28 AM   #1
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
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Default A noob's adventures in advanced midi - inc msb/lsb, SysEx, Windows, Evo 461C

So this will (hopefully) eventually evolve into a how-to. Edits (more than!!) welcome, as I postulate on what I believe is possible, along with the old what is it, what's it for, what do you need, FAQs...

So I have an MK-461C, and it's got all these faders and controllers, with a 10 bank memory. (Please correct any bad jargon)

I want to be able to quickly load my own custom presets, + backup etc.

The web implies I should be using M-Audio's SysEx Librarian Software, but I can't find it (for PC). I'll start with Enigma (the windows GUI bank-manager from m-audio)

Obviously it needs exclusive device access, but allows me to download the current bank and informs me of what's what in CC mapping world



Q1:When I 'Select (CTRL+A)ll' + (CTRL+C)opy + (Edit > Describe the Clipboard, it tells me I have 34 presets - is that the 'controller count' ? (I count 33 exc. functions+transpose/octave.. I also have the Program button, which might be the same as Bank Select...)

Currently the only CC-assignment feedback data I have is visual via Enigma, albeit poor and inefficient.

Glancing at the Reason Native Preset, I see that F(ader)9 is mapped to master volume 'CTRL (CC) 9'


but the CC volume data I have tells me that should be on CC#7

MIDI CC
7 Volume Control the volume of the channel
MIDI CC
8 Balance Controls the left and right balance, generally for stereo patches.
0 = hard left, 64 = center, 127 = hard right
MIDI CC
9 Undefined

Q2Is this Master Volume CC9 only for Reason?

Each of my numeric keys 0-9 (c24-33) can also be mapped to a CC to 'toggle between two values' with MSB/LSB (any popular/simple/crazy suggested applications?!)

Looking at the faders, my guide's not great re it's legend, I think it's talking about the Controller Off 'function', it says to type '144+' to set.


Similarly with the MIDI Buttons, I think MMC Command and Controller Off require the [144]+] method to set... (*=sysex,**=mmc)



So I've just grabbed Bome's SendSx (as suggested [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GDqqHBKlbE]here[/u])...

Last edited by aspiringSynthesisingAlch; 04-21-2015 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 04-21-2015, 03:01 AM   #2
Lazarus
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What is it you want to do with SysEx and with which synths or devices?
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:29 AM   #3
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
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first re msb/lsb messages I just want to be able to do a bank select

exc.

There are 16,384 banks available, accessible by sending a 14-bit Bank change message. The first 7 bits of this message are sent in a single
byte known as the Bank LSB. The last 7 bits are specified by another byte known as the Bank MSB. The BANK LSB is the most commonly used. This
allows for 128 bank changes, and often there is no need to send a Bank MSB.

"Sending Program, Bank LSB and Bank MSB data is made simple using the Mk-425C/449C/461C. Simply press the PROGRAM, DATA LSB or DATA MSB
button and enter the program or bank change you wish to send"

then I want to experiment with prn/nprn onthefly mapping

I have a glossary, a midi usb controller, some software... and some terrible instructions (for this stuff).
I'd like to understand how folks have implemented things. for example midi reverb?

General MIDI Reverb and Chorus Types
Reverb Types
0: Small Room
1: Medium Room
2: Large Room
3: Medium Hall
4: Large Hall
8: Plate
Chorus Types
0: Chorus 1
1: Chorus 2
2: Chorus 3
3: Chorus 4
4: FB Chorus
5: Flanger

I get that a numeric keypad button can be set to note on/off when pressed/released.

Quote:
Press “CONTROL SELECT” and press the “0” button.
2. Press “CONTROL ASSIGN” and enter ‘147’ this is the MIDI cc number that corresponds to Note on/off mode, as shown
in Appendix B.
3. Press “DATA MSB” twice and enter a value of ‘100’. This means when you press the button, a Note on message will
be sent out with a velocity of 100.
4. Press “DATA LSB” twice, and enter a value of ‘000’. This means when you release the button, a Note off message will
be sent out.
5. Press the “PROGRAM” button twice and enter ‘064’. This will mean you are sending out MIDI note 64 or E4, each time
you press the button. The MIDI note numbers are given in Appendix D
but you can also send out 'values' - can this be velocity OR pitch?
Quote:
The 10 assignable buttons can each be assigned to toggle between two values. You may for instance want to send out value 15 when you first
press the button followed value 74 when you press the button for a second time. This is how you do it:
1. Press the Function button labelled “DATA MSB” 2 times.
2. Type in 15 using the numerical keypad or the +/- keys.
3. Press the Function button labelled “DATA LSB” 2 times.
4. Type in 74 using the numerical keypad or the +/- keys.
If you want the button to send the same value every time you press it, simply type in the same value both times
I can programchange using the program button. I don't get how bankselect cc0 is meant to be implemented.

Last edited by aspiringSynthesisingAlch; 04-21-2015 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:11 AM   #4
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Okay, I think you are confusing "SysEx" with "MIDI message".

What synths/devices are you going to be controlling?
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:13 PM   #5
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
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Yeah I think I jumped the gun with the thread labelling! Opened the advanced guide (evo mk461c), and it throws 'sysex', mmc (which seems understandable for the most part) + prn etc.

So having successfully loaded preset 2 (b4, Native Instuments),modified and stored, my next step is trying to bank select (then maybe prn... Found a good tutorial
On that I'll try later)

Hope that clears it up a bit! Still 'just learning'

So first questions are still what's the VALUE (above quote) - is 74 velocity ? Or pitch? Or whatever ya want!!?

Then it's 'what's all that MSB/LSB Bank Select stuff?'


Thanks
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:24 PM   #6
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http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:07 PM   #7
Lazarus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspiringSynthesisingAlch View Post
Yeah I think I jumped the gun with the thread labelling! Opened the advanced guide (evo mk461c), and it throws 'sysex', mmc (which seems understandable for the most part) + prn etc.

So having successfully loaded preset 2 (b4, Native Instuments),modified and stored, my next step is trying to bank select (then maybe prn... Found a good tutorial
On that I'll try later)

Hope that clears it up a bit! Still 'just learning'

So first questions are still what's the VALUE (above quote) - is 74 velocity ? Or pitch? Or whatever ya want!!?

Then it's 'what's all that MSB/LSB Bank Select stuff?'


Thanks
The 74 will be the value attached to whatever the button is programmed to send. The block quote misses out what the button does, how you came to be editing it etc. Value normally means velocity or CC value though.

Re the MSB/LSB bank select, a bunch of CCs (including bank select) have LSB counterparts. Whether use of the LSB is implemented or not is down to whoever wrote whatever you are sending MIDI to. This is kind of important because just because something is written in the MIDI spec, doesn't mean that it's implemented in the device/synth you are using.

This is quite important because if you aren't using anything that supports 14 bit Bank Select or any of the other CC pairs then CC32 and the rest of the LSB CCs will still be available as ordinary CCs to use to control stuff.
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Old 05-15-2015, 05:32 AM   #8
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
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Default further info (still) required - 461c step-by-step?

Hi, thanks for this, especially Lazarus. very well expressed.

Just been looking at the MIDI message link, trying to 'get' messages- MIDI CC, MMC? , SysEx, OSC... specially how messages are 'sent'/programmed on the 461C, if there's any rules on which msgTypes are for which scenarios, etc...

I know (think!) that cc no. 'x' can be set to any controller, and mapped to any function, but wondered if there's any guidelines on like intended use...

a breath controller might have originally been for controlling wind instruments...

there's portamento (5-pitch sliding, I think)...
pan (10) is an obvious one...

then some generic (11-expression controller, 16+ - general purpose controllers) and loads undefined...


Re Bank Select
32 00100000 20 LSB for Control 0 (Bank Select) 0-127 LSB

It's reading the guide that's confusing me, with 'instructions' like

Quote:
There are 16,384 banks available, accessible by sending a 14-bit Bank change message. The first 7 bits of this message are sent in a single
byte known as the Bank LSB. The last 7 bits are specified by another byte known as the Bank MSB. The BANK LSB is the most commonly used. This
allows for 128 bank changes, and often there is no need to send a Bank MSB.

"Sending Program, Bank LSB and Bank MSB data is made simple using the Mk-425C/449C/461C. Simply press the PROGRAM, DATA LSB or DATA MSB
button and enter the program or bank change you wish to send"


the fine/coarse PRN/NPRN (132-135) is a perfect illustration.. am I programming the values and the function, or do I map the function and the send the values (whilst sending the message) using +/- or the numeric pad?

another example q!
what do you use 'Feedback' (142) for ('typically', if at all)??

T H A N K S
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:22 AM   #9
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
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Default midi messages - start 'here'?!

So I've acquired some more MIDI kit, but I still have no clue re all the midi message, channel messages etc.

Reading eddie's amazing guides (http://goo.gl/kpteHd), especially the glossary, I'm getting the jist, ie what a control change message IS, but, trying to program this stuff on my evo, or even work out which software to use to 'oberserve' MIDI messages in transit... I'm still head scratching!

"Program & Bank Changes Explained
The original GM MIDI specification catered for only 128 voices, numbered from 0-127. It is possible to access a different voice by sending a program
change.
In order to expand on the GM set of voices, Bank changes were devised. Each bank contains 128 patches, that can be accessed using a program
change. There are 16,384 banks available, accessible by sending a 14-bit Bank change message. The first 7 bits of this message are sent in a single
byte known as the Bank LSB. The last 7 bits are specified by another byte known as the Bank MSB. The BANK LSB is the most commonly used. This
allows for 128 bank changes, and often there is no need to send a Bank MSB.
You will find almost all MIDI devices respond to the program change, but some that do not conform to the GM set of voices use the program change
message for other purposes. Many VST instruments have adopted this approach, allowing you to use a program change to change the instrument
patch. The FM7 by Native Instruments is a good example of this.
Bank changes are more rarely used, although they do exist. Bank changes are useful in manufacturer’s extensions to the MIDI specification, such
as Roland’s GS specification and Yamaha’s XG specification. Both of these require you to specify a Bank change, in order to access the extra voices
and effects that these specifications provide.
Sending Program, Bank LSB and Bank MSB data is made simple using the Mk-425C/449C/461C. Simply press the PROGRAM, DATA LSB or DATA MSB
button and enter the program or bank change you wish to send."

So... now we have lots of banks of patches, so we can't "just" do a ProgramChange (PC). So we send one of these 14-bit bank changes... erm, how, when/why?

For more confusion... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98pDRXvyG48

Is a Bank change what Bank Select 00 (Standard MIDI CC) and 32 Bank Select LSB are used for?

Last edited by aspiringSynthesisingAlch; 12-18-2015 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 12-18-2015, 03:42 PM   #10
aspiringSynthesisingAlch
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Default finally! some clarity!

Ok, found a great toddler's guide for MIDI - http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media...cus01_midi.pdf


Bank Select overview is kinda useful,

Bank Selects
As we noted earlier, Program Changes allow you to select sounds within
the current sound bank. Many instruments, however, have more than 128
sounds, and therefore offer multiple sound banks. Bank Select Control
Change messages, or simply “Bank Selects,” allow you to choose different
banks within the receiving MIDI device.
In fact, a full Program Change message includes the Bank Select MSB and
LSB values that choose the desired sound’s bank, and then the Program
Change value for the sound itself within the bank. The message therefore
has five elements, sent in the following order:
1 CC #0—the Bank Select MSB Control Change message
2 the MSB value—for the sound bank you want
3 CC #32—the Bank Select LSB Control Change message
4 the LSB value—for the sound bank you want
5 the Program Change number—for the desired sound within the nowselected
bank.

Also found a copy of the Evo 461C getting started guide, so gonna pick some basic stuff and do it step by step, any q's I'll raise in separate threads.

Thanks to everyone that's helped
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