Old 10-30-2011, 10:46 AM   #1
BuckNutz1070
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Just curious...but when you record into Reaper, do you record completely "Dry"...or "Wet?" If you in fact record a little bit "Wet"...what do you generally record with? I run through a DigiTech RP-155, using X-Edit to adjust my effects. If you run completely "Dry"...what VST's do you prefer? Just so you know...I generally play Classic Rock...80's Rock...and some New Rock Music!! Thanks...\m/ \m/

Matt
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Old 10-30-2011, 12:32 PM   #2
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I record dry but monitor through SimulAnalog Guitar Suite - JCM for distorted tones and Twin for cleans. Then when I'm satisfied with the tracking, I replace it with Guitar Rig 4.
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Old 10-30-2011, 02:31 PM   #3
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I usually record my guitars "wet" , mostly...

Because I make my sound according the arrangement, so I spend some more time to individuate which efx>amp>cab chain sounds better in the song I'm working on and print it as is.
I try to work "old school", every song has its own guitar sound from the start and my efforts are stronger and my playing more precise if I know I'll not put my hands on it... after.

Various chain/stuff depending on mood, attitude...
direct guitar to the audio card (with a pre inside) and Acmerbag-Lepou-Boogex amp sims or
Vox Amplug and virtual cabinets (brilliant)

no metal here, tho
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Old 10-30-2011, 02:42 PM   #4
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Hmmmmmm?? Thanks for responding!! Very interesting, and intriguing positions!! I like it...\m/\ m/ I tend to lean to the "Wetter" side myself, but I can see where the "Dry" would come into play as well. I'm still trying to learn all of Reapers capabilities, in terms of recording. I play a lot of other things as well...but I lean toward Rock. Anyhoo...Thanks again...\m/ \m/

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Old 10-30-2011, 05:02 PM   #5
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Totally dry. If the construction workers and barking dogs outside allow, I might use acoustic through a mic. If there is noise in the environment, I go electric through FastTrack. The sounds that guitarists love are fluff added onto music. The pie is the pie and that is the melody and harmony. The whipped cream on top is all the wet stuff. Once recorded, guitar audio can be subjected to any number of and any amount of digital transformations. That is like using PhotoShop after the photo is already taken.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:09 PM   #6
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I record what I am hearing from my amp. IOW, my pedals are included as that is the sound that I am hearing as I am laying the tracks. My pedal FX are most times a little understated so that I can add additional verb if needed.

I use a Roland Space Echo pedal so anything coming off of that is an integral part of the guitar performance. I also use a Barber Tone Press and that is part of the basic sound.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:22 PM   #7
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[IMG]http://img705.**************/img705/7451/juicy77.jpg[/IMG]



Wet, lowest latency setting. For classic type stuff, turn the gain and treble wayyyy down, and try the last cab sim in the drop down.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:10 PM   #8
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I've been experimenting a lot over time.
Recently I record guitar:

1. Shure 57 on my HK Tube 20--Dry
2. Shure 58 ~3' away from KB300--wet
3. Stereo AT 4041's (drum overheads actually) in the room

Bass:

1. Direct
2. Stereo AT 40401's as above

Works like STAG for me.

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Old 10-31-2011, 03:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwhalen View Post
Bass:

1. Direct
2. Stereo AT 40401's as above
You're the first person I've found who tracks bass with any sort of stereo information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msore View Post
The sounds that guitarists love are fluff added onto music. The pie is the pie and that is the melody and harmony. The whipped cream on top is all the wet stuff.
This is extremely subjective and traditionalist. You aren't by any chance classically trained, are you? Think of music genres like noise, industrial, ambient, and shoegaze; those genres reverse the situation completely, and they would never have existed if people stuck to the idea that one musical parameter - like harmony - is somehow 'better' or more important or more central to musical composition than another.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:53 AM   #10
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Dry.
I'm conservative with cpu when tracking.
Using oversampling and such when printing.
I'd like to have a reamp setup though..
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:43 AM   #11
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Okay...I'm kind of hearing some different definitions of "Dry." Is that absolutely zero FX, with the exception of EQ, and Amp. selection, and zero distortion? Or...are those FX just turned down to bare minimum?

Matt
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:36 AM   #12
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Okay...I'm kind of hearing some different definitions of "Dry." Is that absolutely zero FX, with the exception of EQ, and Amp. selection, and zero distortion? Or...are those FX just turned down to bare minimum?

Matt
Why would you use EQ outside the mixing/mastering stage? You should be focusing on getting a good take, and boosting and cutting frequencies is not going to make you play any better.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:50 AM   #13
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It depends on the song if I track with effects, but even then I record a completely dry track just to have it...doing this has saved my bacon a few times later on.
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:48 AM   #14
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I come from the school of thought that says the electric guitar and amp are one instrument.These days I extend that to include modeling hardware.I can see the validity of going direct and using an amp sim later,but it's not for me.EQ,verb and compression come later,though.

Don't forget,just because the guitar was played through an amp or model doesn't mean it can't still be manipulated into something completely different!
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:48 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by rictus View Post

Think of music genres like noise, industrial, ambient, and shoegaze; those genres reverse the situation completely, and they would never have existed if people stuck to the idea that one musical parameter - like harmony - is somehow 'better' or more important or more central to musical composition than another.
Even though I'm not really a guitarist, I agree with this.

In fact as I see it, it helps make the case for recording dry & direct.

Can't think of a good argument against it (that doesn't devolve into guitar mythology).
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:31 PM   #16
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Default message versus delivery

The sounds made in communicating messages is sound, and it has its place, but does not communicate messages. It is wetness.

When an actor delivers lines, the sound of the actor's voice is not delivering the lines. It varies and expresses on a completely different level from the words laid down by the scriptwriter.

When a song is played by a symphony, and then the same song is played by a power trio, and then the same song is sung by a barbershop quartet, the SOUNDS change, but the music, the song, the guts, do not change.

When a singer is on stage, part of the performance may be the clothing, or the hair, or the choreography. But those things are fluff on top of and separate from the music.

When a scientist gets up to deliver a paper, the tone of voice, or the cadence, or the amplification - DOES NOT change the ideas in the paper. If Stephen Hawking recites through a digital voice synthesizer, or if someone reads for him, or if his words are spoken with a woman's voice - all that might be interesting from the sound point of view, but it does not change his message.

When a guitarist plays ONLY tone, with no melody or harmony detectable, is that music? Or is that sound? When geese honk on the way south, is that music, or is that sound? When a guitarist is playing through an amp, and then all of a sudden someone pulls the plug and there is no amp, no effects, does that mean the guitarist STOPPED playing the music? No, the music is still playing, even though the sound changed.

But all of this is unclear under the guitarists' mythology which draws his or her attention into the amp and digital effects.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BuckNutz1070 View Post
Okay...I'm kind of hearing some different definitions of "Dry." Is that absolutely zero FX, with the exception of EQ, and Amp. selection, and zero distortion? Or...are those FX just turned down to bare minimum?

Matt
Completely dry. No EQ, No FX, No amp.

I either go through my M-Audio DMP3 pre-amp into my M-Audio sound card or alternatively through my Pod X3 or Line 6 UX1.

I obviously monitor with an ampsim (or amp sound from my X3 or UX1) plus effects such as reverb, but the recorded sound is completely dry. Then it's played back through an ampsim and FX. This gives me the option completely changing things if I want to. Although, I rarely change things massively because the sound I monitor with affects the way I play.

Pete
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Old 10-31-2011, 01:39 PM   #18
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Default sound versus music

Sound is not the same as music, as evidenced by all those young people out there playing Guitar Hero on a plastic guitar with colored buttons.

When you are recording guitar input, you will be wanting to HEAR it as clearly as you can so you can make decisions about how it works, how it goes together with other tracks, how it serves the purposes of the song. So I guess the question is - if you want to hear clearly what you are doing on your guitar, HOW can you hear more clearly?
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Old 10-31-2011, 01:46 PM   #19
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KB37 with PODFarm, I record both. On the Line6, "send 1" wet (save the preset to use later as plugin for mixing) and "send 3" dry. Then I group the 2 recorded items to slip-edit them, etc.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:03 PM   #20
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Wet usually but without any time FX (reverb or delay). i use these post tracking. I dont print delays so that the audio can still be edited or punched in etc...
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:09 PM   #21
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For me, frequency, amplitude and gain are part of the dry sound, while all time and pitch related FX are what I consider 'wet'.

I use an Eleven Rack to track guitars and bass.
Always one DI track ( pure guitar/bass input, no EQ, Amp or FX)
and one amped track. Sometimes I use the amped track in the mix, sometimes I re-amp.

Wether I record my second track dry or wet, depends on the purpose. I can always re-amp afterwards anyway.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:22 PM   #22
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I prefer to record guitar totally wet, as it sounds live in the room - distortion, spring reverb and all - however, lately I've only been brave enough to do that for myself. If I'm recording another guitarist, they get totally dry direct - let them set their amp however they want and I'll take that too, but, even if the tone is right, a lot dudes just don't take care of their gear and I wind up getting all kinds of other unpleasentries from their setups. I still don't like sims though. I'll re-amp the dry signal and then, again, record the live amp.
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNutz1070 View Post
Just curious...but when you record into Reaper, do you record completely "Dry"...or "Wet?" If you in fact record a little bit "Wet"...what do you generally record with? I run through a DigiTech RP-155, using X-Edit to adjust my effects. If you run completely "Dry"...what VST's do you prefer? Just so you know...I generally play Classic Rock...80's Rock...and some New Rock Music!! Thanks...\m/ \m/

Matt
Long answer:

Few or none of these "totally dry" options were available when I started recording guitar. Even reamping was new or non-existent and in many cases not used. Thus I developed the habit of knowing what the song needed before I did anything which turned into "If I can't know what it needs beforehand, I don't have any business recording it." As an old fart I still think that foresight has great value for any musician. That applies to both basic compositon and basic tone (amount of overdrive etc). So my upfront items were usually:

Basic tone, drive, amp eq, wah pedal etc. (wah is performance based so it goes here). I don't consider these as "wet" mostly due to my old school upbringing.

The rest I consider icing for later (reverb/delay/chorus/phaser etc) with a few exceptions since for me personally these don't fall into the tone category ymmv. Over the years, finding, knowing, commiting up front has worked for me very well not to mention taught me an awful lot about what works and what doesn't. Once the track is there, I don't have to spend hours surfing through presets or hand crafting tones or second guessing those choices, its just there.

Short Answer:

The long answer is really what I happen to personally like. Any method is valid if it works and provides consitent results.

What do I actually use? Usually real amps and/or POD depending on what I'm looking for but I don't use the POD FX per se going in, at least not the icing type stuff. The exception is if the effect makes the song or the part what it is when composed, then it goes in up front.
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:26 PM   #24
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I mainly record heavily distorted tones, and could never get the sound desired and amount of overdrive when recording DI through a sim.
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:39 PM   #25
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I was very influenced by my first real recording session. I was 16, it was on somebody elses dime, and the engineer had been Les Paul's guitar tech for several decades, as I understood it. So I was scared shitless. Basically the engineer (Dale Epperson, I think) really had better things to do than babysit a bunch of teenagers, so I didn't learn anything from him directly. He just kept asking "what did you think of that?" Well I don't know Dale, I'm 16 and have never been in a real recording studio before - why doesn't Mr. "Les Paul's Tech" tell me what HE thinks! Anyway, through out the whole session he insisted on recording me dry and adding my thick tube distortion I was so fond of in the mix. We did this on every tune except the last, grungiest song we recorded when I finally insisted on doing it my way - so my amp sounds exactly like it does on stage (except I wasn't using my amp, but a little fender champ they kept in the studio). It turned out to be the only song on the album that I really liked. Nothing else sounded like me or the band. I learned to trust my gut and to trust my sound. Just cause some guy's an expert doesn't mean he's ALWAYS right about EVERYTHING. I understand, with decades of experience and hindsight since then, why he wanted to do it his way, but my way was, and still is, better for me.

Oh yeah, delay and modulation effects will often come in the mix - but I'm not opposed to recording it wet if it helps with the performance. Sure, you can't change it once it's on there, but that should be part of the music and you should have it figured out already - like Karbo said. It really is better to have a plan first. I can't record dry guitar and then spend endless weeks tweaking the sound because I never had clear vision of what it was supposed to sound like in the first place. Even in cases where I don't have a clear vision, sometimes it's best to just go with SOMETHING and move on to the next thing that needs done. That is to say, DECIDED on a sound and stick with it as long as you can tolerate it. But that's me. If I spend too long messing with one thing, the tune will never be finished.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:05 PM   #26
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I'm really diggin' these responses!! Great to read about everyone's trials and errors. I guess what it boils down to is just personal taste, and experience!!
Thanks...\m/ \m/

Matt
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:46 AM   #27
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If you want to record dry, you'd almost have to at least monitor whatever you're recording wet.

Otherwise how could you play it with any faith or touch?
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:17 AM   #28
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As a sound engineer (not a guitarist, tho I know 4 chords), I always record what the muso produces with his instrument and stack. It's up to the guitarist to produce a sound, and my job to record him (and I may use close, mid and room mics, depending on the session).

I do however try to record a DI feed from his guitar so that it can be edited, reamped or even fed thru a Pod/amp-emulator or even a sim plugin. This allows flexibility and escape options, esp if the guitarist isn't very good at playing or producing a decent tone.

Always double/triple-track -it can hide a multiple of sins/edits, etc, esp if you aim to reamp or use plgins to layer or change the sounds...

>
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:32 AM   #29
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Hey guys - I created a new thread here for discussing the importance of harmony vs timbre and other such matters. Marah, msore, and all the rest of you - I'd appreciate your input.
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:02 AM   #30
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wet - no regrets

dry - create doubts

I'm actually sort of in between as of now. A distortion pedal or my amphead straight through my soundcard, then keFIR with a cabsim (I love the low latency with that one!) saves me a few headaches, but there's still the differences between cabsims which keeps me second-guessing.

Haven't accepted any 100% modeling as of yet. Would love to be able to put cabsims in a pedal... anyone???
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:08 AM   #31
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I will save my debate to some of these posts for rictus' thread since it was formed pretty much for the discussion purpose.

I'd say planetnine's is pretty much the same way I go most often. It gives the most flexibility I've found, as well as giving me or the performer "their" sound.

For most guitar players (99% or so) have spent ALOT of time finding their sound or tone, that's what they want & expect to hear being recorded.

***Edit***
@rictus - I assume when he's (the OP) referred to EQ, he's more referencing amp or guitar rig/rack EQ for getting desired "tone" as opposed to "mixing" EQ. I don't use a separate one, but I do know many others who do have guitar/amp EQ somewhere in there line.

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Old 11-01-2011, 08:26 AM   #32
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Quote:
For most guitar players (99% or so) have spent ALOT of time finding their sound or tone, that's what they want & expect to hear being recorded
I somewhat took the original question as how do we guitarists who record ourselves go about it in the wet/dry dept. Completely valid of course but I'd think the difference between one person who learns how to record himself and an engineer who records multiple guitarists would be quite different. If I were recording someone else, I'd take different approaches on a player by player basis based on what gives me options later when they are no longer there to re-track; recording myself, different story... I don't always record "my" tone, I craft the tone for the song, whatever about it is "me" is going to come through either way.
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:38 AM   #33
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Would love to be able to put cabsims in a pedal... anyone???
Not hard to do, considering that's exactly what POD, Axe-FX, et al do
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:42 AM   #34
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If you want to record dry, you'd almost have to at least monitor whatever you're recording wet.

Otherwise how could you play it with any faith or touch?
Of course. I record dry but I generally have a good idea which patch I'm going to use and I monitor with it.

I find if I need to change patches the performance is portable. I would never listen to the dry track during takes.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:47 AM   #35
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I somewhat took the original question as how do we guitarists who record ourselves go about it in the wet/dry dept. Completely valid of course but I'd think the difference between one person who learns how to record himself and an engineer who records multiple guitarists would be quite different. If I were recording someone else, I'd take different approaches on a player by player basis based on what gives me options later when they are no longer there to re-track; recording myself, different story... I don't always record "my" tone, I craft the tone for the song, whatever about it is "me" is going to come through either way.
I approach both the same, and there are times I've used the DI track to "enhance" or "tweak" the sound but I've found most guys I've recorded including myself know coming in what they want to hear going out. Very rare, in my experience is the occasion that I've/We've "produced" the sound post tracking that's made the final cut.
But admittedly I do significantly more playing than recording, so when I myself have hit the recording stage I've worked the song over so much, that changing it then just sounds like somethings "not right".
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:04 AM   #36
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Not hard to do, considering that's exactly what POD, Axe-FX, et al do
so how would I go about doing this with a POD?
I wouldn't mind testing an axe-fx, but I haven't found one under 1k yet

sorry for the OT
-I'm slightly wet, btw
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:47 AM   #37
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so how would I go about doing this with a POD?
I wouldn't mind testing an axe-fx, but I haven't found one under 1k yet

sorry for the OT
-I'm slightly wet, btw
The POD(I have an X3) has amp models and cabinet models.when you choose an amp model it defaults to it's own cabinet,but you have the option of choosing which cab you want.Like a Tweed Champ with a 4 12 Marshall cab,for example.One of the amp choices is "NO AMP",but you are still given the cabinet choices.
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:58 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Melton Glass View Post
The POD(I have an X3) has amp models and cabinet models.when you choose an amp model it defaults to it's own cabinet,but you have the option of choosing which cab you want.Like a Tweed Champ with a 4 12 Marshall cab,for example.One of the amp choices is "NO AMP",but you are still given the cabinet choices.
Thank you for replying! I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I was asking for - I owned a pod xt-live and hoped the newer had this new feature - was to put my own cabimpulses into a pedal. You know for live and recording purposes, but to shell out 15k something for an axe-fx I don't know...

promise: last ot-post

stiiiiiiiill weeeeeeeet, to keep on track!
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:09 AM   #39
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What is your definition of wet and dry?

If I'm recording with Guitar Rig 4, the recorded sound is just straight DI guitar.

If I'm micing my amp, the recorded sound is whatever the mic picked up.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:21 PM   #40
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I wouldn't trade the sound of my Mesa Boogie and old beat up Strat for anything. When it comes to reverb/delay, however, I do that post recording as dictated by the song.

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