Old 09-03-2022, 12:24 AM   #1
Tod
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Default Single CCs (now with video)

I've complained about this before, and it's so irritating I need to bring it up again. Please fix.

These midi editor pictures are midi for my Pedal Steel Guitar in Kontakt

This only works part of the time.


This works all of the time.



This only works part of the time.


This works all of the time.

Last edited by Tod; 09-04-2022 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 09-03-2022, 06:23 AM   #2
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what is the bug? what do you mean by works
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Old 09-03-2022, 07:21 AM   #3
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If you put a ReaControlMIDI before the PSG and examine the log, are the single CC messages being sent? Does the problem occur with other plugins (best, not from NI)? Does the problem occur with the same plugin in other DAWs?
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Old 09-03-2022, 12:12 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by MonkeyBars View Post
what is the bug? what do you mean by works
These are CC events that control the pitch of my steel guitar.

The ones that work part of the time have 1 CC event before the note is played.

The only way to get it to work all the time, every time is to draw several events under the notes.

One CC event before the note should work which is why I call it a bug.

I have this Steel Guitar on the market, here is one of the demos.
https://youtu.be/j_Ypn79rt_s
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Old 09-03-2022, 12:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
If you put a ReaControlMIDI before the PSG and examine the log, are the single CC messages being sent? Does the problem occur with other plugins (best, not from NI)? Does the problem occur with the same plugin in other DAWs?
Thanks for your reply sockmonkey, yes ReaControlMIDI shows the events are working.

Simple CC event tests with the Steel Guitar also work okay.

It's when the midi is more complex, like the midi track used to create that Steel Guitar in the demo I posted above, that's when things become ify.
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Old 09-04-2022, 07:40 PM   #6
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Here's a video showing the problem and you can clearly see the bug in this video.

https://youtu.be/t0dfH2_0Fig

Now I have to be absolutely honest. It wasn't until I was putting this video together that I found another factor. This is a midi program with key-switches and as I was putting this video together I accidentally put a CC4 event in front of the key-switch, and it played properly.

This is good, but does not mean this is not a bug, it is still a bug with important reasons to try and fix.
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Old 09-04-2022, 11:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
It's when the midi is more complex, like the midi track used to create that Steel Guitar in the demo I posted above, that's when things become ify.
But does ReaControlMIDI then still shows events are working? Because that would suggest that it might not be a REAPER bug, but rather a Pedal Steel Guitar (or Kontakt) issue.
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Old 09-05-2022, 12:05 AM   #8
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But does ReaControlMIDI then still shows events are working? Because that would suggest that it might not be a REAPER bug, but rather a Pedal Steel Guitar (or Kontakt) issue.
Hi Tale, I didn't put ReaControlMIDI on this time because as I mentioned above it showed all the midi data before.

I'm the one who wrote the script and created this Steel Guitar, all the key-switch does is tell witch group in Kontakt is to be used and the velocity of the KS tells what the pitch amount will be..

I can't see how selecting the group before the CC-event would cause this you'd think it would be the other way around. I mean if the group to be played is selected and then CC-event is played.

I guess it's not that big of deal if in deed it will work with the cc events played before the key switches, we'll just have to wait and see.
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Old 09-05-2022, 12:36 AM   #9
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I guess it's not that big of deal if in deed it will work with the cc events played before the key switches, we'll just have to wait and see.
Oops, I seemed to have missed that it worked with the CCs before the key switches. But it might still be useful to look at the MIDI log, both when it works and when it fails Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference that way.
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Old 09-05-2022, 03:13 PM   #10
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aha, I think I duplicated this, investigating now!
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Old 09-05-2022, 04:18 PM   #11
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aha, I think I duplicated this, investigating now!
Thanks for checking this Justin.
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Old 09-05-2022, 05:10 PM   #12
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Thanks for checking this Justin.
ah, the thing I found is that if "Sync MIDI editor transport to project transport" is unchecked, playing back the preview from the MIDI editor doesn't respect CC ramps, which isn't ideal.

If that's not what you're seeing (e.g. this is from project playback), can you make me a minimal project that reproduces? (ideally with reasynth or something so I don't have to be dependent on another VSTi, using MIDI parameter modulation if necessary)
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Old 09-05-2022, 09:04 PM   #13
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ah, the thing I found is that if "Sync MIDI editor transport to project transport" is unchecked, playing back the preview from the MIDI editor doesn't respect CC ramps, which isn't ideal.

If that's not what you're seeing (e.g. this is from project playback), can you make me a minimal project that reproduces? (ideally with reasynth or something so I don't have to be dependent on another VSTi, using MIDI parameter modulation if necessary)
Okay Justin, for what it's worth I do have "Sync MIDI editor transport to project transport" checked.

I'll see what I can do with Reasynth, I tried it the other day for testing this, but couldn't figure out how to get it to respond to CCs. I'll give it another try.
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Old 09-05-2022, 10:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
ah, the thing I found is that if "Sync MIDI editor transport to project transport" is unchecked, playing back the preview from the MIDI editor doesn't respect CC ramps, which isn't ideal.

If that's not what you're seeing (e.g. this is from project playback), can you make me a minimal project that reproduces? (ideally with reasynth or something so I don't have to be dependent on another VSTi, using MIDI parameter modulation if necessary)
Hi Justin, I'm not sure what you want. I was able to get Reasynth set up and working with CCs as well as parameter modulation.

ReaSynth responds perfectly with the CC event. It don't even need a CC event at the front, it responds directly with the envelope, which is great and expected.

I'm just not sure how to duplicate the problem I'm having with My Steel that's using keyswitches.

To recap what's happening with my steel guitar.

> The key-switch comes before the note(s) being played.

>The key-switch determines which CC controller (1 of 4) is being used for the tuning, and for now lets just call it CC1 .

>If the event for CC1 comes after the key-switch but before the note(s), then it doesn't work.

>But if CC1 is before the key-switch, then it works.

Is there something I'm missing or don't understand?
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Old 09-06-2022, 06:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Justin, I'm not sure what you want. I was able to get Reasynth set up and working with CCs as well as parameter modulation.

ReaSynth responds perfectly with the CC event. It don't even need a CC event at the front, it responds directly with the envelope, which is great and expected.

I'm just not sure how to duplicate the problem I'm having with My Steel that's using keyswitches.

To recap what's happening with my steel guitar.

> The key-switch comes before the note(s) being played.

>The key-switch determines which CC controller (1 of 4) is being used for the tuning, and for now lets just call it CC1 .

>If the event for CC1 comes after the key-switch but before the note(s), then it doesn't work.

>But if CC1 is before the key-switch, then it works.

Is there something I'm missing or don't understand?
Can you make a screenshot of this one that also shows where the key-switch event is (or -- is it the E1 note?)?



I suspect in that case, it goes CC, key-switch, note. So then the plug-in ignores the CC, gets the key-switch (where it starts listening for the CC), then gets the note.

REAPER doesn't keep sending the CC if it hasn't changed, unless you have manual CC events inserted.
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Old 09-06-2022, 12:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I suspect in that case, it goes CC, key-switch, note. So then the plug-in ignores the CC, gets the key-switch (where it starts listening for the CC), then gets the note.

REAPER doesn't keep sending the CC if it hasn't changed, unless you have manual CC events inserted.
Okay here is another screenshot showing all 3 scenarios.


The E1 is the keyswitch, the C2 is the note being played.

Does this help?
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Old 09-06-2022, 07:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Okay here is another screenshot showing all 3 scenarios.


The E1 is the keyswitch, the C2 is the note being played.

Does this help?
Does the CC lane have events that are before the current view, or are the events visible the first events?

Can you show me the midi_logger output of the top and bottom scenarios? and while you're at it, make me a minimal .rpp of each of those? (or put the two items in one .rpp).

Last edited by Justin; 09-06-2022 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 09-06-2022, 10:13 PM   #18
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I made a light error in the picture above, this is the way it should have been.



I've included a Reaper project file that has the 3 scenarios in the picture. It also has a midi_logger.
https://stash.reaper.fm/45233/Test%2...r%20Justin.zip
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Old 09-07-2022, 08:58 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I made a light error in the picture above, this is the way it should have been.



I've included a Reaper project file that has the 3 scenarios in the picture. It also has a midi_logger.
https://stash.reaper.fm/45233/Test%2...r%20Justin.zip
Then it makes sense that that wouldn't work -- the CC gets sent first (the plug-in ignores it), then the E1 gets sent (so the plug-in starts looking for that CC).

Ideally, the plug-in should track the CC, and use the last-known value of it when it receives the E1. (if this is your Kontakt script that should be possible I would think?)

Last edited by Justin; 09-07-2022 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 09-07-2022, 01:26 PM   #20
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Ideally, the plug-in should track the CC, and use the last-known value of it when it receives the E1. (if this is your Kontakt script that should be possible I would think?)
Yes, I could probably setup a variable or array for each of the 4 keyswitches. Haha, I'm looking at the script right now to see how that might work.

I'm going to give this some thought Justin, and thank you for sticking with me.
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