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12-05-2018, 10:21 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,098
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New Song - Overhead Projector
This is a brand new one that features a lot of vocals.
I started out working on my overhead mic technique for acoustic drums and wrote this to try them out on but then it turned into this big vocal production song. Like a big flash from that overhead projector in the sky.
I'm playing bass, drums, piano, guitars, and singing all the vocals.
It's titled "Overhead Projector" at:
https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/...ongID=13815064
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-05-2018, 11:14 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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I like it, I especially like that it has vocals.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-05-2018, 03:08 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stratford upon Avon UK
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When Steely Dan married the Beach Boys! Clever arrangement and impeccable playing/singing.
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12-05-2018, 07:02 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I like it, I especially like that it has vocals.
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Thanks man, I have to get real inspired to even try vocal songs. I was watching the Dow drop 800 points while writing the lyrics, and thinking about all the people freaking out. I thought about the killer rally that the stock market had the day before. Ups and downs, highs and lows just like life, but it all settles in the end.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-05-2018, 07:04 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymk
When Steely Dan married the Beach Boys! Clever arrangement and impeccable playing/singing.
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Thanks Barry. Two of my all time most favorite artists.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-05-2018, 07:10 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
Thanks man, I have to get real inspired to even try vocal songs.
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Well keep doing it, it might need less inspiration if you do it more. I was only able to listen via mono skype phones earlier. Listened again just now at home, the mix is clean and nice btw.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-05-2018, 07:37 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Well keep doing it, it might need less inspiration if you do it more. I was only able to listen via mono skype phones earlier. Listened again just now at home, the mix is clean and nice btw.
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Thanks Karbo! Where does my loudness hit compared to what you're used to hearing? I've been trying to break my habit of pushing the levels.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-05-2018, 07:50 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
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I didn't measure it or anything but it sounded pretty close to "just right" to my ears.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-05-2018, 07:59 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I didn't measure it or anything but it sounded pretty close to "just right" to my ears.
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Cool, thanks. I'm not using any brick wall limiters and trying to just keep my levels lower. It's a hard habit for me to break.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-06-2018, 01:34 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Enjoyed it very much! Mix is very good!
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12-06-2018, 11:16 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffsounds
Enjoyed it very much! Mix is very good!
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Thanks Jeff. I re-wrote some of the lyrics and re-sang a lot of it this afternoon. I think the version I have up now is much better.
Several places had clumsy sounding lyrics that are fixed and the vocal tuning and phrasing is tighter now.
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Glennbo
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12-10-2018, 08:25 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
Thanks Karbo! Where does my loudness hit compared to what you're used to hearing? I've been trying to break my habit of pushing the levels.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I didn't measure it or anything but it sounded pretty close to "just right" to my ears.
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So on another forum I had two separate posts that started by saying "turn up the vocals, or turn up the guitar", but both ended with "actually, you need to just turn everything up", which was my concern.
I'm using pure 100% Linux to record in REAPER now, and besides switching OS platforms, decided to break my habit of brick walling everything. I used no brick wall limiting on this song, but my own gut feeling was that it was too restrained. Now I've had two other anonymous people say the same thing. I've never used any of the LUFs meters, but found this K-Meter which was introduced by Bob Katz.
So what's the deal with LUFs vs Ks? Is one better than the other? I tried one of the LUFs meters and found it mostly to be huge and fill my screen with terms and numbers I had no idea what represented. This K-Meter at least makes some sense to me. Three different scales for extreme dynamics, general music dynamics, and radio only dynamics, and with a "happy place" at 83db. What's the advantage of one metering system over the other. All I'm really looking for is an easy way to make consistent volume level mixes that aren't being massively clipped, and also don't sound wimpy.
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Last edited by Glennbo; 01-05-2019 at 10:58 AM.
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12-10-2018, 08:45 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
So on another forum I had two separate posts that started by saying "turn up the vocals, or turn up the guitar", but both ended with "actually, you need to just turn everything up", which was my concern.
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Based on who's interpretation of what is loud enough? It may be low for over-compressed commercial music but if you like the dynamic range you are hearing and peaks are close to zero, you are fine. Send me an MP3 so I can measure.. or drag/drop the file into the analysis tab using Orban Loudness Meter and report back with a screenshot. I could do this myself without the file using Orban and some loopback config but it's a bit of a pain.
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I'm using pure 100% Linux to record in REAPER now, and besides switching OS platforms, decided to break my habit of brick walling everything.
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Right, which is why I ask about what stick against which this is being measured by others - an awful lot of people blindly chase mainstream hyper-compressed material so I have no idea what litmus test we are using. If you like the way it sounds dynamics wise and peaks are near zero, THEY need to turn it up using their volume knob.
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So what's the deal with LUFs vs Ks?
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K-Metering only consists two components... Changing **meters to make them go into the orange/red if over-compressing based on the range you chose (k-20, k-14 etc), and calibrating your monitoring setup so you have a known reference so that X dB on your DAW meters always = Y dB SPLs coming out of your speakers. Btw, that metering is assuming dBFS RMS not peaks at K's interpretation of "zero".
**Personally, I hate the meter visual changes, I already know what values mean what in digital metering, I don't need that farked with, YMMV.
LUFs is a loudness measurement algorithm that takes psychoacoustical phenomenon into account, it has 3 main loudness calculations "right now" aka momentary, "a small window similar to RMS" aka short-term, and "the entire song duration" aka Integrated aka long-term.
The place LUFs and K-Metering overlap (as a random dirty example) is a LUFs of -14 and a K14-Meter reading of -14 dBFS RMS (or zero in their metering terms) is going to be 'about' the same loudness if the song has similar dynamics throughout. All you care about is if it sounds over compressed to you with peaks hitting near zero. If it sounds just right, then what anyone else says doesn't matter. I love this song but it is commercially compressed with an LUFs I'm going to guess somewhere around -8 LUFs, I tend to like -13 ish for reference - I'm guessing what you posted is between -13 and -16 but I'm guessing, where are the peaks in the song, are they near zero based on the average that meter shows?
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Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 12-10-2018 at 09:13 AM.
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12-10-2018, 09:01 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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I measured it anyway...
It runs somewhere around -16 LUFs Integrated, but peaks are a few dB below zero (not sure why I didn't notice the low peaks before, but I didn't measure them as mention and it sounded great by turning up) so if you like the amount of dynamic range it has now, just turn it up a couple/three dB - you can put a brickwall just to catch that handful of times it might reach over zero, that isn't brickwall limiting in the sense most speak of, it's just a protecting against an accidental over here and there and won't change the DR much at all.
If you want to make it "louder" via less dynamics, then just turn it up more and allow the limiter to act more, this will make it sound louder but you'll be reducing dynamic range - the next song in your playlist (feel it), is like this. You just need to decide which one of those you prefer DR wise. In both cases get your peaks going to somewhere between -1 and -.05 - as long as those are there and YOU like the DR you are hearing, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
You might perform a little test, take Feel it and Overhead Projector, crank them up and jam out, one of these will sound better as it get's louder and have more impact, the other may not change much and/or be less enjoyable loud, let me know what you think.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-10-2018, 09:12 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Based on who's interpretation of what is loud enough? It may be low for over-compressed commercial music but if you like the dynamic range you are hearing and peaks are close to zero, you are fine.
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The two reviews I got that thought it was too low were just a couple of musicians in another group, and they are probably used to over compressed sounding recordings just like me. What I notice is that I have to really crank up my system to get the level I want to hear, where my older stuff I don't have to crank my system as hard.
Quote:
Send me an MP3 so I can measure.. or drag/drop the file into the analysis tab using Orban Loudness Meter and report back with a screenshot. I could do this myself without the file using Orban and some loopback config but it's a bit of a pain.
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I downloaded the Orban meter, but the current one isn't going to run in Wine without some overrides, so I tried the XP version. It runs fine in Wine, but has no analysis tab. My song is freely downloadable, as are all my song. This link should be direct.
https://www.soundclick.com/util/down...fm?ID=13815064
Quote:
Right, which is why I ask about what stick against which this is being measured by others - an awful lot of people blindly chase mainstream hyper-compressed material so I have no idea what litmus test we are using. If you like the way it sounds dynamics wise and peaks are near zero, THEY need to turn it up using their volume knob.
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What I notice is that I have to really crank up my system to get the level I want to hear, where my older stuff I don't have to crank my system as hard.
Quote:
K-Metering only consists two components... Changing **meters to make them go into the orange/red if over-compressing based on the range you chose (k-20, k-14 etc), and calibrating your monitoring setup so you have a known reference so that X dB on your meters always = Y dB SPLs coming out of your speakers. Btw, that metering is assuming dBFS RMS not peaks at K's interpretation of "zero".
**Personally, I hate the meter visual changes, I already know what values mean what in digital metering, I don't need that farked with, YMMV.
LUFs is a loudness measurement algorithm that takes psychoacoustical phenomenon into account, it has 3 main loudness calculations "right now" aka momentary, "a small window similar to RMS" aka short-term, and "the entire song duration" aka Integrated.
The place LUFs and K-Metering overlap is an integrated LUFs of -14 and a K14-Meter reading of -14 dBFS (or zero in their metering terms) is going to be 'about' the same loudness if the song has similar dynamics throughout. All you care about is if it sounds over compressed to you with peaks hitting near zero. If it sounds just right, then what anyone else says doesn't matter. I love this song but it is commercially compressed with an LUFs I'm going to guess somewhere around -8 LUFs, I tend to like -13 ish for reference - I'm guessing what you posted is between -13 and -16 but I'm guessing, where are the peaks in the song, are they near zero based on the average that meter shows?
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I guess I just need a meter with three sections. Too Low, Just Right, and Too Loud. All the LUFS meters I've tried made me more confused than confident. At least the K-Meter has some rudimentary functions that make sense to me.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-10-2018, 09:20 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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My system has a lot of headroom and when I compared it to what I was listening to the other day I didn't notice but based on this, and your latest reply, you might want to compress/limit it a little more and turn up. If this were closer to -13 to -11 (LKFS = LUFs), it'll probably solve the problem without taking too much of the dynamics away but it's all taste to some extent. So from that perspective, I don't necessarily disagree with the other forum comments.
Integrated LUFs is just a measurement of how loud the song sounds, Short-term is the same just for short term sections of the song similar to RMS. I completely understand how all the numbers can be complex but much of that you can ignore for our purposes.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 12-10-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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12-10-2018, 09:25 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Posts: 9,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I measured it anyway...
It runs somewhere around -16 LUFs Integrated, but peaks are a few dB below zero (not sure why I didn't notice the low peaks before, but I didn't measure them as mention and it sounded great by turning up) so if you like the amount of dynamic range it has now, just turn it up a couple/three dB - you can put a brickwall just to catch that handful of times it might reach over zero, that isn't brickwall limiting in the sense most speak of, it's just a protecting against an accidental over here and there and won't change the DR much at all.
If you want to make it "louder" via less dynamics, then just turn it up more and allow the limiter to act more, this will make it sound louder but you'll be reducing dynamic range - the next song in your playlist (feel it), is like this. You just need to decide which one of those you prefer DR wise. In both cases get your peaks going to somewhere between -1 and -.05 - as long as those are there and YOU like the DR you are hearing, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
You might perform a little test, take Feel it and Overhead Projector, crank them up and jam out, one of these will sound better as it get's louder and have more impact, the other may not change much and/or be less enjoyable loud, let me know what you think.
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The song Feel It sounds less enjoyable to me at high volume, and that's part of how I ended up with the volume I used on Overhead Projector. Feel it has brick wall limiting on just about every track, where there are none on Overhead Projector. At the master that gets me much much less than I am used to, but I never got into the red on any track or the master.
I do however feel like I am having to crank my whole system up absurdly high to get the level of impact I want to hear and feel while listening. I could turn everything up full volume with Overhead Projector, and not feel like I'm going to blow a speaker, which also makes me think it's too low of a level.
Seems like I remember reading about some meter that does the LUFs thing, but also had a control where you could force some arbitrary level and make all your projects come out real equal for levels.
I have no consistency with final levels, and that's something I want to get better at doing. Thanks for all your input.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-10-2018, 09:31 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
The song Feel It sounds less enjoyable to me at high volume, and that's part of how I ended up with the volume I used on Overhead Projector. Feel it has brick wall limiting on just about every track, where there are none on Overhead Projector.
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Good for you my friend, good job.
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I do however feel like I am having to crank my whole system up absurdly high to get the level of impact I want to hear and feel while listening. I could turn everything up full volume with Overhead Projector, and not feel like I'm going to blow a speaker, which also makes me think it's too low of a level.
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I think there is some room for you to split the difference and arrive at what's just right for you.
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I have no consistency with final levels, and that's something I want to get better at doing. Thanks for all your input.
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I love Orban - it will give you the consistency - you massage the those numbers via how much compression/limiting you use while keeping peaks near zero. It won't take very long at all and you will hear and be able to roughly predict what the result will be by ear anyway, once you get there, it becomes much easier. Yes, I still have other meters that I use for short-term spot checks while mixing but this is great because you are measuring the full final render and not waiting for the entire song to playback in the DAW.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-10-2018, 09:49 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Good for you my friend, good job.
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Really hard habit to break. All the way back to using a Teac 3340 slamming the meters always resulted in the sound I wanted. Six or eight months ago I was trying to match the level of a new project with an older one and felt like I was having to crank the new one up to a level that sounded squashed to keep peaks under 0db. Since then, I've tried walking my levels back more and more, but this was the first project with not a single instance of the W1 limiter (an L1 clone).
Quote:
I think there is some room for you to split the difference and arrive at what's just right for you.
I love Orban - it will give you the consistency - you massage the those numbers via how much compression/limiting you use while keeping peaks near zero. It won't take very long at all and you will hear and be able to roughly predict what the result will be by ear anyway, once you get there, it becomes much easier. Yes, I still have other meters that I use for short-term spot checks while mixing but this is great because you are measuring the full final render and not waiting for the entire song to playback in the DAW.
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Is Orban an only offline tool? The XP version worked right off the bat with no overrides in Linux on Wine, but I saw no way to get it to analyze my file, as it had no tab for that. The current version version wouldn't run and would need me to figure out some overrides to get it functioning. I may try tweaking around on it to see if I can get it to go, or will the XP version do what I need and there's some other way of getting it to look at a file? If drag-n-drop is involved, it might be a no go, and it would be dragging from one OS to another simulated one.
EDIT: Well it looks like the XP version is wanting to actually monitor the output of my hardware, which it doesn't see properly since it is running in Wine on Linux. I'm guessing that if I can get the newer version to run that won't be an issue since it has the analyze tab.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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Last edited by Glennbo; 12-10-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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12-10-2018, 09:53 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
Is Orban an only offline tool? The XP version worked right off the bat with no overrides in Linux on Wine, but I saw no way to get it to analyze my file, as it had no tab for that. The current version version wouldn't run and would need me to figure out some overrides to get it functioning. I may try tweaking around on it to see if I can get it to go, or will the XP version do what I need and there's some other way of getting it to look at a file? If drag-n-drop is involved, it might be a no go, and it would be dragging from one OS to another simulated one.
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I'm not sure about the Linux piece but to use Orban live it needs to use the soundcard and a loopback so it may not be the best choice for live metering - I use specifically for post-rendered files - for live metering I use YouLean in Reaper on the monitor FX but where Linux is concerned, I have no idea: https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/
** The only reason I use it is because of the offline feature, if you want integrated LUFs which is the loudness of the entire song, then you have to play the song from beginning to end in the DAW which takes up more time. So it's actually faster at render time to render, measure offline, see if it is close to what I want, and re-render if needed. Since the offline feature has a queue, it's also handy for just loading up a bunch of different tunes and comparing them.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I'm not sure about the Linux piece but to use Orban live it needs to use the soundcard and a loopback so it may not be the best choice for live metering - I use specifically for post-rendered files - for live metering I use YouLean in Reaper on the monitor FX but where Linux is concerned, I have no idea: https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/
** The only reason I use it is because of the offline feature, if you want integrated LUFs which is the loudness of the entire song, then you have to play the song from beginning to end in the DAW which takes up more time. So it's actually faster at render time to render, measure offline, see if it is close to what I want, and re-render if needed. Since the offline feature has a queue, it's also handy for just loading up a bunch of different tunes and comparing them.
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The K-Meter I posted the image of is a native Linux VST and it works without issue in REAPER for Linux. From what I can tell, it just plays with the scale so there are more slices around 0db for identifying peaks.
YouLean was one of the LUFs meters I still have installed over on the Windows side of my DAW, but I never understood what it was trying to tell me. Too many different scales and unfamiliar terms for me. There was another one that had a control where you could say "make my mix a nice quantity of LUFS" and it would hold the mix at that level, but I never got that one either.
If I can get the current version of Orban to run on Linux, do you think it's Analyze tab will function if it isn't actually connecting to my audio hardware? I just uninstalled the XP version because even though it would come up and run, it only saw Pulse audio and couldn't connect to it and display anything on the meters.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-10-2018, 10:27 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
If I can get the current version of Orban to run on Linux, do you think it's Analyze tab will function if it isn't actually connecting to my audio hardware?
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Correct. The analysis tab is strictly offline and doesn't require any sound card hookup. For example, other than the virtual wiring I did to test your song live earlier (before I had the MP3), I never use it with the sound card. I just drag/drop files into to the analysis queue and let it analyze. Orban may pop a warning on launch if the soundcard isn't configured but that can be ignored for offline purposes.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-10-2018, 10:52 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Correct. The analysis tab is strictly offline and doesn't require any sound card hookup. For example, other than the virtual wiring I did to test your song live earlier (before I had the MP3), I never use it with the sound card. I just drag/drop files into to the analysis queue and let it analyze. Orban may pop a warning on launch if the soundcard isn't configured but that can be ignored for offline purposes.
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Cool, that's kind of what I was thinking the case might be. I'll see if I can figure out what overrides are needed to get the newer one to run.
In the mean time, I did find a native Linux LUFs vst meter, but just as it has always been with any LUFs meters I've tried, there are multiple level indicators, and snazzy graphs that don't mean a thing to me. I can't tell if there is really any useful information to me on this meter. Looks like I have a fair amount of "I" or "L" whatever that is. Much less LRA, and some S & M. None of that translates to "Too Quiet", "Just Right" or "Too Loud" in my brane stump!
I got this meter from these guys, and am using the trial version.
https://www.klangfreund.com/lufsmeter/
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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Last edited by Glennbo; 01-05-2019 at 10:58 AM.
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12-10-2018, 11:14 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
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That's the beauty of Orban, you can drag all your favorite songs into it, note the LKFS value and make yours match close to those and see how they sound - because some of just right is your taste. Someone may pop in and say how much this varies based on content, which is true, but I've heard your content and this rule of thumb will certainly be a good starting point, especially if you are comparing to songs with similar dynamic content.
Note: LKFS is a different term for LUFS and LUFS = Loudness Units Full Scale - which is telling us right in the name itself that we are assuming peaks near zero (FS).
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 12-10-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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12-10-2018, 12:10 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
That's the beauty of Orban, you can drag all your favorite songs into it, note the LKFS value and make yours match close to those and see how they sound - because some of just right is your taste. Someone may pop in and say how much this varies based on content, which is true, but I've heard your content and this rule of thumb will certainly be a good starting point, especially if you are comparing to songs with similar dynamic content.
Note: LKFS is a different term for LUFS and LUFS = Loudness Units Full Scale - which is telling us right in the name itself that we are assuming peaks near zero (FS).
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In the past, I always just played a clean sounding Steely Dan or Donald Fagen track on my monitors, then compared my level to that. I always had brick wall limiters in force then as well though.
Tried more to get Orban to run in Linux. Looks like it doesn't find the D3D it wants or something. I gave up on trying to figure out what libraries will make it happy for now. Maybe the Native Linux LUFs meter I found has something useful on it. I need an education on what I'm looking at with it, which I guess is why K-Meter (also native Linux) might be more useful for me.
I just want my music to be all up in your face, without being too offensive or sounding too squashed.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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12-10-2018, 12:42 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
I just want my music to be all up in your face, without being too offensive or sounding too squashed.
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Doesn't everybody. Well some want it up in your face and squashed.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-12-2018, 04:33 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Prague
Posts: 27
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Good tune Glennbo - I enjoyed that, thanks!
Steve.
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12-17-2018, 10:04 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy
Good tune Glennbo - I enjoyed that, thanks!
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Thanks Steve!
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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