Include SWS natively...

[Xenakios]

Originally Posted by nofish

What do you want to port ?
It's a .dll like the MIDI editor is also a .dll for example (edit: Talking Windows). Isn't the MIDI editor native then ?

Yeah, the word "native" is not really right to use here...The SWS extension like the other Reaper extensions (the audio file formats, the MIDI editor etc) is already C++ compiled into native code that is loaded from a dynamic library.

People should use "maintained by Cockos and distributed with Reaper" or something like that instead.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

At least juliansader's scripts sort that out, no? And even build upon it with even more features.

Fine by me, I'll check them out, didn't realize they existed.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

suggest you read this
http://reaperblog.net/2015/03/interv...ffrey-francis/

Ohhh !

I did not know....

A BBBIIIGGG Thank You to Geoffrey !!!!

-Michael (BTW.: I did a tiny bit of a similar work regarding the little LiveConfigs User Guide, due to the same motivation)

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by nofish

It's a .dll like the MIDI editor is also a .dll for example (edit: Talking Windows). Isn't the MIDI editor native then ?

All VST plugins (in Windows) are .dlls. Obviously they are not considered "native" to Reaper.

"Binary Reaper extensions" are dlls as well. I would not consider them "native" just because they use the propriety API Reaper provides, which makes them not usable with other software.

To me, here, "native" would mean that Cocks takes on responsibility for the maintenance (including upgrades, bugfixes, documentation, ...) because they consider it an indispensable part of the product.

-Michael

[Vincent Sermonne]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

At least juliansader's scripts sort that out, no? And even build upon it with even more features.

So it is the way ? Ok the script can do the job: don't include SWS natively. The script is a great thing and can be very usefull but this is add-ons.
My actual professional work is based by action marker and tempo marker, is not only usefull, is essencial in my choice for Reaper. So for the next Reapers versions I must to hope a script who will do this functions... and maybe pay for it. sad.

[mschnell]

For me, the conclusion of the discussion is:

1) Cockos should initiate a group aiming to replace the SWS functionality.
They should provide them with a dedicated forum "SWS 2" to coordinate the work and the Reaper devs and other knowledgeable and helpful people should monitor that forum and provide tips and tricks if appropriate.

2) Cockos should work with cfillion to integrate Reapack in Reaper so that the results of the work can easily be installed, tested and used by any Reaper user. This should include as well scripts (already done with ReaPack), as binary extensions, VSTs, and include source code, binary code, and documentation (searcheable for installation and usable as context-help, if appropriate). ReaPack is especially viable here, as "SWS 2" will come in a number of dedicated sets/packages, instead of a complete monolithic installation, as the original SWS did.

3) Any SWS functionality that can be done as a script should be done that way, as this is the easiest option to maintain. If some stuff needs extending the Reaper Script API (in fact I do know such issues) this should be discussed in the forum.

4) At first, a concept should be crafted, defining what SWS functions could be done how and by whom, and in what bundles they are supposed to be provided.

5) If possible, the new packages should be work-alikes to the well known SWS functions (to allow current SWS users to easily convert), but of course extensions, modernization, beatifying, improved usability, ... is welcome and should be discussed in the forum.

6) With any software opus, the appropriate documentation should be provided in an appropriate ways (see ReaPack(2)). Hopefully, most of the text can be based on the existing SWS documentation, so that this potentially not popular task will be not too hard.

This way, the SWS sibling will really become a viable, open source, community driven software product.

Thanks for listening,
-Michael

[Aeolian]

I'm not so sure thats the way to go.

Not all users use reapack for installing reaper add-ons.

Quite a lot do it the old Irish way


Imvho, sws just needs the right person, and that role has always been self-appointed.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Aeolian

Not all users use reapack for installing reaper add-ons.

They will, if it's integrated in Reaper out of the box. Especially, because ReaPack not only does the installation, but allows for finding the stuff you are in need of.

Originally Posted by Aeolian

Imvho, sws just needs the right person, and that role has always been self-appointed.

Of course this would allow all others not to bother. But I doubt that someone will be found who does it and promises to do it on the long run. That is why a community driven effort is the way to go, and to be successful (which we all do hope) same needs some structuring, like the one proposed.

Of coure if somebody pops up and shouts "I'll do it", I will be silent on the spot.

-Michael

[ivansc]

Hooray! Downloaded installed and donated!

So pleased to see this is still going forward. Even if all that happens is that anything that breaks later on gets fixed, I will be more than happy.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
Not all users use reapack for installing reaper add-ons.

They will, if it's integrated in Reaper out of the box.
...
-Michael

But the ReaPack (as it is now) does not work in Windows XP :-(

akademie

[Lorbakounet]

Originally Posted by akademie

But the ReaPack (as it is now) does not work in Windows XP :-(

akademie

Retro-compatibility down to windows 3.1 should be mandatory

[X-Raym]

@all

Tim just released a new SWS build :
Cockos Confederated Forums - View Single Post - SWS Extension Updates

Originally Posted by Tim

v2.8.8 featured build (March 13, 2017)


We're back!

This is just the 2.8.7 pre-release build officially released, and rebuilt to better support latest REAPER versions.
I plan to continue on and work on some of the bug fixes next. I hope everyone is well! -SWS

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by akademie

But the ReaPack (as it is now) does not work in Windows XP :-(

I even do still use an XP PC, but - while it would be bad if the ReaPack integration would stop Reaper from working on XP, just loosing ReaPack there would not harm greatly (there are still means to install stuff in other ways).

If necessary ReaPack could be an installation Option (default on).

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by X-Raym

Tim just released a new SWS build :

So seemingly we are save for now and can delay this discussion until the need arises again...

A big Thank You to Tim !!!

Seemingly he is "SWS" here

Anyway I would be very interested in Tim's opinion as an insider to the stuff we discussed here.

-Michael

[heda]

What I would really integrate in REAPER natively, is the API functions that SWS provide. I know that's something that users may not see but sometimes it's helpful for scripting without having to require SWS to be installed.

[mpl]

^^ exactly, especially Breeder`s stuff

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Lorbakounet

Retro-compatibility down to windows 3.1 should be mandatory

Hi Lorbakounet,
I don't see relevance here... apples vs oranges.
Reaper RUNS under Win XP and higher, it does NOT RUN under Win 3.1. As such it would be relevant wish, that all it native parts would run with no confussion like - ohh that part of application does work only in W7, this in W10, etc. Lots of people's DAW was build as WinXP stations and there is no real reason to update those working stations to Win10 crap for example.
So what is the point of that your message here?

Anyway "retro" is cool :-D
akademie

P.S.: On other hand, now, as a external third party script or alike, I have no problem that it has its own OS-version compatibility limitation that will keep me off that functionality on my XP-DAW, while I can use it on my other DAWS (stable Win7, and also Win10 = yes I have also Win10 for testing purposes only :-(

[akademie]

Originally Posted by heda

What I would really integrate in REAPER natively, is the API functions that SWS provide. I know that's something that users may not see but sometimes it's helpful for scripting without having to require SWS to be installed.

yes, heda +1
Although I am not scripter, I know what are you talking about here and deeply agree and support that path.

akademie

[Lorbakounet]

Originally Posted by akademie

Hi Lorbakounet,

So what is the point of that your message here?

Anyway "retro" is cool :-D
akademie

P.S.: On other hand, now, as a external third party script or alike, I have no problem that it has its own OS-version compatibility limitation that will keep me off that functionality on my XP-DAW, while I can use it on my other DAWS (stable Win7, and also Win10 = yes I have also Win10 for testing purposes only :-(

Microsoft ended support for XP in 2014.
Unavoidably, Reaper WILL end up using libs and other stuff in its core engine that won't be able to run under XP.
So I guess my point would be : People using XP for security and stability reasons are getting neither. THe more times goes on, the more they're getting the opposite.

[run_esc]

As a tech writer, may I just say, I am deeply horrified to discover that the fellow who writes Reaper's manual appears to be doing so for free (unless I've misunderstood something)...!

Guild violation of the highest order. Hopefully he makes something selling hard copies.

[cfillion]

Windows XP has many bugs that affects ReaPack's operations and its 16-years-old implementation of SSL is unable to connect to today's modern HTTPS webservers. I can workaround most of those bugs but it still won't be able to download anything from the default repositories (bummer!). The only way to install the mainstream REAPER resources with such a build on XP would be to use the new offline import feature added in the latest beta...

More details here https://github.com/cfillion/reapack/issues/5 (another solution is to use openSSL rather than Windows's SSL implementation – but that's 2 MB more to the DLL and it brings in more issues and maintenance troubles only for supporting an old obsolete system).

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Lorbakounet

So I guess my point would be : People using XP for security and stability reasons are getting neither. THe more times goes on, the more they're getting the opposite.

It's a good point because it's normal and expected for a 16 year old legacy OS - before long using it will be about as secure and productive as using Windows 95. People using it for security reasons are actually using for what they feel are privacy reasons but XP by far is not as secure in 2017 (in the actual real and technical sense of the word) than the Windows OS's that follow it.

[Lokasenna]

Originally Posted by run_esc

As a tech writer, may I just say, I am deeply horrified to discover that the fellow who writes Reaper's manual appears to be doing so for free (unless I've misunderstood something)...!

Guild violation of the highest order. Hopefully he makes something selling hard copies.

Welcome to the internet, where everyone gets paid in "exposure" but you can't spend it anywhere.

[Gianfini]

Originally Posted by James HE

including SWS would bloat the action list with a lot of deprecated actions, which REAPER already suffers a bit too much from as is. I keep SWS around, just for a few actions. (and some API stuff I'm too lazy to work around.

I think the work to be done is a bit more complex than that, but worthy
1. Certain SWS actions are much used and/or are covering functionalities natively present in other DAWs (snapshots, item previewing, autocoloring, track renaming, normalize items, etc.)
2. Other actions are not directly related with functionality existing in competing DAWs even if they are handy for heavy customization work (e.g. Xenakios/SWS: move cursor left configured seconds, or SWS: Toggle last FX bypass for selected tracks or SWS: Mute all receives for selected tracks)
3. Other SWSs are deprecated, duplicated, ...

There should be a work by Devs to propose the sub-set of actions that would fit the above Cathegory 1, where they either integrate them in Reaper or ensure maintenance

I understand there is a judgmental step in this process but isn't this what devs always do when they decide which "next functionality" to develop?

THERE ARE THREE CONCURRENT ISSUES TO SOLVE
- continuation of maintenance of very used SWSs (ensuring they work across Reaper versions, bug fixing, updates even if someone at Cockos changes his job)
- improvement of "usability" of Reaper including natively functions and actions that most other DAWs have (don't we have to acquire more and more customers eventually?)
- Avoidance that if a functionality is highly requested by users but at the same time something similar is partially (poorly sometime) developed in SWS devs would never look at implementing it natively

just my take

g

[mschnell]

That is exactly why I suggested to create a dedicated "SWS developers" forum (and group of supporters) and try to do a (more) structured work on an "SWS 2", which should consist of multiple independently installable options, plus enabling the selection and installation by a perfectly integrate ReaPack that is (optionally ? ) installed out of the box.

-Michael