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Old 02-23-2019, 08:05 AM   #1
Rev Kate
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Default Setting recording levels for consistency

Forum members,

Many years ago, I worked at a duplication house for major labels. We made 4trk, 8trk, cassette and r2r tapes. Capital, A&M or one of the other labels would send me a 2” Master with which I created a “running” Master on our Ampex decks. To ensure National Association of Broadcasting (NAB) consistent levels we prepped our target Ampex recording deck by first zeroing VU meters using a 1000hz -10db below operating level test tone. Now 50 years later I am working on a recording project now that would benefit from having consistent levels in the final product. I have the tone on CD and can add it to an armed track in Reaper but that would be using an analog solution in a digital world. Is there a “built in” feature in Reaper to ensure consistent levels from session to session?
Lastly, is there a digital emulation of traditional VU meters available? Old habits die hard.

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Rev Kate

Last edited by Rev Kate; 02-23-2019 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:10 AM   #2
karbomusic
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Try this...

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/mvmeter2-by-tbproaudio

More here...

https://www.kvraudio.com/plugins/vu-meter
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:39 AM   #3
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Not actually trying to spam, but does this help?

By default, the RMS meter on Rraper's master is pretty much the same as analog VU, and you can even offset it to read 0 at whatever level you choose as nominal. If you want things that look like analog meters, they're out there. I think there's even a JS plugin included with Reaper. I don't have a recommendation on that, though cause I don't use them.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:00 AM   #4
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Default Thank You!

Karbomusic and ashcat_It many thanks. I will look into your ideas and let you know how it goes.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:02 AM   #5
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The free sleepytime mono/stereo channels or mvMeter2 plugins are great VU's.
I always have a VU on my master fader.

I also have a LUFS meter on the master to show me how loud my mix is by modern standards. The youlean loudness meter 2 is a great free LUFS meter.
https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

I also use satson (https://sonimus.com/products/satson/) to gain stage every non drum track to around -18db VU. Drum tracks get peak normalized to -10dbfs

You dont need satson to do this. You could just use the VU on the master and solo each channel then do your gain staging with a trim/volume plug. I happen to like the console saturation of satson however.

Last edited by Magicbuss; 02-23-2019 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 02-25-2019, 01:22 AM   #6
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If I understand correctly you want to be able to record at the same levels for every project. But that would depend on your interface and not Reaper. Just record to Reaper at about -15db and you'll have headroom for peaks. No need to go to 0db like with analog, but never exceed 0db with digital. There is no noise to be concerned about in digital so you can record well bellow 0db.

Last edited by Tubeguy; 02-25-2019 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:26 AM   #7
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Don't confuse recording level with the levels of your final production. It's best to leave headroom* and adjust the levels later.

VU meters were a good compromise. With digital recording a peak meter is much more useful. (I'm sure most analog recording engineers would have loved to have a peak meter and a VU meter.)

0dBFS (zero decibels full-scale) is the "digital maximum". It's as "high as you can count" with a given number of bits. The numbers are bigger in a 24-bit file than in an 8-bit file, but everything is scaled during recording/playback so a 0dB 24-bit file is not louder than a 0dB 8-bit file.

Analog-to-digital converters, digital-to-analog converters, "regular" (integer) WAV files, and CDs are all hard-limited to 0dB and if you try to go over you'll get clipping (distortion).

Analog tape tends to "soft clip" as you go over 0dB and it was normal to go occasionally "into the red". Digital is unforgiving.

REAPER (and most audio software) uses floating-point internally so there is virtually no upper or lower limit and REAPER itself won't clip.

Quote:
I am working on a recording project now that would benefit from having consistent levels in the final product.
Are you trying to match the perceived loudness of multiple recordings?

The easiest thing is to Normalize for "maximized" 0dB peaks.** It's a simple mathematical process and you don't need meters to normalize.

Most commercial CDs/recordings are 0dB normalized (and compressed and limited to beat-out everybody else in the Loudness War).

But, peak levels don't correlate well with perceived loudness.

Or, you can scan and adjust the RMS levels. RMS is a better approximation of "loudness" and if the recordings are similar, matching the RMS levels should match the loudness.

Just as an example, the audiobook specifications call for an RMS level between -23 and -18dB with -3dB peaks.

Or, you can get an LUFS plug-in to measure the loudness (and then adjust).

If you adjust for a target RMS or LUFS level, you have to be careful not to clip the peaks.

A plug-in that analyzes the peak, RMS or LUFS of the entire file is more useful than watching a meter.





* Headroom is a funny thing... If you need headroom it's not headroom anymore, but you don't know until after you're done recording. With "live" recording the peaks are usually unpredictable so you should leave lots of headroom. If you are digitizing analog recordings the levels are pretty-well defined so you don't need as much headroom. But as has been said, you've got a TON of dynamic range with digital recording so there's no reason to record "hot" and there's nothing wrong with leaving lots of "unused" headroom.

** Some people worry about "inter-sample overs" and they normalize to around -1dB. I don't worry about it. There is no inter-sample information in the digital audio data so any overs would only exist on the analog-side of the DAC, and there is nothing stopping the analog-side from going over 0dB.

Also MP3 compression will change the wave shape making some peaks higher and some peaks lower so it's not unusual for the MP3 to go over 0dB, so again some people like to normalize to around -1dB to allow for that. MP3s can go over 0dB without clipping, but you can clip your DAC if you play the MP3 at "full digital volume". But again, it's not something I worry about. I've never heard of a case where that slight clipping was audible, and if you are making an MP3 you've already accepted that it's imperfect.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 02-25-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 09-16-2019, 04:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Anyone else find Mvmeter2 a bit of a cpu hog or is it just me?
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
Anyone else find Mvmeter2 a bit of a cpu hog or is it just me?
I'd have to check since I actually use VUs so rarely.
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Old 04-25-2022, 06:13 AM   #10
standay
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Default Reaper to Cassette Levels

This thread is old but I've been working along the same lines past few days. I'm using Reaper to create tracks for a "mix tape" to record to a "vintage" cassette deck (Teac A-106). First track has about 15 seconds of 440hz recorded at 0db. Second and third tracks are for media (most with max peaks no higher than 0db, but I'm also using event horizon to handle any that are above that) so I can cross-dissolve. Master out is at 0db, music track outs are at 0db.

I downloaded 2 software VUs. One is Sleepy Time Stereo Channel (plugin), the other is mvMeter2 (VST). They both work. Yes, mvMeter2 is a bit of a CPU hog. It works though. I have the reference level on both of those also set to -9db. I tried -18db at first but it was too low, so I chose half that or -9db and that seemed to work better.

Note that I'm not rendering to a file, just playing things back from Reaper, sending that to a USB to audio adapter and from that to the cassette line ins.

All that works OK, but I was wanting to be able to use the tone track to set my cassette VUs to 0db. I found if I set the tone track output to 0db and set my VUs to that, the music tracks were too low (as far as the cassette is concerned). I found that by setting the cassette VUs to 0db with the tone track set to -9db that the software VUs and the cassette VUs all agree and I get the music levels I'm after on the cassette.

There's a difference between digital levels and VU levels and what I've set up seems to work. Anyone else tried this? If so, what was your setup?
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