v5.60pre4 - September 23 2017

[schwa]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Why is this necessary? It almost feels like a bug, to be honest.

The only reason for this was to give people something to work with when they create an envelope in automation-item-only mode, rather than just having a blank lane, or more confusingly, blank space over the media lane. When showing envelopes in the media lane, with this mode enabled, you just have literally nothing to work with and no way to select the envelope to insert an automation item.

It's not at all about being deterministic -- an empty envelope with no automation items doesn't affect anything, it's just like not having an envelope.

If automatically adding an automation item seems useful but generally unwanted we can make it optional, or if it seems pointless we can just take it out, but the media lane issue is definitely a problem.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by schwa

The only reason for this was to give people something to work with when they create an envelope in automation-item-only mode, rather than just having a blank lane, or more confusingly, blank space over the media lane. When showing envelopes in the media lane, with this mode enabled, you just have literally nothing to work with and no way to select the envelope to insert an automation item.

It's not at all about being deterministic -- an empty envelope with no automation items doesn't affect anything, it's just like not having an envelope.

If automatically adding an automation item seems useful but generally unwanted we can make it optional, or if it seems pointless we can just take it out, but the media lane issue is definitely a problem.

I see, you're right, that's a problem indeed. Let's say adding an automation item automatically is not so bad but maybe, since it is something that now exists, it would be more useful if its length were exactly as the selected item. I mean, let's say we have one or several items selected in that track and we "show track envelope" after touching a parameter, the new automation items should start where the first selected item left edge is and end where the last selected item right edge is. Makes sense?

[schwa]

The problem still remains if you delete all of the automation items from an envelope in this mode. Perhaps we automatically move such an envelope into its own envelope lane?

[Robert Randolph]

Originally Posted by schwa

The only reason for this was to give people something to work with when they create an envelope in automation-item-only mode, rather than just having a blank lane, or more confusingly, blank space over the media lane. When showing envelopes in the media lane, with this mode enabled, you just have literally nothing to work with and no way to select the envelope to insert an automation item.

It's not at all about being deterministic -- an empty envelope with no automation items doesn't affect anything, it's just like not having an envelope.

If automatically adding an automation item seems useful but generally unwanted we can make it optional, or if it seems pointless we can just take it out, but the media lane issue is definitely a problem.

I believe what's wanted is that there's a background value that corresponds to whatever value the user input via the parameter's GUI. That value changes dynamically based on user input and is only overridden by the AI itself.

That way the value of the track is always controlled by the user unless the AI is active at that time.

This behaviour would be deterministic as the 'non-ai' value is only set via specific means (gui interaction or parameter modulation).

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by schwa

The problem still remains if you delete all of the automation items from an envelope in this mode. Perhaps we automatically move such an envelope into its own envelope lane?

This sounds like a very sound (and sane) solution. Automatically create automation item (and yes, as MN suggested, if an item is selected, make it the length of that selected item, if nothing is selected, THEN create a one bar AI at the edit cursor position) if envelope is shown in media lane, or do nothing if it's shown in separate lane.

And then have THAT as a checkbox in prefs.

[Robert Randolph]

FWIW, if you investigate how Nuendo/Cubase's Virgin territories, or how FL's automation clips work, this is what I am suggesting.

[Gianfini]

Originally Posted by heda

what about (like in track manager) mirror track selection option? Also, autoscroll to that track in routing matrix if I change track selection in TCP. And maybe option to hide tracks in routing matrix that are hidden in TCP.

Yes I had a FR on the latest request, since you are at it, those addiction would be incredibly useful +1 !!

g

[Gianfini]

Originally Posted by Robert Randolph

I believe what's wanted is that there's a background value that corresponds to whatever value the user input via the parameter's GUI. That value changes dynamically based on user input and is only overridden by the AI itself.

That way the value of the track is always controlled by the user unless the AI is active at that time.

This behaviour would be deterministic as the 'non-ai' value is only set via specific means (gui interaction or parameter modulation).

It means when playing outside AIs it would be the same as not having any automation on that parameter (the current "knob" value from the plugin/track control will be used: it's deterministic tough). During AIs the AIs automation will override the "knob" value and get back to it after AI ends?

g

[Luster]

Originally Posted by Edgemeal

v5.60pre4 - September 23 2017
+ Peaks: add option to rectify peaks/waveforms

Wow, that was fast. Amazing. Many many thanks!

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

where's the rectify option? Not in prefs here?

Wonder if it's worth having it as a threshold setting whereby on small track heights it's rectified and anything above the defined pixel height is back to normal?

You find it in the peak display settings. Looks now a little bit ugly squezzed in that little [...] button but that's ok.

The height-threshold-auto-switch idea is very good. I would suggest to add an horizontal-zoomed-in-threshold-auto-switch. When the time resolution is so fine that you can see individual waves (the oscillation) the rectified version looks kind of misleading IMHO. So yeah, smart switching all the way.

[Robert Randolph]

Originally Posted by Gianfini

It means when playing outside AIs it would be the same as not having any automation on that parameter (the current "knob" value from the plugin/track control will be used: it's deterministic tough). During AIs the AIs automation will override the "knob" value and get back to it after AI ends?

g

That is the idea. There would be 2 potential sources of values for a parameter at a given time:

• Automation Items, which take precedence.
  
• The user input value (entered via GUI or parameter modulation or link)

Basically it's like latch preview mode, except automation items still work.

[mccrabney]

auto-create AI is good for me (a show-AI-in-media lane user). i agree that it could be a little longer, i use double tempo resolution and thus the AIs that are added are tiny. if there's a time selection, i think it should probably set its AI bounds based on that.

[musicbynumbers]

Thanks Luster. missed that when I looked there which doesn't say much for others finding it!

The scaling option as well as the rectify is quite cool.

Will have to put those both in a custom action and put them on a button!

An auto scale depending on Pixel height and maybe width would be amazing but don't know if it's a pain to code that so see what the devs do.

[Sju]

Originally Posted by Edgemeal

+ Envelopes: when envelope bypassed outside of automation items, chase previous automation item value on seek [p=1888928]

So I was testing the AI-only envelopes and found this particular feature a bit confusing. Could someone explain the reasoning behind this please?

What I would expect is that the value of the automated parameter would be unlinked from the envelope completely, unless there is an active automation item in the current play position. I can go back and change, say, the cutoff of the filter as I like, without affecting the areas where it's taken over by the automation. Also when the play position crosses over the end of the AI, the value should return to the "baseline" that it's currently set in the plugin itself.

Is this in any way possible to do in Reaper?

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Sju

Also when the play position crosses over the end of the AI, the value should return to the "baseline" that it's currently set in the plugin itself.

No, it should not. The envelope is not active after AI ends, so the automated parameter should stay where it was last moved to. Which is the last value of the AI.

The option you quoted only happens on seeking the edit cursor, and it makes a lot of sense honestly.

[Sju]

Ok let me rephrase: would it be possible to add it as an option?

In effect there would be two values for the parameters that have automation:
1. the value that's set in the plugin itself
2. the value that temporarily overrides the first value when there's an AI in the play position.

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

The option you quoted only happens on seeking the edit cursor, and it makes a lot of sense honestly.

Also when looping, but could you explain why you prefer it that way?

[EvilDragon]

Because it's logical.

What you propose cannot happen. As soon as plugin's parameter is influenced externally, that IS the new value of the parameter, its new "baseline".

[Sju]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Because it's logical.

Ok, so can you explain the logic to me? An example use case or something?

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

What you propose cannot happen. As soon as plugin's parameter is influenced externally, that IS the new value of the parameter, its new "baseline".

Why? Why can't Reaper keep track of the baseline value and return to that once there's no AI in the play position?

Here's an example use case where the value chasing gets in the way:

Say I've created a short 4-bar synth bassline. It's all good but I wish to add a cutoff sweep in the last bar, from up to down. Now when I press play the cutoff that I've carefully set in the synth suddenly jumps to the value of the first point in the AI. Not good.

Ok lets say I work around this by adding a first point in the AI that corresponds to the baseline value. Ok now the cutoff is at the proper place when I press play. But what if I want to change the baseline cutoff parameter later? And say I have several of these 1-bar AIs at different places. I'll have to go and change all the start and end points for all these AIs to modify the base cutoff at positions _where there is no automation data present_.

To me, the whole point of the AIs is the ability to add these little automation phrases wherever, without having to worry about the base value getting locked, and therefore having to be adjusted through the automation lane instead of the plugin GUI.

[musicbynumbers]

Hmm.

I know at some point we might get takes for AIs so maybe this is not needed but..

For now, if we arm an AI envelope for recording and then go into touch mode whilst looping. All new AIs end up adding up and "playing" over each other.

I was wondering if we could make AIs follow the audio item recording options so that if you have got "create new take" selected then upon each loop the last AI item you recorded into would be muted and stacked ready for you to go through and comp them etc afterwards?

That way when we loop, we don't start getting crazy unexpected results

unless of course we have recording set to the setting whereby normal items would stay unmuted upon looping.

Anyone else like to see this or should we just wait/hope for AI takes?

[schwa]

Sju, the use case you are describing is completely handled by having an envelope with a single value (which sets you are calling the "baseline value"), and automation items wherever you want. Select "automation items do not attach to the underlying envelope" and do not enable the new mode "bypass envelope outside of automation items." Adjust the baseline value by adjusting the single underlying envelope point.

[Sju]

Originally Posted by schwa

Adjust the baseline value by adjusting the single underlying envelope point.

This is the only problem I'm having I think :P I'd rather adjust the parameter in the plugin GUI itself, plus I'd want that "useless" line hidden and only have the AIs visible where there's actual automation. Plus, the envelope point handling can be somewhat coarce in some cases, especially when the lane is not expanded. Would be so much easier to just set it in the plugin GUI.

[ovnis]

I'm OK with that. An option would be a good idea.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by Sju

This is the only problem I'm having I think :P I'd rather adjust the parameter in the plugin GUI itself, plus I'd want that "useless" line hidden and only have the AIs visible where there's actual automation. Plus, the envelope point handling can be somewhat coarce in some cases, especially when the lane is not expanded. Would be so much easier to just set it in the plugin GUI.

But the behavior you want, where there is a persistent underlying value that the parameter returns to, is automation. The purpose of the new mode, which is called "bypass envelope outside of automation items," is to bypass automation outside of automation items, so the parameters are live and not automated.

[musicbynumbers]

Could this above action be edited to also include muting Automation items now we have AI muting?

Thanks devs!

[Sju]

Hmm, yes, I guess what I'm asking then is for the ability to adjust that underlying automation value in the plugin instead of the automation lane. (and hiding that line from the automation lane). Does it make any sense to you? Would this be possible as an option?

[musicbynumbers]

well.. Just getting back into testing all this and trying to break it etc.

Is it me, or do we not yet have a way to punch in and out automation recording at the time selection?

I'm sure that got done and pushed by Airon but I'm missing it maybe?

[schwa]

Originally Posted by Sju

Hmm, yes, I guess what I'm asking then is for the ability to adjust that underlying automation value in the plugin instead of the automation lane.

You can do this in write mode:



But you can't hide the underlying line, and I don't think we should have that be an option. I think the parameter needs to be automated when there's a visible envelope, and not automated otherwise.

[Sju]

Originally Posted by schwa

You can do this in write mode:

Yes, but only when the play position is at zero would it affect the whole project, right? Also, can't tweak in real time/in context of the mix (or I'd have to then clean up the envelope afterwards).

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Sju

Yes, but only when the play position is at zero would it affect the whole project, right? Also, can't tweak in real time/in context of the mix (or I'd have to then clean up the envelope afterwards).

Sju, this might not be want you need but probably good for you to see it as it might help you still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37i1...ature=youtu.be


.

[musicbynumbers]

Last suggestion hopefully!

What about an option for newly created AIs to take the name of the parameter they are being written from when in touch mode etc.

This would make it easier to see what each of them are when using them in the media lane instead of the automation lanes.

Could still have the number but then the control name? like "3-FabFilter_Filter Frequency". Something like that?

[Sju]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Sju, this might not be want you need but probably good for you to see it as it might help you still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37i1...ature=youtu.be


.

Neat, but that's a lot of extra steps to get the current value to apply to the entire project, instead of just tweaking the parameter and having that be the baseline where AIs aren't in effect. Useful but perhaps not exactly the solution in my use case. I'm wondering if I'm explaining this properly or is it just not making any sense in the first place

Restating the feature request, two things I wish would be possible:

1. Tweaking a parameter that has automation items in its envelope lane. That value would become the new baseline value in parts that do not have AIs in them, across the whole project. Possible to tweak it when playback is active, and directly in the plugin's interface where you'd likely tweak other parameters as well (workflow!).

2. Not displaying that baseline value as a line in the envelope (even if it actually is the underlying envelope value outside the AIs). This way the envelope lane would display information only at the parts where there is actual automation happening.

Not displaying the value line in the "empty" parts of the lane would signify that you can tweak the value in the plugin, instead of having to touch the envelope, which is precisely what I'm requesting.

Also, the baseline line does not serve any purpose in my opinion, because the only parts in the automation lane I'm interested in are the AIs, where I actually want to automate the parameter.

And, it would make the arrange view of the project much tidier by only displaying visual information at the relevant places on automation lanes, instead of those lines upon lines of baseline values.

[EvilDragon]

Don't think that'll happen, but nice try

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Last suggestion hopefully!

What about an option for newly created AIs to take the name of the parameter they are being written from when in touch mode etc.

This would make it easier to see what each of them are when using them in the media lane instead of the automation lanes.

Could still have the number but then the control name? like "3-FabFilter_Filter Frequency". Something like that?

Yeah, I like that!

[Edgemeal]

AI Looping not set?


New proj, add track, add item, press V key for volume envelope.

EDIT: Not applicable, 5.60_Pre5+ doesn't work like this anymore.

[Bri1]

Sorry,but envelopes on top of envelopes was always asking for 'troubles'- why did'nt the team just credit juliansander handsomely and make that script native--what else does 1 need?
You cockos peoples spent ages developing envelopes in reaper,why did'nt the team just polish that system to it's next level..
Surely you could have just wrapped what was existing and honed that script natively?
^That lfo script is the 1,and it's 99% already done!
There's a pennies worth.It could be pounds worth. =)
*Disappears*