CSI BCF2000 Some FX not working - others are ok.

Silver · 12-04-2021, 11:02 AM

Hi,

I have set up CSI and my BCF2000 and have created .zon files for the FX parameters.

However, some work, but some don't. For example, none of the waves plugins will work after mapping them, BUT, if I move a parameter on the FX using my mouse, the correct corresponding button/fader/rotary/mute responds on the BCF2000. So, it seems that the 'signal' is only going one way.

What's strange is that other plugins work fine.

And it's not just Waves (although none of them will work) - Decapitator works as expected, but EchoBoy Jr there is no reaction in either direction.

Does anyone have any ideas what might be causing this? I've double-checked the .zon files and I can't see anything different between thost that work and those that don't.

I'm using Reaper 6.42 with Windows 10.

Thanks.

Funkybot · 12-04-2021, 12:06 PM

I'd post the .zon contents of some non-working plugins. Also, are the parameters stepped? Does your surface use encoders?

Encoders+stepped parameters mean some extra configuration to identify the step values otherwise, they don't move or behave oddly.

Silver · 12-04-2021, 01:03 PM

Hi Funkybot,

I have uploaded some files as requested. They are .txt files created from the .zon files as I couldn't upload a .zon file here. I created all of the these except the Soundtoys (EchoBuy Jr) which was in a folder with various Soundtoys plugins. As I said, Decapitator works fine.

Regarding your question, I'm afraid that's way beyond my current knowledge. I am using a BCF2000 - I don't know if I am using encoders or stepped parameters. If it's important, could you help me find out somehow?

I'm pretty proud of myself that (with your earlier help) I've managed to get this far and I know how to create .zon files, many of which are working.

When I get this sorted out, my next step is to explore Subzones, but that's a complete mystery at the moment. I know how to create the subzone .zon files, but no idea how to create buttons on the controller to move to and back from the subzones.

Edit .... I think I've discovered what stepped parameters are - the idea of fixed locations within a parameter, so yes, I have some of them. In ALL the files (both working and non) the 3 parameters controlling Reaper (bypass/Delta and Dry/Wet) all work fine.

Funkybot · 12-06-2021, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver

Hi Funkybot,

I have uploaded some files as requested. They are .txt files created from the .zon files as I couldn't upload a .zon file here. I created all of the these except the Soundtoys (EchoBuy Jr) which was in a folder with various Soundtoys plugins. As I said, Decapitator works fine.

Regarding your question, I'm afraid that's way beyond my current knowledge. I am using a BCF2000 - I don't know if I am using encoders or stepped parameters. If it's important, could you help me find out somehow?

I'm pretty proud of myself that (with your earlier help) I've managed to get this far and I know how to create .zon files, many of which are working.

When I get this sorted out, my next step is to explore Subzones, but that's a complete mystery at the moment. I know how to create the subzone .zon files, but no idea how to create buttons on the controller to move to and back from the subzones.

Edit .... I think I've discovered what stepped parameters are - the idea of fixed locations within a parameter, so yes, I have some of them. In ALL the files (both working and non) the 3 parameters controlling Reaper (bypass/Delta and Dry/Wet) all work fine.

Hi Silver, what you've posted there are not complete fx zone files. It's just the parameter list (looks like you list CSI generate the fx param list).

So you have this...

Code:

Zone "VST3: CLA-2A Stereo (Waves)"
	SelectedTrackNavigator
	FXParam 0 "Bypass"
	FXParam 1 "Bank"
	FXParam 2 "Gain"
	FXParam 3 "Peak Reduction"
	FXParam 4 "Comp/Limiter"
ZoneEnd

But you need to assign the FXParams to "widgets" in your CSI device. Hypothetical example:

Code:

Zone "VST3: CLA-2A Stereo (Waves)"
SelectedTrackNavigator
ButtonA1      FXParam 0 "Bypass"
ButtonA2      FXParam 1 "Bank"
ButtonA3      FXParam 2 "Gain"
Fader1        FXParam 3 "Peak Reduction"
Fader2        FXParam 4 "Comp/Limiter"
ZoneEnd

So you need to look at your .mst file and figure out what the widgets are called (Buttons, Faders, Rotaries, then use the fx.zon files to assign those widgets to the FX Parameters as shown in the example above.

The other important thing is the Navigator. Your two options are:

SelectedTrackNavigator
FocusedFXNavigator

...for SelectedTrackNavigator you'll probably need some way of activating the FX zone (like an FXMenu). If you want to keep things simple, particularly on a surface with no displays, you can use the FocusedFXNavigator. That will activate the FX map when you activate the FX in Reaper.

Silver · 12-07-2021, 01:16 AM

Thanks for your reply Funkybot.

I don't know what happened, but I must have uploaded the wrong files here. Apologies for that. I can confirm that the FX parameters are assigned like in your example. I have lots of these (a range of different companies) which are working correctly, but none of the Waves plugins do. This problems is not restricted to Waves, Izotope plugins are not working. Some Soundtoys work, others do not.

As I wrote above, if I move the parameter on a Waves plugin using my mouse, the corresponding control on the BCF moves. But moving the control on the BCF has no effect. Also, the parameters for Reaper (Bypass/Wet/Delta) works as expected on the Waves plugins - in other words, they 'receive' the message from the BCF.

So, to recap:

Decapitator works as expected
EchoBoy Jr - no signal either way

CLA 76 mono - When I move the parameter using the mouse, the BCF follows - i.e moving the input with my mouse results in Fader 1 moving on the BCF. But, when I move Fader1 on the BCF, nothing happens with the plugin.

Izotope - moving the paramater with the mouse makes the BCF Fader move. Moving the BCF Fader results in nothing happening on the plugin.

There are other plugins that also produce the same state as the CLA

Other plugins that work correctly are SSL Native, PA Shadow Hills.

I have studied carefully the different .zon files and I can't see any difference between those that work and those that do not.

Funkybot · 12-07-2021, 01:08 PM

I think what's going on is that you're leaving things in your .zon file that you're not using and the CSI parser doesn't know what to do.

Try this...

Code:

Zone "VST3: CLA-76 Mono (Waves)"
SelectedTrackNavigator
/	FXParam 0 "Bypass"
/	FXParam 1 "Bank"
Fader1	FXParam 2 "Input"
Fader2	FXParam 3 "Output"
Fader3	FXParam 4 "Attack"
Fader4	FXParam 5 "Release"
Mute1	FXParam 6 "Ratio"
Mute2	FXParam 7 "Analog"
/	FXParam 8 "Revision"
/	FXParam 9 "Meter"
/	FXParam 10 "Comp Off"
Mute8	FXParam 11 "Bypass"
Rotary8	FXParam 12 "Wet"
Mute7	FXParam 13 "Delta"
ZoneEnd

...I've commented out the unused lines.

Or better yet, this...

Code:

Zone "VST3: CLA-76 Mono (Waves)"
SelectedTrackNavigator
Fader1	FXParam 2 "Input"
Fader2	FXParam 3 "Output"
Fader3	FXParam 4 "Attack"
Fader4	FXParam 5 "Release"
Mute1	FXParam 6 "Ratio"
Mute2	FXParam 7 "Analog"
Mute8	FXParam 11 "Bypass"
Rotary8	FXParam 12 "Wet"
Mute7	FXParam 13 "Delta"
ZoneEnd

Silver · 12-07-2021, 01:39 PM

Thanks Funkybot ....

but unfortunately it hasn't solved the problem. Just loaded the CLA76 mono after amending the .zon file as per your suggestion. Same situation - BCF Fader 1 moves when I move the input with the mouse. When I move the BCF Fader1 nothing happens with the plugin.

Extremely frustrating!

Silver · 12-07-2021, 01:45 PM

And there is another difference I've just discovered.

As I said, when I move the input on the CLA76, Fader 1 moves on the BCF. If I move Fader 1 nothing at all happens.

I've just tried the same thing with the Izotope Breath control. When I change the parameter with the mouse the fader moves on the BCF. When I move the Fader on BCF, nothing happens on the plugin BUT, when I release the Fader, it returns to the position seen on the plugin. This doesn't happen with the CLA76.

Stranger and stranger - but still frustrating.

Funkybot · 12-07-2021, 02:27 PM

Ok...let's try this:

1. Try the VST2 version if you can
2. Try non-Waves plugins (maybe it's the VST Shell thing interfering)

Silver · 12-07-2021, 03:35 PM

It's not just Waves plugins - it happens with others too.

Funkybot · 12-07-2021, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver

It's not just Waves plugins - it happens with others too.

But some plugins work just fine?

1. Open up Reaper's action list
2. Type in "CSI" in the search bar
3. Locate the action that says something like show input from surface
4. Move some faders and encoders and press some buttons

Are these actions showing up in the ReaConsole logs?

If not, double check your .mst files, and your MIDI input and output ports in Reaper as well as CSI. Remember: in Reaper's MIDI devices, the BCF ports need to be disabled. Let me know what happens either way.

Also, whenever you change anything in a plugin.zon file, you need to 1) remove all instances of the plugin from your project, and then 2) run the Reaper action "Refresh all control surfaces" before you 3) re-insert the plugin and try again. Or just fully close and reopen Reaper. Changes to .zon files won't happen in realtime.

Silver · 12-07-2021, 04:43 PM

Yes, some plugins work fine.

I followed your instruction to "show input from surfaces" and I see the actions appearing in ReaScript console output.

I can confirm BCF2000 is disabled in both areas of Midi Devices.

If making changes, I always save the .zon file, and either refresh the surface or close and restart Reaper.

Running "show output to Surfaces" when using the CLA76 or Izotope Breath Control - the actions appear in the Reascript console.

And just now running "show input from Surfaces" whilst trying to operate Izotope Breath Control/CLA76, I see the actions listed in Reascript Console when I move the faders, but there is no effect on the plugins.

I hope that all makes sense.

Funkybot · 12-07-2021, 04:46 PM

If you can, just .zip your entire CSI folder and post it here. I just want to take a look at what's going on with it.

Silver · 12-07-2021, 04:56 PM

Thanks - the file should be here.

Funkybot · 12-07-2021, 07:18 PM

Ok, your CSI folder is more chaotic than I was expecting. So...hard to say what's causing issues. You had two sets of BCF2000 zone files there (the CSI 1.1 files and a CSI 1.0 file) mixed in with some FX zones. Then you had FX .zon's all over the place. You also had rawfxzone.txt files mixed in there. There could be a lot of stuff causing CSI to breakdown.

A good rule of thumb to keep in mind: don't put anything that doesn't need to be in a CSI folder, in a CSI folder. CSI has a "parser", which is a program that reads the files in advance. In the past, bugs have been identified in the parser that caused things to break. It's pretty good now, but you still don't want to have extra .txt files that aren't ready to be .zon files yet, or unassigned commands in your .zon file, or just non-CSI actions listed.

For instance, you have a bunch of these in a .zon file:

Code:

Fader5     N/A

...N/A is not a CSI action. For all we know, that could be breaking things. You want to use:

Code:

Fader5     NoAction

I also see a bunch of display commands. Like an FXMenu with displays, Sends with displays, etc. But the BCF2000 doesn't have displays right? So I'm not sure what those are doing in your .zon files.

My question immediately became: how are the fx.zon's being activated with an FXMenu if there are no displays? Just counting the FX slot on the selected track? So instead, just for the sake of testing out the below approach, I'm suggesting you stick to a FocusedFXNavigator for now.

The goal is to troubleshoot, and we do that be stripping things down to the basics and starting simple, then slowly expanding from there.

So let's try to get back to basics.

1. Close Reaper

2. Back up your CSI folder and move it somewhere else [entirely outside of the Reaper resource path] for safe keeping. You'll eventually need it later on.

3. Replace it with the attached CSI folder and nothing else. Don't start adding any additional .zon files yet or anything like that. The CSI.ini file is there just as it was, so that should still work. Shouldn't need to do any additional configuring.

4. Launch Reaper.

5. Make sure the basics of the surface work at controlling Reaper things. Note: I got rid of the FXMenu and Send zones so don't expect those to do anything right now.

7. If things are working so far, load an instance of the VST3 Waves CLA-76 Stereo onto a track in Reaper.

Question: with the FX window in focus, does it work now?

If yes, I'd suggest you study what I did with the FX.zon files for that plugin and notice how I organized it - I'd recommend using it as a template and fitting your future fx.zon files to match it. Some of use Excel sheets for FX zone file creation. Anyway, if it works, start cleaning up your CSI fx.zon files and slowly adding additional FX.zon files back in. If you need help getting the Sends and FXMenu working, add those zones back in to the surface folder.

Now if the CLA-76 still doesn't work, then are you 100% sure the name in Reaper matches the name in the .zone header exactly? No one renamed a plugin anywhere?

Otherwise...I'm all out of ideas.

Silver · 12-07-2021, 07:49 PM

Hi Funkybot

All the files in the CSI folder I sent were there when I downloaded it. The only files I added were .zon files, but there were many that came in the download.

Previously I was activating fx.zons from the select button on the BCF. This always worked as expected.

I followed your detailed instructions very carefully. Everything was good up to point 5.

Point 7 - When I loaded the CLA76 into the FX window (in focus) the BCF shot into the correct positions for the parameters as set up in the .zon file you created.

But - there is no reaction in the plugin when I move any of the BCF controls. However, as before, using the mouse to control the CLA76 results in the BCF following whatever parameter I have adjusted with the mouse. The fader and buttons on the BCF all follow mouse moves.

Thanks very much for trying to solve this - I really appreciate it.

Funkybot · 12-07-2021, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver

Hi Funkybot

All the files in the CSI folder I sent were there when I downloaded it. The only files I added were .zon files, but there were many that came in the download.

Previously I was activating fx.zons from the select button on the BCF. This always worked as expected.

I followed your detailed instructions very carefully. Everything was good up to point 5.

Point 7 - When I loaded the CLA76 into the FX window (in focus) the BCF shot into the correct positions for the parameters as set up in the .zon file you created.

But - there is no reaction in the plugin when I move any of the BCF controls. However, as before, using the mouse to control the CLA76 results in the BCF following whatever parameter I have adjusted with the mouse. The fader and buttons on the BCF all follow mouse moves.

Thanks very much for trying to solve this - I really appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm not sure why the communication is only going one-way with those plugins. I think Waves and Izotope may do weird shell/wrapper things. That's the best I got for you otherwise. I have a few Waves plugins but honestly, don't use them, so I don't' think I did CSI mappings.

Are you using the latest CSI? Version 1.1? As found here:

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42437/CSI%20v1_1.zip

You can always pop on over to the CSI device setup thread for more assistance.

Silver · 12-08-2021, 04:53 AM

Thanks, Funkybot - I have posted as you suggested.