Old 03-18-2023, 01:47 PM   #1
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Default MIDI and audio on single track

Just to be sure, can you guys verify that it is not possible to record midi and audio on a single track without some other track feeding it.

I'm trying to record audio from a guitar and also midi cc from pedals. I have the midi cc going in from a child track and that works but I wanted to make sure it is not possible to do it all from a single track as it would require 2 DIFFERENT inputs.

I didn't know if there was a vst that could grab another input or some trick I was missing.

Thanks.

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Old 03-18-2023, 01:56 PM   #2
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Just to be sure, can you guys verify that it is not possible to record midi and audio on a single track without some other track feeding it.

I'm trying to record audio from a guitar and also midi cc from pedals. I have the midi cc going in from a child track and that works but I wanted to make sure it is not possible to do it all from a single track as it would require 2 DIFFERENT inputs.

I didn't know if there was a vst that could grab another input or some trick I was missing.

Thanks.

Hi Coach, I'm a big midi guy, and giving that Reaper can do most anything, I'm not absolutely positively, positively sure it can't do midi and audio on the same track, but I'd bet not.

At any rate, it's a big can of worms and I wouldn't go there if I was you.
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Old 03-18-2023, 02:14 PM   #3
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Hi Coach, I'm a big midi guy, and giving that Reaper can do most anything, I'm not absolutely positively, positively sure it can't do midi and audio on the same track, but I'd bet not.

At any rate, it's a big can of worms and I wouldn't go there if I was you.
I like worms...... It is easy to do with two tracks to record both on 1 track but was hoping there was a way with 1.
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Old 03-18-2023, 02:25 PM   #4
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I like worms...... It is easy to do with two tracks to record both on 1 track but was hoping there was a way with 1.
You can do it. Record your guitar, switch to MIDI input and then record your pedal.
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Old 03-18-2023, 02:25 PM   #5
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You can do it. Record your guitar, switch to MIDI input and then record your pedal.
This is a live performance. No can do. :-)
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Old 03-18-2023, 02:40 PM   #6
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This is a live performance. No can do. :-)
Ah, then you have to use a second track.
Are you cosplaying me with this new picture? And whose eye is it?
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Old 03-18-2023, 02:57 PM   #7
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Ah, then you have to use a second track.
Are you cosplaying me with this new picture? And whose eye is it?
He he I didn't even notice your eye!
Vanessa williams
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Old 03-18-2023, 03:56 PM   #8
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Default Anyone willing to show a right channel eye...?

😀😀😀😀
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Old 03-18-2023, 04:09 PM   #9
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That's really creepy with multiple eyes. I'm going to change my avatar soon I promise. Also I have no idea what cosplaying means because I'm old.
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Old 03-18-2023, 04:27 PM   #10
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That's really creepy with multiple eyes. I'm going to change my avatar soon I promise. Also I have no idea what cosplaying means because I'm old.
Let’s say copycat. Also there is a user (I don't remember the name), but the eye on their avatar looks very similar to mine and the way the photo is done too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay
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Old 03-18-2023, 04:36 PM   #11
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This is a live performance. No can do. :-)
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Ah, then you have to use a second track.
Are you cosplaying me with this new picture? And whose eye is it?
I setup a guitar track with the Native Instrument B4 Leslie as a plugin, and using the sustain pedal of my midi keyboard to switch from slow Leslie to fast Leslie.

Using one track for the input of the guitar with the Leslie plugin, and a second track with the input set to my midi keyboard for the sustain pedal, and routing it over to the first track so the B4 Leslie gets the midi pedal data.

Works like a charm both playing through it live, or hitting record in REAPER and recording it with the Leslie switching from the second track data.
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Old 03-18-2023, 04:57 PM   #12
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I setup a guitar track with the Native Instrument B4 Leslie as a plugin, and using the sustain pedal of my midi keyboard to switch from slow Leslie to fast Leslie.

Using one track for the input of the guitar with the Leslie plugin, and a second track with the input set to my midi keyboard for the sustain pedal, and routing it over to the first track so the B4 Leslie gets the midi pedal data.

Works like a charm both playing through it live, or hitting record in REAPER and recording it with the Leslie switching from the second track data.

Yeah that seems to be the best setup in Reaper. That's what I'm currently going to be doing and it works fine here using the two tracks. Maybe this will challenge the devs to think of ways to bring in multiple inputs into a single track. What???
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:10 PM   #13
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Yeah that seems to be the best setup in Reaper. That's what I'm currently going to be doing and it works fine here using the two tracks. Maybe this will challenge the devs to think of ways to bring in multiple inputs into a single track. What???
Like a numeric selection for how many record buttons we want per each track.

While we're at it, what if I want to record audio from my UMC1820, midi from my UMC204HD plus additional audio from the UMC204HD. Guess we'd need to be able to specify multiple audio devices like we can with midi to do something like that.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:11 PM   #14
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Being able to record midi and audio to 2 separate items on 1 track would be awesome!
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:17 PM   #15
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Like a numeric selection for how many record buttons we want per each track.

While we're at it, what if I want to record audio from my UMC1820, midi from my UMC204HD plus additional audio from the UMC204HD. Guess we'd need to be able to specify multiple audio devices like we can with midi to do something like that.
I agree with you Glennbo, unlimited audio and MIDI sources on a given track with an included mixer !!!
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:22 PM   #16
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I agree with you Glennbo, unlimited audio and MIDI sources on a given track with an included mixer !!!
If we could just specify a midi device to also capture with audio, I would be happy and use it. I have several midi controlled audio plugins that I use on guitars, and it would be nice to have it all on a single track.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:27 PM   #17
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If we could just specify a midi device to also capture with audio, I would be happy and use it. I have several midi controlled audio plugins that I use on guitars, and it would be nice to have it all on a single track.
Agreed that does seem to have lots of practical applications unlike my unlimited audio and MIDI input idea. But Devs like a challenge so I'm betting they'll come up with the unlimited solution.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:46 PM   #18
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Agreed that does seem to have lots of practical applications unlike my unlimited audio and MIDI input idea. But Devs like a challenge so I'm betting they'll come up with the unlimited solution.
The fact that a fair amount of audio plugins have the ability to be controlled via midi would be enough reason to allow incoming midi on an audio track.
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:50 PM   #19
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While we're at it, what if I want to record audio from my UMC1820, midi from my UMC204HD plus additional audio from the UMC204HD. Guess we'd need to be able to specify multiple audio devices like we can with midi to do something like that.
Multiple audio devices would be great, but I suspect there is some system level reason it can't be done. Otherwise would be a no brainer.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:21 PM   #20
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Multiple audio devices would be great, but I suspect there is some system level reason it can't be done. Otherwise would be a no brainer.
In reality, there would need to be some kind of sync between audio devices, so that would be a pretty tall order. My UMC1820 has an ADA8200 plugged into it over two ADAT cables. One to get the additional 8 channels of audio input, but the other is sending clock the other direction to the expansion unit, so they sync and act like one unit.

Being able to input midi on an audio track for FX that can be midi controlled though, seems like a thing that might be possible, and would absolutely have value to a lot of users IMO.
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:28 PM   #21
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In reality, there would need to be some kind of sync between audio devices, so that would be a pretty tall order. My UMC1820 has an ADA8200 plugged into it over two ADAT cables. One to get the additional 8 channels of audio input, but the other is sending clock the other direction to the expansion unit, so they sync and act like one unit.

Being able to input midi on an audio track for FX that can be midi controlled though, seems like a thing that might be possible, and would absolutely have value to a lot of users IMO.
The sync is handled pretty well by Audio MIDI Setup on Mac and I've never encountered an issue when doing this on Windows with third party software like ASIO Link Pro and Voicemeeter
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Old 03-18-2023, 06:38 PM   #22
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The sync is handled pretty well by Audio MIDI Setup on Mac and I've never encountered an issue when doing this on Windows with third party software like ASIO Link Pro and Voicemeeter
Are all the audio devices reading a clock from the 3rd party software or something?
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Old 03-18-2023, 09:13 PM   #23
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Are all the audio devices reading a clock from the 3rd party software or something?
I've only seen it explicitly mentioned in Mac



I'd assume the Windows ones are doing that too, or I've just never run into any issue of drift or sample drops.

The most I've run was a Tascam 1641 + Tascam 16x08 + Windows loopback stereo in order to also record a YouTube playlist in time with the recording.
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Old 03-19-2023, 06:34 AM   #24
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It can be done !!! Just in....

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...5&postcount=13

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Old 03-19-2023, 07:54 AM   #25
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Pretty cool for live playing through REAPER. I just tried it with my Native Instruments B4 Leslie on guitar, and it works for playing live . . .

But, it doesn't seem to record CC64 when I press and release the damper pedal. Maybe there's a way to make that happen too, but I haven't found it so far.
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Old 03-19-2023, 07:56 AM   #26
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Pretty cool for live playing through REAPER. I just tried it with my Native Instruments B4 Leslie on guitar, and it works for playing live . . .

But, it doesn't seem to record CC64 when I press and release the damper pedal. Maybe there's a way to make that happen too, but I haven't found it so far.
Make sure to arm it in the envelopes panel and also select either touch, latch or write for the mode. Then record enable your track and record.
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Old 03-19-2023, 08:38 AM   #27
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Make sure to arm it in the envelopes panel and also select either touch, latch or write for the mode. Then record enable your track and record.
Thanks, I'm going to go try that now . . . Woot, that werkz!!!
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Old 03-19-2023, 09:54 AM   #28
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Well that’s just a completely different thing! You’re using the control path rather than midi input. And writing envelope data rather than recording midi. I was actually about to mention that your might be able to write that envelope using the two track method. Either record or don’t (monitor only) the midi track, but write the envelope on the audio track at the same time. But…

1) Automation data does not generally have as much timing resolution as midi can. 960ppq at reasonable tempos is faster than block size.

B) It only works for parameters that are learnable and envelopable. Many plugins - especially synths - have internal connections from specific CCs to parameters which are not exposed to Reaper in any way.

How much either of those matters in a given situation is up to you.

I personally think that tracks are cheap and would prefer to avoid the control path for things which are track-specific and would just rather have the midi to mess with rather than automation (though honestly the way they’ve messed up CCs in recent versions isn’t much better). I might even use three tracks: raw audio and midi both routed (possibly as children) to an “amp” track.
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Old 03-19-2023, 10:28 AM   #29
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Well that’s just a completely different thing! You’re using the control path rather than midi input. And writing envelope data rather than recording midi. I was actually about to mention that your might be able to write that envelope using the two track method. Either record or don’t (monitor only) the midi track, but write the envelope on the audio track at the same time. But…

1) Automation data does not generally have as much timing resolution as midi can. 960ppq at reasonable tempos is faster than block size.
For the simple damper pedal fast/slow Leslie switching I have setup as a track template, the resolution is likely not going to be an issue. If I were using a variable foot controller for wahwah FX or something, it might be less forgiving.

Quote:
B) It only works for parameters that are learnable and envelopable. Many plugins - especially synths - have internal connections from specific CCs to parameters which are not exposed to Reaper in any way.

How much either of those matters in a given situation is up to you.

I personally think that tracks are cheap and would prefer to avoid the control path for things which are track-specific and would just rather have the midi to mess with rather than automation (though honestly the way they’ve messed up CCs in recent versions isn’t much better). I might even use three tracks: raw audio and midi both routed (possibly as children) to an “amp” track.
I kept the two track SG guitar and Leslie control track template I posted a pic of, but I also saved a new track template using the single track method that Coachz posted. Next time I want to use a Leslie guitar, I'll go for the single track version, but if some unforeseen issue arises, I can fall back on the two track version.
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Old 03-19-2023, 10:45 AM   #30
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If wanting the MIDI tracks co-mingling with the audio tracks is around keeping track of the MIDI tracks: Change the default preference to embed MIDI into the project to make MIDI files. That leads to the MIDI files following your time stamp preferences. That leads to being able to easily link them up to the audio takes later on. That leads to being able to just let the MIDI files collect in the MIDI recording track out of sight until you need to grab one.

Re: Multiple audio interfaces

The 2nd step of sync'ing all sample rate clocks to a master device when making an aggregate device is the critical step. Easy for interfaces with word clock I/O or a digital audio input.

When you want to aggregate a virtual audio device or some hardware that doesn't have word clock or a digital input is when you have to try sync'ing over the data connection which is pointedly not recommended. It WILL lose sync and crash at some point!

My workflow recording with a Roland TD-50X drum kit in aggregate device with the main interface: This is one of those rogue devices with no clock input possible. (And with all the rest of the capability on this thing, Roland should feel bad!)

Aggregate device of the main interface + the Roland TD-50X
Tick the box in Audio MIDI Setup to make the main interface resample to the Roland!

[This is counter intuitive. I've found that audio interfaces often have features to resolve jittery incoming sample rate clock. That leads to the interface putting up with chasing the Roland easier than the other way around. Same deal with virtual audio devices in aggregate device.]

I record it to single 32 channel files at 32 bit floating point. The Roland spits the digital samples out at 32 bit float and you can just capture them 1:1 at any level (even above zero) and never have to soundcheck anything. Just this part alone almost makes up for the clock input faux pas.

I record a MIDI track along with in a separate track.
The MIDI track is a safety!
The audio system crashes about 1 in 50 takes from clock drift. The MIDI is still intact when this happens. I can run the MIDI back to the Roland and get the performance back. And recording single 32 channel files at 32 bit float still feels impressive or something.
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Old 03-19-2023, 11:43 AM   #31
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I record a MIDI track along with in a separate track.
The MIDI track is a safety!
The audio system crashes about 1 in 50 takes from clock drift. The MIDI is still intact when this happens. I can run the MIDI back to the Roland and get the performance back. And recording single 32 channel files at 32 bit float still feels impressive or something.
I was kind of joking about using my two audio interfaces at once, but I do have both a UMC1820/ADA8200 combo for exclusive REAPER use, and a UMC204HD for all other audio. I can use the midi in/outs from both in REAPER, and in Linux, I could select one for audio in, and the other for audio out if I wanted.

The UMC204HD has no word clock or even S/PDIF that it could chase clock from the other unit, so I don't think it would even work well if I did create an aggregate device.

BTW, when I first got my V-Drums back around 2001, I'd record only the midi, then one at a time record the audio for kick, snare, toms, Etc., by using a midi note filter to solo just the kick, then snare and so on. My TD-6V only has stereo outs, but I'd end up with multitrack audio from it. Once I got Drumkit From Hell Superior (the predecessor to Superior Drummer 2), I quit using the sounds from my V-Drums.
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Old 03-19-2023, 03:54 PM   #32
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Sample rate clock sync is still the make or break element. Word clock or digital audio sync'd devices will run for years until the power cuts off one day. Goes from 100 back down to zero trying to sync over USB or virtually.

There's some modern slickness now with a lot of this. Getting the multiple channels digitally from these devices. Stuff in Reaper like the track offset built in. (Useful for that extra MIDI round trip.)

The one thing that blows my mind is specifically Roland's lack of word clock or a digital input on these otherwise flagship-like devices of theirs! They could be SO bulletproof and rule everything!

Good workaround for that V-Drum kit back then!
The album I recorded around that time was a V-Drum kit, live vocals with live fx, my guitar, guitar synth modules and Line6 fake amp and all the delays and loopers all patched into a Mackie 1402 and mixed on the fly. The live stereo is all that was recorded. It turned out just well enough to piss me off about the lost opportunity. And MIDI theremin. Can't forget about that!
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Old 03-19-2023, 04:30 PM   #33
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Sample rate clock sync is still the make or break element. Word clock or digital audio sync'd devices will run for years until the power cuts off one day. Goes from 100 back down to zero trying to sync over USB or virtually.
That's kind of what I thought. I started out using two M-Audio Delta 2496 cards, and fed clock over S/PDIF from one to the other, so they both were reading the same clock. I did find out however, that just reading the same clock doesn't make them sample accurate. I was using them for 4 channel acoustic drum recording, and found I needed to hand align because the 2nd card, while locked to the same clock, was always behind by a sample or two.

The same seems to be true of my current UMC1820/ADA8200, but the seven inputs I'm using for acoustic drums are all on the UMC1820 side, so it all lines up on the money. The second ADA8200 unit is reading clock over ADAT, and though it's always a sample or two different than the UMC1820, there is no drift (due to one clock), so the alignment will be the same, no matter where you look in the project.

Quote:
There's some modern slickness now with a lot of this. Getting the multiple channels digitally from these devices. Stuff in Reaper like the track offset built in. (Useful for that extra MIDI round trip.)

The one thing that blows my mind is specifically Roland's lack of word clock or a digital input on these otherwise flagship-like devices of theirs! They could be SO bulletproof and rule everything!

Good workaround for that V-Drum kit back then!
The album I recorded around that time was a V-Drum kit, live vocals with live fx, my guitar, guitar synth modules and Line6 fake amp and all the delays and loopers all patched into a Mackie 1402 and mixed on the fly. The live stereo is all that was recorded. It turned out just well enough to piss me off about the lost opportunity. And MIDI theremin. Can't forget about that!
I would have appreciated realtime multi-channel digital output. Back in the early 2000s I had to run a project start to end for each drum part I wanted to capture as isolated stereo audio. A three minute song took about twenty minutes to run the drums off from midi to audio, but it worked, and worked well.

For as much money as that unit you have costs, it should have wordclock, ADAT, and S/PDIF. I suppose using the individual analog audio outputs keep working, even when the USB audio interface gets whacked, but why would you want to convert to analog, only to feed to another audio interface to convert it back to digital.

A MIDI theremin? I'm intrigued.
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Old 03-20-2023, 11:55 AM   #34
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The TD-50X belongs to a client I'm working with. So I worked out how to work with it. Yeah, I'd almost surely reject it for something else that had word clock i/o shopping for myself!

And that my reaction exactly! For the cost, the abilities it has, and already the full electronics shop of jacks and ports on the thing, missing word clock is beyond a glaring faux pas! It seriously cripples the unit's abilities and stability and makes it feel 2nd class.

And using it on a live stage you pretty much would have to forgo connecting digitally as an interface and use the analog outs old school.

But I figured out what to do with it. Reaper's a champ. And all is well.

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why would you want to convert to analog, only to feed to another audio interface to convert it back to digital.

A MIDI theremin? I'm intrigued.
My thinking exactly! You... would not! I'll say again that being able to just roll in their digital samples 1:1 at 32 bit float with no worry over levels is extremely convenient!

Having to work with their analog outputs would just suck. You'd have to reroute their internal mixer for every kit to put the important tracks to the 8 outputs. Then soundcheck every kit to gain stage the levels.


I think I had a unit called Pitch Rider that was intended for horn players to make MIDI track to them. Plugged the theremin into that and used a couple random sound modules. I'd put a sound on step and then waving my hand or the guitar neck I'm holding in front of it would get this burst of impossible cascading notes. Lots of silliness, irreverence, and punk rock attitude with this! Sometimes I'd try to play longer held single notes along with the guitar and it would be just about impossible to be accurate enough.

Last edited by serr; 03-20-2023 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 03-20-2023, 01:26 PM   #35
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Well that’s just a completely different thing! You’re using the control path rather than midi input. And writing envelope data rather than recording midi. I was actually about to mention that your might be able to write that envelope using the two track method. Either record or don’t (monitor only) the midi track, but write the envelope on the audio track at the same time. But…

1) Automation data does not generally have as much timing resolution as midi can. 960ppq at reasonable tempos is faster than block size.

B) It only works for parameters that are learnable and envelopable. Many plugins - especially synths - have internal connections from specific CCs to parameters which are not exposed to Reaper in any way.

How much either of those matters in a given situation is up to you.

I personally think that tracks are cheap and would prefer to avoid the control path for things which are track-specific and would just rather have the midi to mess with rather than automation (though honestly the way they’ve messed up CCs in recent versions isn’t much better). I might even use three tracks: raw audio and midi both routed (possibly as children) to an “amp” track.
I so agree.. but he asked for one track, I delivered.
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Old 03-20-2023, 01:58 PM   #36
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It's working here. I do have to send my CC69 a few times to start before ReaControlMIDI responds even though it has learned it and been stored as a ReaControlMIDI preset. However this is after the track is saved as a track template with envelopes and recalled. Really makes cropping and copying easy. CC69 changes my helix snapshots. Thanks again !!

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Old 03-20-2023, 02:45 PM   #37
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The TD-50X belongs to a client I'm working with. So I worked out how to work with it. Yeah, I'd almost surely reject it for something else that had word clock i/o shopping for myself!
Ahh, that's good it's not yours coz I was thinking you got burned.

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And that my reaction exactly! For the cost, the abilities it has, and already the full electronics shop of jacks and ports on the thing, missing word clock is beyond a glaring faux pas! It seriously cripples the unit's abilities and stability and makes it feel 2nd class.
I've had a lot of Roland gear through the years that I used with drums, and I've always liked their samples, plus some things a kit of V-Drums can do is well thought out, like popping the hihat actually works to do stuff like play 1/4 note foot splashes, but their interfacing beyond playing a kit that plays and pretty much sounds like a real kit seems to be where it ends. My current kit of V-Drums are strictly used as a midi controller, and doesn't even have any audio connected that REAPER could use.

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And using it on a live stage you pretty much would have to forgo connecting digitally as an interface and use the analog outs old school.
That I wouldn't mind. I've used my TD-6V live some, and it only has one pair of 1/4" stereo outputs, which was fine for live.

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But I figured out what to do with it. Reaper's a champ. And all is well.
The fact that you are able to use its digital audio interface at all as part of an aggregate audio device is impressive.

My thinking exactly! You... would not! I'll say again that being able to just roll in their digital samples 1:1 at 32 bit float with no worry over levels is extremely convenient!

Having to work with their analog outputs would just suck. You'd have to reroute their internal mixer for every kit to put the important tracks to the 8 outputs. Then soundcheck every kit to gain stage the levels.[/QUOTE]

Way more work with a less quality end result. I'm kind of glad that my ancient V-Drums brain is so limited. Otherwise, I'd be trying to use it as something more than a soundless midi controller. I've often wondered why Roland doesn't offer a V-Drums kit that is simply a midi controller. They could sell them for a lot less. Same thing with their GR systems for guitar. Make that without any sound module (hex pickup to midi out) for less money, and I'll buy it!

Quote:
I think I had a unit called Pitch Rider that was intended for horn players to make MIDI track to them. Plugged the theremin into that and used a couple random sound modules. I'd put a sound on step and then waving my hand or the guitar neck I'm holding in front of it would get this burst of impossible cascading notes. Lots of silliness, irreverence, and punk rock attitude with this! Sometimes I'd try to play longer held single notes along with the guitar and it would be just about impossible to be accurate enough.
That sounds like total fun!

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I so agree.. but he asked for one track, I delivered.
It works for me!

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Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
It's working here. I do have to send my CC69 a few times to start before ReaControlMIDI responds even though it has learned it and been stored as a ReaControlMIDI preset. However this is after the track is saved as a track template with envelopes and recalled. Really makes cropping and copying easy. CC69 changes my helix snapshots. Thanks again !!
The one track damper pedal fast/slow switch for the Native Instruments B4 Leslie I setup works first try every time, but it's only using one CC but it's a simple on or off momentary switch.
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