Old 08-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #1
Baconaire
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Default Do I need a dedicated Preamp?

I am relatively new to home recording in this era having started using a cassette 4 track in the 80-90's. Took a break to have a family and now I'm getting back into writing and recording. The number of options is overwhelming. Of course budget is an issue. Here is my current setup:

-I have decent low end mics(SM57s, a Sterling Condenser, an M-Audio large diaphragm condenser, MXL stereo condenser).

-My interface is a Behringer 4 track USC404HD (btw for $100 I thinks its incredible. I also have access to a Focusrite 2i2, and a Yamaha USB mixer, and the Berhinger with the 'Midas inspired' preamps sounds noticeably better to me. For anyone starting out on a budget this is the one by far!)

-Mainly I use one of my two Vibrochamps to record and am generally happy with my tone. I also have a Bugera 1x12 EL34 amp I'll use too if I want more of a Vox sound. A mix of guitars (Amer Strat, Gretsh hollow with bigsby, Tele,etc A Taylor all wood dreadnaught.)

-Bass I record direct with a DBX compressor going into the interface

-I play acoustic drums with 2 57's overhead and a the Sterling large diaphragm in front of the kick.

I'm generally happy with the results. In fact I'm blow away but what one can do with almost zero money when compared to my old Fostex 4 track, but of course I want to take it to the next level. I'm someone who just likes to hear the pure unadulterated sound of instruments and amps. Think 70's, warmth, a little grit, punch, chime. Some compression, reverb/delay and let the instruments shine.

So my question is, is my next acquisition a preamp like an ART MPA II? Or should I just focus on learning more about plugins. or invest elsewhere? My interface's preamps do the job of getting the gain to where I need it so its more about adding presence and character, than doing the workman job of a preamp.

As you can tell I'm cheap. I'd rather not get into Behringer bashing since you won't convince me they are not a great cheap way to get some surprisingly good sounds. Sure I'd love to get the best gear but I also need to send my kid to college this fall. So I'm talking a couple hundred bucks.

I've done lots of reading and have a lot to learn and experimenting to do. Is a premp a dead end unless I get the great classic expensive stuff? Should I look at another aspect or just learn to use the tools available to me, ala plug-ins?

Thanks!
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:42 PM   #2
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I'd say you're on the right track. You have modest gear and know how to make it work for you. Better preamps within your budget are, I'd say, the next step in kicking your recordings up a few notches.

It really depends on your music and what your approach to it is. Sure, you can learn to get more out of the plugins you have, but that's not at the expense of anything else, and personally I think your music will be that much more special by upping the game of what happens on the way to the computer than the game of what happens once it's in it, but that's just me.

Definitely listen to a preamp before you buy it. Don't depend on what others say because while it still may be a sleeper for what it costs with big bang for the buck it might not necessarily have a sound that you like. There are some good inexpensive preamp options out there. Absolutely not a dead end unless you get classic expensive.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:18 PM   #3
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As you can tell I'm cheap. I'd rather not get into Behringer bashing since you won't convince me they are not a great cheap way to get some surprisingly good sounds. Sure I'd love to get the best gear but I also need to send my kid to college this fall. So I'm talking a couple hundred bucks.
I wouldn't bash the Behringer Midas style pres personally.

Quote:
I've done lots of reading and have a lot to learn and experimenting to do. Is a premp a dead end unless I get the great classic expensive stuff? Should I look at another aspect or just learn to use the tools available to me, ala plug-ins?
FWIW, I tend steer away from polarized comments that trash or exalt either cheap or expensive across the board. That said, and for me, the difference is about pristine or colored sound wise and available clean gain. Interface preamps are often perfectly capable of capturing audio well, but they are fairly pristine where standalone preamps fall in both categories so my usual advice is to look into a preamp that is considered warm or non-perfectly-transparent.

I also tend to judge gear by how it handles less than ideal conditions because that's what we face in recording far more than lab style perfect conditions. Keep reading up on them, see if you can try some out. I'd also prefer an external preamp that has both a gain and output control so you can actually realize some of it's benefits, if there is no output control, you'll be overloading the input of the pre before the preamp is saturating enough to enjoy. Don't expect to fall out of your chair with night and day differences, these are subtle things by far.

Oh and the super low prices for external, not sure how much value there is there unless someone knows of one they've found to be great at that price. Doesn't have to be insanely expensive by any means but there is probably a limit to value of external pre vs very cheap price.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:38 PM   #4
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Don't buy a preamp, especially if you're happy with the results you are getting.

You might want to buy one or two extra mics. These don't need to be expensive. There are literally hundreds of affordable mics out there.

Once you have a lot of experience with the gear you have now, you'll probably know what to get.

The ART MPAII is a decent preamp. But it's not something that will take you to the next level. More mics will allow you to gain that experience. You might also need a DI if you want to reamp.

And then there's another aspect. How's your recording room? Have you considered acoustically treating it?
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:31 AM   #5
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I've got a friend who has the UMC404. Sounds pretty good to me.

As others have said, microphones and room treatment are probably higher up the list of things that matter than better preamps. And, more important than any of that, using the gear effectively.

I'll take a couple decent of mics in the right spot with decent preamps over any number expensive mics in the wrong spots with expensive preamps.

Behringer preamps VS RME preamps:



If your recording doesn't sound good, I don't think that Behringer preamps are likely to be the culprit.

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Old 08-16-2018, 11:26 AM   #6
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Thanks for the replies. 2 lean toward the right preamp that will add some color, 1 not so much on the preamp - look at mics instead. I think all make sense.

I'd say I'm happy with what I hear in the room, and happy with the results I get with very little investment .But I would like to take it to the next level and to me that's warmth, punch, chime. Slowhand comes to mind-the warmth of the vocals, the dry crack of the snare. Simple but really special.

CYRANO, Any mics in particular I should look at? Remember I love those surprising bargains.

I track guitars and vocals in a carpeted bedroom to keep them dry. Drums in the basement I get some natural reflection which I don't mind usually.

Behringer has a 'tube' preamp (Ultragain Mic220) for $100 but I suspect the tube is for show and any coloration is via a chip, I'm guessing. I do use a Behringer tube pedal which I use as a boost and I do prefer it over a Butler Tube Driver I have. It's warm where the Butler is more crunchy.

I see a ART MPA II on CL for $200. Seems like something to explore.

I forgot to mention I have a Presonus Bluetube Preamp. It has a solid state gain which is transparent, and a tube gain which immediately goes to crunchy. So no warmth to be had. Tube cannot be easily swapped. It was a failed attempt at a bargain.

Thank again. Anyone with preamp or mic recommendations I'd happily take.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:28 AM   #7
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If your recording doesn't sound good, I don't think that Behringer preamps are likely to be the culprit.
I love my Behringer interface and could not be happier with it. Just looking for something extra to take it to the next level!

I've also been reading about the Golden Age Pre73 and the Jr version. Intriguing. I do like the two channels of the ART but the GAP is interesting.

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Old 08-16-2018, 03:07 PM   #8
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All good advice above. I have an original MPA and like it, the MPA II has some more bells and whistles. It thickens the sound a bit, and you can find warmth before it gets too crunchy. As karbo said, these are subtle differences.

I don't know your mics other than the 57s, but I suspect they are "good enough." You might find a mic that's markedly better for $200, but you might not. You can certainly find one that sounds different.

If you only have $200 for the time being, my suggestion would be to make sure you sound as good as you can at the source. Maybe new strings, new heads, a new high hat, a set up, singing/guitar lessons, etc. For positive/negative effects on sound, I think the conventional wisdom goes like this :
Player->instrument->room->mic->preamp->ADCs->USB cable

Also don't overlook the value of an organized, comfortable workspace. Bigger or extra monitor, better desk, storage, ergonomic chair are all worthwhile investments and can save you aggravation and time better spent on improving your skills.

Finally, looks like you’re new here, welcome! If you haven’t already come across this thread, go read the first 20 pages or so: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:46 PM   #9
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I'll just give you this one pencil mic to prove that a good pencil mic isn't expensive:

https://www.kirstein.de/en/Live-Stud...ne-Silver.html

And yes, it's Chinese. I picked it up as a suggestion from a very knowledgeable member on another forum. He repairs classic mics and other expensive studio gear. It's 36,99 €. I've bought a pair. I guess I'll be buying a second pair soon. That brings the number to 45, I think. But I'm a gear-nut.

The Golden Age Pre73 is better than the ART. But not that much better. The ART is a complete vocal strip. The GA73 is just a preamp. Having a complete strip can be handy, but it's not something you can't live without.

Having a number of mics, OTOH, almost seems indispensable. Especially since tracking 64 channels no longer costs two arms and two legs.

And even 10 € second hand mics can be useful. I just bought a broken 50 year old Philips EL6032 for 10 €. It rattled. I counted on at least replacing the internal shockmount (rubber bands), because of it's age. After opening it up, I was amazed that the rubber bands hadn't hardened at all. The capsule just dropped out, probably because of a fall. So that was an easy fix...
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:09 PM   #10
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I was blown away by the tightness of my bass tone thru a Groove tubes preamp at a recording sesh. Not usually one to care about such a thing.

When you test one out try tons of instruments at various ranges. Try a bass, a voice, drums
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconaire View Post
I'm generally happy with the results. In fact I'm blow away but what one can do with almost zero money when compared to my old Fostex 4 track, but of course I want to take it to the next level. I'm someone who just likes to hear the pure unadulterated sound of instruments and amps. Think 70's, warmth, a little grit, punch, chime. Some compression, reverb/delay and let the instruments shine.

So my question is, is my next acquisition a preamp like an ART MPA II? Or should I just focus on learning more about plugins. or invest elsewhere? My interface's preamps do the job of getting the gain to where I need it so its more about adding presence and character, than doing the workman job of a preamp.

As you can tell I'm cheap. I'd rather not get into Behringer bashing since you won't convince me they are not a great cheap way to get some surprisingly good sounds. Sure I'd love to get the best gear but I also need to send my kid to college this fall. So I'm talking a couple hundred bucks.

I've done lots of reading and have a lot to learn and experimenting to do. Is a premp a dead end unless I get the great classic expensive stuff? Should I look at another aspect or just learn to use the tools available to me, ala plug-ins?
Not sure about ART. As cyrano said it is good but it's not something that will take you to the next level.

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Originally Posted by Greedy View Post
If you only have $200 for the time being, my suggestion would be to make sure you sound as good as you can at the source. Maybe new strings, new heads, a new high hat, a set up, singing/guitar lessons, etc. For positive/negative effects on sound, I think the conventional wisdom goes like this :
Player->instrument->room->mic->preamp->ADCs->USB cable
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconaire View Post
CYRANO, Any mics in particular I should look at? Remember I love those surprising bargains.
57s are good, but I would look for large diafragm condenser mic better then Sterling. I like Oktava MK-319 (afair ~$250) but there are a lot of other mics.

If you record acoustic guitar I would think about condenser stereo-pair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconaire View Post
Bass I record direct with a DBX compressor going into the interface
It depends from sound you want, but imho bass sounds much better with preamp (and cabinet impulses), then direct. So I would think about bass preamp. I like MXR M80, but there are a lot of other preamps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconaire View Post
I do use a Behringer tube pedal which I use as a boost and I do prefer it over a Butler Tube Driver I have. It's warm where the Butler is more crunchy.
Behrignger pedals are good for their price, but I would look for something bettter. It's hard to recommend something, you should try them by yourself and thrust your ears. At any case you can buy used pedal, try it and sold if it will not be good for you.

BTW which control do you have? May be there is a reason to save this $200, and buy good monitors?

PS 1 or 2 (for top+bottom) dynamic mics for snare?
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:29 PM   #12
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I'll through this thought out there...
How about plugin emulations for preamps? I mention this because I went down the same path as you for about a year. I bought an ART Pro Channel, upgraded the tubes, but it still didn't have the sound I was looking for after all. Bought a new mic (NT1A to Hulk 990)...which brought me closer, but still missing something. I then started using Slate Digital's emulations, and that's where I started to get the warm sound I was looking for (without having to spend big money on gear). If your audio interface and computer can handle it, the emulations are pretty good. I also use Waves NLS, pretty nice plug.

I mainly record vocals so I can't speak to instruments, but thought I'd mention it since nobody else did.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:33 AM   #13
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Well, all these ideas are nice, but to be completely realistic, it's still mostly about capturing a good performance. If you haven't got that, it doesn't make the damnedest bit of difference how good your gear is, or how well you use it.

A good performance is very hard to destroy with bad production, and a bad performance is very hard to fix with good production. Priorities.
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:18 PM   #14
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Thanks for the replies. I think it goes without saying that first and foremost you need to play and perform up to snuff. But that's just the start and that is what's overwhelming about recording; every little thing counts. So I'm just looking for the best bang for the buck to capture, enhance and present my tracks.
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:41 PM   #15
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Thanks for the replies. I think it goes without saying that first and foremost you need to play and perform up to snuff. But that's just the start
I'll add that I agree with the idea of performance etc. and is one of my passion points but.... if everyone waited until they played perfectly, well that would be pretty much never - so there isn't a thing wrong with experiencing everything else along the way as well, including gear - so long as the person isn't disillusioned, there is no problem.
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I'll add that I agree with the idea of performance etc. and is one of my passion points but.... if everyone waited until they played perfectly, well that would be pretty much never - so there isn't a thing wrong with experiencing everything else along the way as well, including gear - so long as the person isn't disillusioned, there is no problem.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:11 AM   #17
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If you're cheap,
the ART MPA
and GAP 73
are both good choices

I wouldn't use the ART for bass or drums, but you might like it
ART has that tube-flavour, the GAP has Neve flavour (Big bottom, smooth heights)

How about a PreSonus Studio Channel?
Or, some ribbones?

Have fun
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconaire View Post
I love my Behringer interface and could not be happier with it. Just looking for something extra to take it to the next level!

I've also been reading about the Golden Age Pre73 and the Jr version. Intriguing. I do like the two channels of the ART but the GAP is interesting.
For years I have used just two preamps. An original GAP73 and an original (made by Ted Fletcher) JoeMeek vc1 19" 2u channel strip.

I use the GAP73 on all vocals & a lot of DI`d bass these days & still love the subtle difference it imparts. The Joemeek is great, too, but the actual mic pre section is less impressive than the GAP (no surprise there!) which is compensated for by that classic JoeMeek optocompressor & enhancer circuit.

In my case I have never felt the need for a two channel preamp, but can see your point if you are planning on using it on stereo sources. Might be worth seeing if you can scrounge an evaluation unit from Bo?
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:25 AM   #19
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Dear Ivan, thank you for the (unintended) recommendation on the GAP pre73! I often scour forums, find something interesting and start researching. Long story short, I found one of these modded by Zen, got a sweet deal on it, and boy oh boy is this exactly what I was looking for in terms of sound.

cheers!
dave
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Old 09-11-2018, 03:15 AM   #20
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happy to help. I have never used one of Bo`s "new improved deluxe" versions in anger as I am more than happy with the original, also what ARE the Zen mods?

I have seen a lot of talk about using better input and output transformers, which the Carnhill folks ( they make the Neve transformers) told me made very little difference indeed in their tests with one of the GAP73 originals.
Hence I am still on the original version.
But still curious about the Zen mods and how useful they are.

Noticed someone recommended the Oktava 319 on here earlier.
FWIW that is now my second favourite vocal mic, right after my lovely original Rode Classic One.
Both of them suit my deep but "fairly harsh in the midrange" voice, but the Rode does it SO much better.

The only mic I have liked better on my voice was a vintage AKG C12 I used in Rockfield years ago, meticulously maintained by their house engineer Otto.
I learned SO much from that guy in the nine days I was privileged to spend there back in the seventies..
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:52 AM   #21
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I'm honestly not all that familiar with the innards of equipment, but they do replace the transformers with Carnhills, and some other stuff. (edit: more info here: http://www.zenproaudio.com/golden-ag...73-mail-in-mod) Basically to use the same components as in the Neve...supposedly. I probably couldn't tell the difference between the two, but this was already modded and I got it for less than the price of one unmodded so I'm happy, way worth the price of admission. The difference between with and w/o is definitely noteworthy....the Motu preamps are just dull.

I also have an Oktava mic, Hulk 990. It's great paired with the new preamp, too.

Michael just sent an email out to customers today that he is no longer going to make or sell his mics anymore. What a bummer!
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
I probably couldn't tell the difference between the two
IMHO transformers don't make that much difference until the preamp is pushed so that they start saturating, which is difficult to do with a DAW unless the preamp also has a dedicated output control - because it'll overload the input of the ADC. Better transformers are usually in search of better overall quality because transformers that pass the entire spectrum well and quietly are very expensive to manufacture.

The other advantage to transformers is galvanic isolation = no ground loops through that device if/when that matters. That isn't a dismissal of transformers as I have at least seven preamps that have them.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:58 PM   #23
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Transformers are the black magic part of electronics. Everything else is pretty well known and predictable, except trannies.

You can count the number of real experts in audio transformers worldwide on the fingers of one hand. And even those might advise not to use transformers for audio, unless you need electrical isolation.

The same kind of mist hangs over capacitors, but that's 99% myth. Capacitor behaviour is well defined and any difference is in the ear of the listener when the circuit is otherwise well designed.
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:00 AM   #24
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Hilarious how many people stumble over the difference between induction and resistance - & don`t get me started on reluctance.
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Old 10-29-2018, 03:52 AM   #25
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From my experience, when using line level signals with the usual range of expected output and input impedance's, well designed audio transformers can be very transparent. Outside of those narrow circumstances, not so much.
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