Old 04-12-2018, 11:31 AM   #1
serr
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Default Apple's 'filevault' faux pas. Important!

The recent OSX 10.13 installer has enabling Filevault (a disk encryption feature) selected by default. If you just cruse through the setup screen after a fresh OSX install you might miss this and end up with Filevault enabled!

This is a feature that severely sacrifices performance for security. Something appropriate for an FBI agent or bank CEO with sensitive data at risk of physical access but no need for any performance.

Open System Preferences, click Security & Privacy, click the Filevault tab.
If you see it turned on, please turn it off and follow the prompts to un-encrypt your drive.

Also note that OSX updates are sometimes failing with Filevault enabled. Leads to a full OSX reinstall and restore.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:19 AM   #2
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Wha?!

Firstly, It doesn't severely sacrifice performance whatsoever, particularly if you're running an SSD.

Secondly, I have 4 machines running ALL with filevault, and as someone who relies on those machines professionally to earn a living, filevault is huge piece of mind for all my hardware for not only my own personal data but for my customers also.

Only applicable to a Bank CEO/FBI Agent - what a stupid thing to say, this whole post is really scare mongering beyond belief and pro-actively promoting ignorance and ill-advice to fellow users that is not to their benefit.

If you've some firsthand experience of this happening, then by all means relay it back. But in my experience after having a mac stolen at a live gig i was so glad that i had the security offered to me enabled, and certainly no 'real world' performance impact. So let's not push out such alarmist information based on hearsay, eh?

Maybe it would be more reasoned to offer the suggestion that if anyone has experienced slow down after a period of a few days from updating or installing MacOS (i.e. after things have settled) to then look into whether Filevault is enabled, as a possible issue?

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Old 04-13-2018, 09:51 AM   #3
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You need to understand what Filevault actually is.
This encrypts your hard drive volume. This is security against physical access to your hard drive. It would not protect you online or in any other way. Specifically protection from physical access to your drive. (Hence the comment about a good fit for someone like an FBI agent or CEO with business secrets on their machine that someone would be motivated to steal and access.)

Anything in or out of the drive is encrypted/decrypted and this is obviously a performance hit. A fast machine with a SSD might not be fully crippled but you would be sacrificing significant performance none the less.

If you ARE at risk of theft and theft of sensitive data, then you absolutely want to make this kind of security first priority. Either put up with a slower machine for secondary uses or use a machine with no expensive company secrets on it instead. Bricking an OS update/install is an acceptable risk if this kind of security is a priority.

High security against physical access and theft is a lower use case and absolutely a faux pas to have enabled by default for the average user.

And Apple are screwing up. Updates are crashing and bricking the OSX install in filevault enabled systems. They currently are aware something is very wrong as they shut down their update server some 24 hours ago and it's still down. So we have users that clicked on an update and now their even their USB OSX installer will not bail them out because 10.13 requires a connection to their server for current updates (even if you have made a full USB installer). Not a good look!

Today, if you try updating from 10.13.3 to 10.13.4, a download will appear to start, your system will reboot into the installer mode, and it will quietly give up and restart back to 10.13.3. But if you had filevault enabled it will now hang on startup and you will be in "paperweight" mode. Seen a number of systems with this happen now. One in front of me right now. Apple's server is still down.



Do what you will with this info and believe it or not. I see things, I spill the beans on them. I've never seen Apple crashing and burning this hard before. This is Windows-esque stuff.

I tried playing along even with the extra work and feature regressions but I'm back to recommending avoiding both 10.12 and 10.13 again. (10.13 was supposed to be a bug fixed 10.12)
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:58 AM   #4
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You need to understand what Filevault actually is.
This encrypts your hard drive volume. This is security against physical access to your hard drive. It would not protect you online or in any other way.
I work with security every day of the week, so i have a rough approximation of what Filevault is, but i'm always keen to learn more.

And, If by 'any other way' you include physical loss or theft of your hardware then yes it would very much protect you, may be the one thing that keeps your data safe infact, so really YOU need to understand what disk encryption means, HOW it works and WHY it protects you, because again, you're going to be posting nonsense in a vein attempt to protect your own integrity vs providing fellow users accurate information.

If that's the line you tread, then i can't help you, but as a professional who's been covered via disk encryption and have actively chosen to use it for many years i shall stand to correct such nonsense, mainly for the benefit of anyone reading, and zero desire to argue with you on the matter - because it's such clearly ill-advised information that you're promoting.

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Anything in or out of the drive is encrypted/decrypted and this is obviously a performance hit. A fast machine with a SSD might not be fully crippled but you would be sacrificing significant performance none the less.
Not a clue have you? You realise CPU's have encryption sets built in, so the majority of the encryption is handled direct via instructions within the CPU itself? i.e. basically means it's using areas of computing that your machine wouldn't even be using if encryption was disabled? It's like putting shopping in the engine bay of your car cause you've 'heard' putting it in the boot will slow you down.

Look into AES-NI, as you're clearly oblivious to how it works.

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If you ARE at risk of theft and theft of sensitive data, then you absolutely want to make this kind of security first priority. Either put up with a slower machine for secondary uses or use a machine with no expensive company secrets on it instead. Bricking an OS update/install is an acceptable risk if this kind of security is a priority.
There is no noticeable trade off, and we ARE ALL at risk of theft, or machine loss - particularly laptop users. There is NO priority to be considered, it's really not an issue, and as i've said before if you have some first hand experience of it causing you issues then go ahead and post them, as it is this is all just hear say and nonsense, and regurgitation of false information.

But to use that further and recommend people disable a very well implemented security for their devices is really really ill-advised. I would even be willing to make a case that by not using it you could be walking in to more problems as Apple are strongly advising it to be used.

As i've said before, i use multiple devices ALL encrypted, have done so for years, i lost a MacBook at a live gig, and luckily it was fully encrypted. On top of that, companies i work for have all 100's of their machines encrypted, and i've not heard of any of them having to disable it for the massive 1% CPU boost they 'may' see.

If you've got a studio that cannot be broken into, or a house that you never leave unattended, or you're a laptop user who never takes it out/leaves it in a car/on holiday, or you trust any computer repair shop where you may send your machine to be fixed, or you have shared accommodation where you can trust everyone coming in and out of, and you destroy all media after use - Then go ahead, disable it and revel in the CPU boost that you'll probably never even notice with modern encryption. Furthermore, Keep working AGAINST what the OS provider recommends, and see what happens.

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High security against physical access and theft is a lower use case and absolutely a faux pas to have enabled by default for the average user.
I suppose holding multiple backups is a 'faux pas' too, right? I mean, why even backup externally (via cloud/ftp/nas etc) when by your advice nothing can happen to an 'average user's physical machine? An unencrypted Laptop with USB drive is enough, right? Unencrypted local backups also pointless in your opinion also?

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Do what you will with this info and believe it or not. I see things, I spill the beans on them.
No, you read 'things', and then post ill advised recommendations to fellow users that's not to their longterm benefit, it's nothing to do with 'believing' you, in fact, this isn't anything do with 'you' at all and i think that's the problem you're having.

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I've never seen Apple crashing and burning this hard before. This is Windows-esque stuff.
Yeah sure, it's really confusing how millions of professionals around the world are cashing in their invoices with this clear burning and crashing of apple that's happening around us!! It's absolutely insane. I don't know how i made it through last month alive... Luckily i was able to fight all these issues and get through the work. But next month... wow, may have to swap to windows, which, actually is a really good OS too - oh wait, now you have me confused. How an earth have people be running on windows all these years too?!!

Are you without a machine by the way? Have you been crashing and burning too? Or is this just more 'spilling the beans' kinda stuff, that you've seen?

And are Apple now so windows-esque that they're selling your personal details to the highest bidder? All i see is them putting some great technology in place to protect it's users both physically and virtually. But hey, if you want to fight against that, then do so. But please, don't recommend that others should do so by default, even if you caused one person to have their data stolen a year down the line, one is still too much.

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I tried playing along even with the extra work and feature regressions but I'm back to recommending avoiding both 10.12 and 10.13 again. (10.13 was supposed to be a bug fixed 10.12)
Again, i'm running all the latest updates, encryption enabled, has been for years, multiple machines, i service approx 70-80 machines directly over the course of a year and i have not known one occurrence of having to disable disk encryption. But then, i don't sit and read stories, i just get to work.

As you're a guru on recommending which OS we should also be using, could you please confirm that you still recommend running without encryption enabled by default?

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Old 04-16-2018, 09:42 AM   #5
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I stopped after the first bits about it being possible to commit physical theft over the internet and magic instruction sets that execute in zero time. Sorry, I don't think you're trying to troll me and there's certainly some miscommunication or typo at the root of that but still...

I'll simplify it: Don't invite trouble!

Do understand that security measures designed to protect against physical theft are sometimes a priority. Use them when appropriate. Don't use them when performance and/or data integrity is the priority.

Aside: I suspect what got a little confused above is related to integrated chip level security like that available in some of the secure flash memory (like that used to store encrypted EFI passwords). There will come a day when perhaps everything is made like this in a way that supports performance. It would be premature to treat OS based hard drive encryption this way.

Care to explain to the last guy who lost the recording of his last project and further had to come for help with a machine that would no longer boot how he's still better off with this enabled? Yes, he screwed up by 1. not catching it on day 1, and 2. really screwed up by clicking that OSX update button before backing it up. That IS the root screwup! So don't invite trouble.


Want the 'conspiracy theory' version?
Apple is being accused of doing this intentionally to really hit anyone still using a spinning HDD for their system drive (as originally came stock in many of the pro machines they used to make) so they can tell them they need to buy one of their new disposable models. I think they're just good old fashioned screwing up on this one too but it's getting harder to make Rube Goldberg-like excuses for how it's still innocent as they devolve.


Anyway, the trouble stories I've told are all real episodes. I'm suggesting 'better safe that sorry' approaches to prevent disaster and erring on the side of caution. Operator is a thing for sure but it isn't reasonable to get dinged for it like I see going on with this current OSX release.

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Old 04-16-2018, 11:46 AM   #6
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Default They fixed it!

The errant default selection to enable Filevault in the new install account setup script has been removed in the new 10.13.4 installer. (Note, the 'base install' package has been revised and installs OSX 10.13.4 as the base system now.)
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:14 PM   #7
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FWIW, Serr, I've been using FileVault for years, also on disks that are used for recording. The performance loss isn't even noticeable.

But, yes, it shouldn't be enabled by default. And there's a worse bug in there. In some circumstances, it resets your FV password. If you don't have the secondary unlock key, your data is toast...

That reminds me I should backup. It's been a while
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:05 AM   #8
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I stopped after the first bits about it being possible to commit physical theft over the internet and magic instruction sets that execute in zero time. Sorry, I don't think you're trying to troll me and there's certainly some miscommunication or typo at the root of that but still...

I'll simplify it: Don't invite trouble!
Well, i'm willing to learn, and you're not, so that's up to you if you consider any alternative viewpoint to be trolling, that's a pathetic stance to take when someone is trying to help other users.

And you are directly inviting trouble by not encrypting your drive, both in the sense that your data could be easily more compromised but moreso that you're operating against the recommendations of the OS designer. i.e. it will be the users who have no encrypted previously at most risk of having an issue.

If you don't understand how AES or AES-Ni works then really you shouldn't be telling people such false claims that their performance will be SEVERE-ly affected with encryption, as it's nonsense. The hardware and OS is designed to specifically run in that manner. There's no magic, it's simply a case of the CPU directly being able to decrypt on the fly which means it's not having to go via your OS and affect applications.

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Do understand that security measures designed to protect against physical theft are sometimes a priority. Use them when appropriate. Don't use them when performance and/or data integrity is the priority.
There is no priority choice to be made, you've made it out to be this evil encryption that's no use to anyone other than an FBI agent and it slows your machine done AND you recommend people disable it?! It's nonsense, and you know it. If i encrypted your drive you would not even notice i had done so.

Further than that you dismiss any facts as trolling, you're basically trolling yourself mate.

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Care to explain to the last guy who lost the recording of his last project and further had to come for help with a machine that would no longer boot how he's still better off with this enabled? Yes, he screwed up by 1. not catching it on day 1, and 2. really screwed up by clicking that OSX update button before backing it up. That IS the root screwup! So don't invite trouble.
I can't understand what you're saying here, but if it was already enabled then the issue cannot be with disk encryption, the issue may happen if you enable disk encryption and the drive locks - in which case no data is lost, you simply unlock the drive via the key. It's really quite straight forward, encryption does not make changes to your actual data, it's simply doing it's job of not allowing an unvalidated OS to read it.

Secondly, any sensible user will be running backups on their system, Apple has both bases covered with file vault and time machine - so there's no excuse for anyone using a mac to not have backups, or their data encrypted. If they're not backing up then there can be no complaints if they lose data that they cherish, and likewise if they do not encrypt their data there can be no complaints if they're even subjected to identity/data theft where their laptop to go missing.


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Want the 'conspiracy theory' version?
No, cause it's balls and shows that basically at the core of your thoughts is a conspiracy theory that's at the basis of you recommending that people should turn off privacy protection based on false rumours and clearly NO REAL WORLD experience yourself.

Your really need to grow up. I'll leave my laptop on a train to go for a ride, and you leave yours, and we'll see who's most likely for identity theft.

Are you really trying to tell the world that Apple would want to deliberately break and/or slow down their own users OS's so that companies such as western digital/samsung/toshiba etc. can sell more SSD drives? Really? They are that charitable to hard drive manufacturers?!! Or is the conspiracy deeper, that actually Apple are building all these drives and rebranding them as Toshiba/WD etc? lol honestly, it's laughable.


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Anyway, the trouble stories I've told are all real episodes.
Have you personally lost data because of this 'faux pas'? It's pointless passing off stuff "you've read" as fact, particularly given your loaded agenda that this is some kind of conspiracy against people within spinning drives lol.

Your very post which created this thread is proof of that mis-information and how it spreads, and how these 'stories' you read are all just secondhand information that serves no direct help to users, particularly when loaded with a conspiracy-based 'recommend' to disable something that has been designed to offer them protection in the case of a real disaster scenario.

Maybe if i hadn't argued the fact then someone else would've pointed to this thread as evidence that CPU's are severely affected if you enable encryption, and your machine will crash and burn, and apple are doing it all to stop people using spinning drives and that we MUST be safe than sorry and DISABLE ALL THEY RECOMMEND!!!! (joke!). Seriously, Be part of the solution, not the problem.


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I'm suggesting 'better safe that sorry' approaches to prevent disaster and erring on the side of caution. Operator is a thing for sure but it isn't reasonable to get dinged for it like I see going on with this current OSX release.
Yet you're quite happy to scare people into disabling such a useful feature. The better safe than sorry approach IS to enable encryption, it doesn't hit CPU, it offers privacy protection AND it's recommended by the OS creators, so you're towing the safest line possible there.

A 'DISASTER' is losing your data via theft or loss, another 'DISASTER' could be working against the OS recommendations in a way that may ostracise you, meaning that you're become the small percentage in the millions who may experience issues.

How an earth is working AGAINST guidelines considered safe?! i.e. How can a recommended box even be automatically ticked without your knowledge if you've already ticked it years ago?!

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Old 04-17-2018, 09:23 AM   #9
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Thankyou very much Skijumptoes for giving us actual facts.., and for dealing to the paranoid delusional conspiracy crap of serr.

.

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Old 04-17-2018, 10:31 AM   #10
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FWIW, Serr, I've been using FileVault for years, also on disks that are used for recording. The performance loss isn't even noticeable.

But, yes, it shouldn't be enabled by default. And there's a worse bug in there. In some circumstances, it resets your FV password. If you don't have the secondary unlock key, your data is toast...

That reminds me I should backup. It's been a while
Fair enough.
Now the folks directly accusing me of making up the examples I mentioned and that led me to posting a friendly warning...
I don't know. I suspect I sounded kind of like that a few years ago. Fully hyped up on the Apple koolaid and all. Apple can do no wrong!

So was this a red herring on the machines I saw? There was a clear night/day on the few machines with spinning HDD's when disabled again.

Does running a SSD make it a moot point?
The proper thing for me to do would be to run some disk tests. The Filevaulted OSX install getting bricked from the .4 revision sure seemed like a direct result. I've seen 3 of those. So I approached this from a "Don't invite trouble" angle and said turn it off if you don't need protection against physical theft of your hard drive.

Seems like the safe approach.

I don't get the logic in other's speculation that somehow disk encryption could protect you against anything online. This would be a dangerous conclusion to draw because it very much does not. You still need network monitoring and file verification tools for that.

Fair point that I didn't exactly verify everything with a lot of speed tests.

Computers...
Turn everything and the kitchen sink on unless someone can verify that there WILL be a problem? Or only turn on what you're using and keep it simple. I'm honestly trying for the latter.

I've seen a number of posts complaining about poor performance in OSX 10.13 that made no sense in that there was no obvious wrong settings and the machine was far from underpowered. And of course no one wants risk of their OS bricked when they have things to do. So I threw this out there.


Having problems and this wasn't it? Fair enough then.

If you have a machine with physical security requirements, by all means use disk encryption! Is it still fast enough to also run audio? Well, sweet then!
Note that you'll have to enable this manually again because Apple removed the default selection with the .4 revision.
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:56 AM   #11
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The thing is that audio users are demanding a lot smaller buffer sizes than years ago, along with higher and higher tracks counts coupled with DFD streaming of enormous sample libraries. I'd be amazed if there wasn't a significant decrease in peak performance in some circumstances.

I see from Intel's testing that things aren't clear cut - even as clear cut as their conclusion from limited testing here...

https://software.intel.com/en-us/art...rol-case-study

Re the single core thing performance drop, I instantly thought of Kontakt or *shudder* Play there. With the other cores and cache already being taken up with other, non-encryption duties - unlike their testing.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:14 PM   #12
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Snooks certainly has a point.

And I should have added that I only use it on a data disk or partition, not on a startup disk. I've tested it on a startup disk, tho and the performance hit was minor. There can be a worse performance hit in some cases. Like, don't try it on a software RAID setup. And I imagine background backup utilities, like Retrospect could wreak havoc too.

Meanwhile, another FV related bug surfaced. Some Macs, also older ones, don't wake from sleep running 10.3.4. Waking results in a black screen, no way out but to hard reboot the machine. I know of complete data loss in one case. Could be a failing SSD, of course.

What puzzles me since Lion, is that all these bugs only seem to happen to some users. We've hardly seen a "general" bug, affecting all users. Or even all users of certain models.

That seems to suggest it's not hardware related.

Meanwhile, the cause for the FV password reset seems to be the use of a central authentication server, so that bug is limited to the corporate world.

EDIT: Intel ran these tests on a 128GB memory RedHat machine
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:05 AM   #13
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I don't get the logic in other's speculation that somehow disk encryption could protect you against anything online. This would be a dangerous conclusion to draw because it very much does not. You still need network monitoring and file verification tools for that.
I would love for you to point out where anyone has claimed such a thing as you're coming across as dramatically confused here and clearly not understanding what's being said?

I don't get the logic of why Apple are embroiled in a conspiracy to sell more SSD drives for Samsung, perhaps you could explain that also?

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I've seen a number of posts complaining about poor performance in OSX 10.13 that made no sense in that there was no obvious wrong settings and the machine was far from underpowered.
So by that logic you'd recommend that we disable firewalls if our internet is slow? There's hundreds of reasons before the disk encryption being a culprit, but perhaps none of them have a conspiracy that you can hang on?

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And of course no one wants risk of their OS bricked when they have things to do. So I threw this out there.
You also 'threw out' that it's better to have no encryption claiming it's for FBI Agents.
You also 'threw out' that performance is SEVERELY effected.
You also 'threw out' that this is an Apple conspiracy.
You also 'threw out' that Apple are crashing and burning hard.

The truth is, in turns of first hand experience and knowledge, you are somewhat ignorant on the subject matter but masquerading as an expert on it, and subsequently would rather let laughable conspiracies take precedence in your mind. I mean, 'magic' cpu instruction sets, you really think that?!

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If you have a machine with physical security requirements, by all means use disk encryption! Is it still fast enough to also run audio? Well, sweet then!
Why the question mark, i thought you had tried it, as you was saying how night and day the performance difference it is(!?).
Don't tell me after all this you've never even used a machine running from an encrypted drive?

And i'll say it once more, as you're clearly not understanding, ALL our machines are at risk of physical loss or theft, and some may also be at further risk, i.e. being used in a shared environment or sent externally for repairs etc..

I don't understand the criteria you've formed to conclude who wouldn't be at risk? Is it still bank CEO's and FBI Agents? Or can we include students commuting each day with laptops? Howabout studio owners who's studios are external to their home properties? Howabout a DJ who's transporting their mac for live work? Howabout the average joe, who has all their bank details, emails and account information and also enjoy making music as a hobby? Most importantly, what about yourself?

I've never had to use a disaster recovery backup personally, so, does that mean that statistically i should stop backing up?! That IS a performance killer, yet i've had a laptop stolen which is generally considered a lesser chance of occurrence.

So technically physical encryption has been my greatest saviour up until this point. Would i rather have found that out the hard way based on your critieria? No, cause i don't take chances with clients data, nor mine. It's called better safe than sorry, some talk it, some exercise it.

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Old 04-18-2018, 03:34 AM   #14
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What puzzles me since Lion, is that all these bugs only seem to happen to some users. We've hardly seen a "general" bug, affecting all users. Or even all users of certain models.
Depends how knowledgeable people are i think, i.e. most of us here could probably use a Mac and know if it's running ok or not, and also know when to give it a fresh install or keep with the OS upgrade method.

I used to have a set cycle of Clean Install/Upgrade/Clean Install/Upgrade for each major OSX revision, and going through Yosemite etc. was hell for me, particularly with work - it was causing me some serious problems. I hated yosemite and couldn't understand how anyone could say it was good.

So i literarily spent an entire weekend sorting out all my data files, splitting into different partitions etc. and bought a new SSD, put everything back 'including' yosemite, and it ran perfectly. Since then if i notice any kind of dip in performance or issues, i immediately get on it and sort them out.

And you know, what i've noticed more and more is that it's amazing, for example, how an out of date extension in safari, can affect your system. Or when you're debugging code and have installed additional extensions and/or drivers and they go out of date with an OS revision.

But the most critical aspect to reading problems online, i think, is that everyone are web enabled by default now, and as such with forums, twitter, Facebook etc. the issues are so much more immediate than what they were previously.

It's like if you check a Facebook timeline, it's also amazing how many people are suffering with depression too. I mean, that's massive! ..but are they? God knows! lol

Since El Cap i've just been happy to upgrade and it's running well still, but as a windows convert many many years ago i think i'm just so much more into the apple mindset (i.e. hitting terminal like i would dos etc) and can deal with most issues without even referring to the internet - which seems to take longer now there's so much chuff to read through!

I've also experienced a load of Hackintosh users in the past couple of years asking for help, the minute you walk in and a black PC with neon lights hanging off it, and a 'MacOS' sticker on the front, my first reaction is 'ohhh'.

Also, there's many older Mac Pro (08/09) users who are using a firmware hack to keep their machines relevant, i still love mine - it's running High Sierra, as i wanted the latest Logic updates, and it's all good. However, i know there's many elements to be wary off!

Not sure what point i'm trying to make here, but i've been really hot and cold with Apple since Leopard. Currently though, it's earning me money and i'm really happy - my biggest concern is what my next hardware will be. I'm not fussed what OS i run, as long as it does the business, and i can throw any laptop in a bag and know it will respond when i'm sat infant with a roomful of people the other end!
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:28 PM   #15
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Depends how knowledgeable people are i think, i.e. most of us here could probably use a Mac and know if it's running ok or not, and also know when to give it a fresh install or keep with the OS upgrade method.
I don't think so. First off, OSX should work even for the uninitiated. And secondly, there's hardly any docs at all from Apple. We seem to have to work it all out ourselves, with the help of sources like MacAdmins.

Besides, my numbers come from fleets in the corporate/edu world. Most users aren't really knowledgeable when it comes to their computer.

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I used to have a set cycle of Clean Install/Upgrade/Clean Install/Upgrade for each major OSX revision, and going through Yosemite etc. was hell for me, particularly with work - it was causing me some serious problems. I hated yosemite and couldn't understand how anyone could say it was good.

So i literarily spent an entire weekend sorting out all my data files, splitting into different partitions etc. and bought a new SSD, put everything back 'including' yosemite, and it ran perfectly. Since then if i notice any kind of dip in performance or issues, i immediately get on it and sort them out.
I always do a clean install when doing a major upgrade. But that's my personal machine. It's old and it runs Mavericks. I skip a few versions these days. I held out on Snow for as long as I could. It wasn't until I needed an up-to-date browser that I upgraded to Mavericks. And I had to rip out some icloud parts to get everything to my liking.

I've got El Capital on a partition, but that doesn't play nice with my RME. Dropouts every 5 to 15 seconds. And as I've got no reason to upgrade yet, I haven't taken the time to debug it.

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And you know, what i've noticed more and more is that it's amazing, for example, how an out of date extension in safari, can affect your system. Or when you're debugging code and have installed additional extensions and/or drivers and they go out of date with an OS revision.
I've given up on Safari. I use Chrome and Vivaldi for daily work. Safari is kept clean. No extensions, no bookmarks even. It takes forever to load and it isn't as fast as the two others.

In fact, I've given up on most Apple applications. I gave up Logic when it was at 9.0 because of the time it took Apple to fix the many bugs. And I've given up on stuff like iMovie, because Apple killed it. Things like Pages, which I don't use much, are way too slow, compared with other, more slender software out there. The only Apple apps remaining, are iTunes and iPhoto.

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But the most critical aspect to reading problems online, i think, is that everyone are web enabled by default now, and as such with forums, twitter, Facebook etc. the issues are so much more immediate than what they were previously.

It's like if you check a Facebook timeline, it's also amazing how many people are suffering with depression too. I mean, that's massive! ..but are they? God knows! lol
As I said, I've other data sources when it comes to weighing problems. I do have a FB account these days, under a phony name, because I needed a dev code. But I hardly use it. I have NO FB friends, as everybody I know doesn't want FB. And I belong to two FB groups. One is for Ambisonics. Hardly any activity. The other one is about fungi and is very active.

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Since El Cap i've just been happy to upgrade and it's running well still, but as a windows convert many many years ago i think i'm just so much more into the apple mindset (i.e. hitting terminal like i would dos etc) and can deal with most issues without even referring to the internet - which seems to take longer now there's so much chuff to read through!
I"ve been a Mac user since 1986 or so. But I've managed hundreds of Win machines back in W2K era. Glad I don't have to do that today

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I've also experienced a load of Hackintosh users in the past couple of years asking for help, the minute you walk in and a black PC with neon lights hanging off it, and a 'MacOS' sticker on the front, my first reaction is 'ohhh'.

Also, there's many older Mac Pro (08/09) users who are using a firmware hack to keep their machines relevant, i still love mine - it's running High Sierra, as i wanted the latest Logic updates, and it's all good. However, i know there's many elements to be wary off!
The TonyMac scene has a lot of VERY knowledgeable people. And they are not fanbois. I also still support many Mac Pro users for photography and audio.

In fact, I've built a PPC machine recently, for an artist who was so fed up with some plugin that comes with a built-in shop today that he went back to OS9 to get rid of all the cloud stuff. And, lo and behold, that ancient stuff is faster too.

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Not sure what point i'm trying to make here, but i've been really hot and cold with Apple since Leopard. Currently though, it's earning me money and i'm really happy - my biggest concern is what my next hardware will be. I'm not fussed what OS i run, as long as it does the business, and i can throw any laptop in a bag and know it will respond when i'm sat infant with a roomful of people the other end!
My thoughts exactly. Don't want a TouchBar lappy. And I'd like FireWire, for the RME.

And, no, definitely NO USB-C. That's turning into the biggest money pit I've ever seen. AV Pro's with one of these new, light, slender MB Pro's also carry a big bag of USB-C adapters these days. Labelled with 'this one for video with a XYZ projector' and stuff like that. I've even seen one with a (paper) note book only to sort out problems with all the different hardware he encounters when doing shows in different venues.

What's definitely worrying me, is repairability. Apple obsoletes machines after 5 years, these days. That's simply not long enough to warrant the high price. HP's latest are beginning to look very interesting, with a 4 TB SSD, 32 GB ram and a 4 GHz processor, under 2.000$. That leaves budget for a new interface...

And since REAPER works with Debian/Wine, there's not much left keeping me on OSX.

Oh, yes, that's another BIG error Apple committed. Renaming OSX to MacOS. Even their own devs don't want to use it. It makes finding anything on the net a real pita. And in absence of docs from Apple, we need to search more and more.
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:44 PM   #16
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Apple dropping 32 bit support and going with ARM processors are biggies too. The ARM thing in particular is a major upheaval which might turn out very badly.

What do you guys think of the upcoming Macpocalypses?
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Old 04-19-2018, 04:17 AM   #17
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Apple dropping 32 bit support and going with ARM processors are biggies too. The ARM thing in particular is a major upheaval which might turn out very badly.

What do you guys think of the upcoming Macpocalypses?

There are already hundreds if not thousands of music apps running on ARM for several years now so I fail to see your prediction of "very badly".

Change is inevitable so it either works for your needs or it does not.

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Old 04-19-2018, 05:16 AM   #18
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There are already hundreds if not thousands of music apps running on ARM for several years now so I fail to see your prediction of "very badly".
None of these devices have ever been stressed in the same way that desktops have been for audio. Processor architectures are not interchangeably performant either - even with the same instruction set, as can be see with the x86 wars between Intel and AMD over the years.

I predict 5 years of blaming Native Instrument et al for not "optimising their code for the new Mac architecture" or similar. Maybe the processors will be better/faster out of the gate though! Anything's possible, including disaster (for audio, an insignificant blip in terms of profit for Apple).
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:26 AM   #19
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None of these devices have ever been stressed in the same way that desktops have been for audio. Processor architectures are not interchangeably performant either - even with the same instruction set, as can be see with the x86 wars between Intel and AMD over the years.

I predict 5 years of blaming Native Instrument et al for not "optimising their code for the new Mac architecture" or similar. Maybe the processors will be better/faster out of the gate though! Anything's possible, including disaster (for audio, an insignificant blip in terms of profit for Apple).

Why do you focus on the negatives?, focus on the positives.., if the change does not fit your needs then find and use another platform that does.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:01 AM   #20
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Why do you focus on the negatives?, focus on the positives.., if the change does not fit your needs then find and use another platform that does.
I'm worried for Mac users, I can't help it and can't ignore the active volcano they are resting their little yoga mats and feng shui books on.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:03 AM   #21
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I'm worried for Mac users, I can't help it and can't ignore the active volcano they are resting their little yoga mats and feng shui books on.

A perception of reality is not reality so why are you so worried about something that has not happened yet..?, the future might just bring us good positive change and all will work out.., shock horror.

and probably many people at Microsoft have little yoga mats n feng shui books also haha.

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Old 04-19-2018, 07:52 AM   #22
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None of these devices have ever been stressed in the same way that desktops have been for audio. Processor architectures are not interchangeably performant either - even with the same instruction set, as can be see with the x86 wars between Intel and AMD over the years.
I don't agree. There are literally millions of devices out there running on ARM. And some of those are used in DSP applications.

It all depends on the software. And Apple has pulled off such a transition twice before, without too much trouble for the end-user.

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I predict 5 years of blaming Native Instrument et al for not "optimising their code for the new Mac architecture" or similar. Maybe the processors will be better/faster out of the gate though! Anything's possible, including disaster (for audio, an insignificant blip in terms of profit for Apple).
That sure is possible. It's already happening with USB in 10.13.4. So you don't even need an ARM processor to find trouble.

I personally don't see any reason to favour Intel. They've been bad enough, with bugs and unreliable patches. Besides, Intel has seen a tremendous braindrain, lately.

The ARM platform isn't loaded with a gorilla in the room. Intel will do anything to keep their almost monopoly. ARM is just a license. Any manufacturer can go shopping for silicon anywhere. Of course, Apple makes their own chips. But still, they'll have several chip fabs to choose from. That means mostly good things might come out of it.

IF software devs follow.

And maybe the current hiccups in Apple's software development are there because they're busy with something else? Don't forget Tiger was already running on Intel, as a test case, long before Snow surfaced. There are rumours of OSX running on ARM in the lab...
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:53 AM   #23
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if the change does not fit your needs then find and use another platform that does.
That sounds quite simple when you read it...

Ever tried it?
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:00 AM   #24
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That sounds quite simple when you read it...

Ever tried it?

what do you think smarty pants.. lol.

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Old 04-19-2018, 08:29 AM   #25
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So you run Windows?
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:48 AM   #26
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I don't agree. There are literally millions of devices out there running on ARM. And some of those are used in DSP applications.
It's not whether or not the processors are capable of doing arithmetic though (DSP), it's the relative performance vs other chips when streaming multi-gigabyte sample libraries at super low latencies etc. We can easily see that one x86 chip is not the same as another, so the differences with completely different architectures should be bigger. Maybe they'll be better or the same, but maybe they will be significantly worse.

I don't see much chat concerning the latter possibility, which is strange considering that Apple can't release a new macOS version on the same architecture without significant issues.
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Old 04-19-2018, 09:22 AM   #27
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I'm trying to shorten my reading backlog. This came in:

https://blog.cloudflare.com/arm-takes-wing/

It shows how current ARM technology is almost as fast as the next Intel cream-of-the-crop and how it outperforms it in a lot of cases.

Keep in mind that the above comparison is server oriented. However, things like compression (zlib) are very close to what happens in audio processing, when performance is what you're testing.

Also, keep in mind these are not Apple's ARM chips. But I see no reason to think Apple's offerings are less. On the contrary.

And sample processing would be a task that is much, much faster when carried out on these 64 core ARM chips, as they aren't hindered by backwards compatibility and have been multi-threaded from the beginning. That means the software libraries for them are a lot faster too.

I sure as hell don't know how the developers of plugins and other audio software feel and where they stand when it comes to development on ARM. That could be a pain point. But, in general, the devs that already are developing for ARM, like some Linux developers, are VERY pleased with the platform.

So let's hope the current problems with OSX stem from devs having their interests elsewhere, like in studying ARM instructions sets...
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Old 04-19-2018, 09:24 AM   #28
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So you run Windows?
Why yes I do.. lol.., I prefer using macOS but windows 10 works great for me also.., I use Reaper on both platforms and Logic Pro X on Mac obviously.., I just starting trying out FL Studio on macOS a few weeks ago.., I really like it.

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Old 04-19-2018, 11:08 AM   #29
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I'm trying to shorten my reading backlog. This came in:

https://blog.cloudflare.com/arm-takes-wing/

It shows how current ARM technology is almost as fast as the next Intel cream-of-the-crop and how it outperforms it in a lot of cases.

Keep in mind that the above comparison is server oriented. However, things like compression (zlib) are very close to what happens in audio processing, when performance is what you're testing.

Also, keep in mind these are not Apple's ARM chips. But I see no reason to think Apple's offerings are less. On the contrary.

And sample processing would be a task that is much, much faster when carried out on these 64 core ARM chips, as they aren't hindered by backwards compatibility and have been multi-threaded from the beginning. That means the software libraries for them are a lot faster too.

I sure as hell don't know how the developers of plugins and other audio software feel and where they stand when it comes to development on ARM. That could be a pain point. But, in general, the devs that already are developing for ARM, like some Linux developers, are VERY pleased with the platform.

So let's hope the current problems with OSX stem from devs having their interests elsewhere, like in studying ARM instructions sets...
Let's see...

OK, so Apple have ignored their pro lines the past 6 years because they've been busy with new designs. They also know we're still using said models because they made them to last at least 20 years so it isn't a big deal. Same with OSX builds. Saving resources for the big switch to ARM and all.

We'll see machines that outclass the best Intel machines by at least 4x again and an OSX that can't be touched. (Or maybe OS XI?) I'll be drooling over a new Macbook Pro with the full pro feature set (screen shield, magsafe, fully serviceable/mod-able, etc) with a config like 2x M.2 pci SSD slots, 4x ram slots, 2x USB3, 2x TB3/displayport, 1x USB-C (optional). Oh, and there will be some special innovative cooling system going on the likes of which no one has imagined before!

I'll order some more koolaid and be pretty content if that happens!

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Old 04-19-2018, 11:40 AM   #30
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I'm trying to shorten my reading backlog. This came in:

https://blog.cloudflare.com/arm-takes-wing/

It shows how current ARM technology is almost as fast as the next Intel cream-of-the-crop and how it outperforms it in a lot of cases.
Those Intel samples were from 2016 vs the Qualcomm's 2017 engineering sample. Intel 14nm vs Qualcomm 10nm, I think you've got that the wrong way around. AMD's next gen is going to be going straight to 7nm too. They also ignored Epyc there, which would have more real cores in a 2 socket system with lower power consumption per core compared to Intel.

But none of this tells us anything about the actual low latency performance under load of ARM/Apple processors/chipsets. Ryzen 1 had a significant blip on this front where 4 Intel cores were beating 8 AMD in some cases (we'll see what Ryzen 2 has improved shortly) and that's comparing x86 to x86!

Re the *it's all in the software* thing and sample streaming, the pre-Ryzen AMD/Intel gap couldn't be addressed by software and not everything can be addressed by more cores.

I know of several indy plugin devs who use Hackintosh partitions to develop their Mac plugins and a quick pull of a lever from Apple could )(and will at some point, let's be honest) stop cross-complilation for ARM macOS in its tracks. The amount of audio software will decrease for sure and there will be no Bootcamp of x86 OSes or efficient x86 VMs on Mac either for those who want to develop for other OSes and architectures on Mac.

Since they are barring 32 bit code, emulating x64_64 would be expensive and therefore there might not be any Rosetta-like option for old (ie 6 months or more) software. And how much would Intel/AMD charge for a license in any case since Apple are not drivers any more?
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:19 PM   #31
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It's what I hope, Serr. Not what I see, atm.

I agree they have neglected pro users. Not only in audio, but most other sectors too. I just hope they'll get over that neglect.

Besides, what's the alternative if we decide to jump ship?

I would welcome a laptop that equals the reliability and the performance of my core2duo from 2009 with 24 hour battery life. It doesn't seem hard to do that, does it? Yet, none of the newer machines really offer better performance for what I do. And I don't look forward to tuning yet another OS if Apple keeps up the release pace. Let's not mention reliability...

That's one reason I think it's time for something new. If IBM is capable of running stuff faster* under virtualisation/emulation on their Power platform (PPC), why couldn't Apple use that for ARM? They are still IBM licensees, I believe.

* At the same CPU frequency.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:18 AM   #32
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I think you'd have to buy a really cheap laptop to match the relatively poor build/reliability of Apple laptops. I can't help you there I'm afraid, but this man could shed some light on the issues...

https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup

On a serious note, instead of a rucksack full of dongles users could carry a powerbank. I personally would like to see laptop manufacturers move away from the slimline design ethos back to bulky, but with modern electronics affording an enormous (relatively speaking) battery.

One of the Thinkpads has a hot swappable battery, giving 17 hours of life with the internal + 6 cell internal/plugin one. With another battery you are over 24 hours. Or something like a near-invincible Getac B300 with a 30 hour battery life.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:46 AM   #33
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First off, OSX should work even for the uninitiated. And secondly, there's hardly any docs at all from Apple. We seem to have to work it all out ourselves, with the help of sources like MacAdmins.
Are you signed up for the right accounts with Apple, for developers and server ops there's tons of in-depth documents for us, plus higher level help if you need it, although they're not all accessible publicly, it's easy to sign up for.

As for the uninitiated, i think that's part of the the problem that Apple have had to dumb things down, or hide things up for the masses. And spread OSX/MacOS thinner than it ever has been. It just comes with popularity, it's like people who give Windows a hard time, it's an incredibly well written OS that's just a victim of it's own success.

Bottom line though, for me personally OSX, and MacOS is still really good, barely see an issue, and any issues i have to sort are normally driver, user or some kind of internet browser add-on causing havoc. Very rare will it be intrinsic to MacOS itself.

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Besides, my numbers come from fleets in the corporate/edu world. Most users aren't really knowledgeable when it comes to their computer.
In my experience, many corporate users love it when a machine goes wrong anyway, and they do all they can to get the system to fail so they can shrug their arms up and eat from their 'graze' box. Never been involved in public sector/edu work though, but in the UK that used to be a money pit and spending was through the roof - but things have changed recently with Govt spending over here, so not sure how that effects many of the creative Edu installs, who may have a strong Mac bias.


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I've given up on Safari. I use Chrome and Vivaldi for daily work. Safari is kept clean. No extensions, no bookmarks even. It takes forever to load and it isn't as fast as the two others.
I use around 6-7 browsers for testing web deployments, so i have many running - however, i always come back to safari. I haven't a clue why, as it's undoubtable that Chrome is better, particularly if testing web stuff (It doesn't get stuck in a loop if javascript is wrong for example). I just use Safari for no logical reason whatsoever, i think i've seen so many overloaded Chrome installs that i immediately relate that to it, perhaps! ...I really don't know why i use it.

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I gave up Logic when it was at 9.0 because of the time it took Apple to fix the many bugs.
Yeah Logic 9 was weird, it was active, then they went quiet.. Then it went App Store and had a mini push again, and then LPX popped out of the blue!!

Must say i love LPX, but it has so many of the old cogs running, and which is why i'm reaching out to Reaper for a while to see how it runs. And i must say i love the flexibility, customisation, but most importantly it seems to fit my workflow so much better.

Really miss the components in Logic though, but i'm building them up via third party deals that i'm seeing around the internet.

I've also got Studio One Pro as it came up super cheap if you already own a DAW like Logic, think it was like $100 or something silly on offer, and also recently got a Cubase License so trying that. But right now, i'm snagged up with Reaper as it does a lot of good things, most important is SysEx for my hardware, Studio One won't even handle that. As a multi-machine user, I'm hoping i don't have to go Cubase, because the Dongle thing!

I bet, as usual, i'll end up running back to Logic within 2-3 months, but time will tell! There's so much to love and so much to hate with Logic.

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And I've given up on stuff like iMovie, because Apple killed it. Things like Pages
Again, i don't know why, but i reach for pages when i'm writing some technical docs or instruction manuals for some new software build and EVERY TIME i hit an issue, a feature that has been removed, i mean really silly basic things that Pages cannot do (Like moving pages!!!!), and i think what is going on.

But then you learn that the whole app(s) has been reduced so that they have IOS and MacOS in sync with one another. Which is cool, not for me personally, but i get that a lot of people love that - however, you're left to do that same old thing with Apple where they knock the tower over and then you have to wait for them to rebuild it again so you can get back on to working on the higher floors!!

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I"ve been a Mac user since 1986 or so. But I've managed hundreds of Win machines back in W2K era. Glad I don't have to do that today
I'm still between them Mac/Linux/Win, and i'm not really fussed what i use if i'm honest, not such a big fan as windows but that's mainly as i run virtualisation of real machines for work, so i don't have a straight up 'windows' machine to really appreciate it's added grunt from my CPU's.

Right now, it's shame Reaper doesn't have good MCU support for Mac users, as the Klinke add on is only for windows users. If i really enjoy using Reaper, then for that reason alone i may be jumping to a windows machine for my music. I don't want to, but i'm really not biased one way or the other if it gets the job done.

I've not made money from music for about 2 years now, so it's settling down to be a hobby and music has been much more enjoyable for me, and i can kinda buy equipment that i want, rather than 'need', but most importantly not tied to a particular DAW.


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The TonyMac scene has a lot of VERY knowledgeable people. And they are not fanbois. I also still support many Mac Pro users for photography and audio.
You seem a very handy person, i may be asking you for advice within the coming months!

And yes, the TonyMac scene is good. However, in my experience, There's a whole load of people that try to free ride the work that gets put in, offer nothing back, and then masquerade as legit Apple hardware users on other forums, damning Apple and demanding a fix for issues they've caused themselves.

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In fact, I've built a PPC machine recently, for an artist who was so fed up with some plugin that comes with a built-in shop today that he went back to OS9 to get rid of all the cloud stuff. And, lo and behold, that ancient stuff is faster too.
Yeah i still run a few PPC's, basically to manage some old MIDI hardware i own - and some astrology software (geek out lol), i love the old 08/09 Mac Pro's - those 12 core upwards are killer beasts for the money, i may start collecting them as i've seen some go for silly money.. .Like 100 UK pounds (140-ish).

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And, no, definitely NO USB-C. That's turning into the biggest money pit I've ever seen. AV Pro's with one of these new, light, slender MB Pro's also carry a big bag of USB-C adapters these days.
Is that not appeasing the masses again? I mean, i'm the same with phones, if they kept the iPhone 5 kinda profile and worked on it's battery life - i'd be quite happy, but they have to slim it down and down, moving ports and all this other stuff, so you never actually gain on things that matter!

However, nearly everyone i speak to thinks i'm made for being happy with a 'fat' iPhone 5!

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Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
What's definitely worrying me, is repairability. Apple obsoletes machines after 5 years, these days. That's simply not long enough to warrant the high price. HP's latest are beginning to look very interesting, with a 4 TB SSD, 32 GB ram and a 4 GHz processor, under 2.000$. That leaves budget for a new interface...
I think Apple, since moving to Intel are now going through a period where CPU's have kinda stagnated a little bit. When you compare a 5 year old mac to what's available now, the technology has changed but really the CPU power etc. hasn't jumped in leaps like we're used to.

I think it's that change in technology (i.e. frameworks like Metal etc.) which is causing them to obsolete machines.. It's a big change really in that we'd all run on basically the same tech and the hardware would keep increasing... Now, it's the other way around.

I don't know if you see it like that, or Apple are just money grabbing swines. My biggest concern, like you, is with these silly ports and adapters, oh and when they solder the RAM chips in a board, that's unforgivable. If they do that crap again and it's on the product like i'm looking at, i will walk away immediately.

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And since REAPER works with Debian/Wine, there's not much left keeping me on OSX.
How does that work for you? I've often wondered with WINE, particularly with the Mackie MCU/Klinke thing. Does it give near true performance if you were to put windows on that same box do you know?

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Renaming OSX to MacOS. Even their own devs don't want to use it. It makes finding anything on the net a real pita.
Coming from the dev world i find that many really like to use 'MacOS' to correct anyone who accidentally uses 'OSX', that's my experience of it, it's an elitist thing for most devs i'm sure! One thing though, I find he ObjC/Swift thing can be a little confusing when looking through forums and/or searching the net though, from a coding perspective.

Apple are very heavy on pushing swift.

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Old 04-20-2018, 05:00 AM   #34
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Apple dropping 32 bit support and going with ARM processors are biggies too. The ARM thing in particular is a major upheaval which might turn out very badly
From my perspective, they were really decisive with moving to 64 bit and gave a LOT of notice, i think that's one of the positives for Apple to have the balls to move it along.

Ask someone who works with office apps on Windows and how the 32/64 bit runtime environments are working out for them, it's really confusing, as you can't run both 32/64 bit and certain apps will only work on each.

You don't even think about it on Mac now, as everyone had to move.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:09 AM   #35
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I think you'd have to buy a really cheap laptop to match the relatively poor build/reliability of Apple laptops. I can't help you there I'm afraid, but this man could shed some light on the issues...
I've a 2012 Mac Book, which is my daily workhorse, probably runs around 70 hrs/week, gets thrown in bags, plugged into different monitors/charging docks/usb docks. Into projectors, daily commutes with me.

And honestly, it's still like new, the battery, somehow is still good, and physically it's just not aged - it actually amazes me to think how old it is and the amount of use it's had - even through hot summer months (Running virtual machines and DB servers too).

Yet i look at people who're using PC's with keys that have fallen off, won't sleep correctly when the lid is put down, run for about 2 hours on battery with the fan flat out etc. etc. And i'm so glad i don't have to put up with all that nonsense.

Obviously i don't account for a great number of users, but i've literally earnt several $100k's from that one MacBook in the course of it's 5+ years. If i told a builder or plumber that who's spending far more on power tools etc. what you think they'd say?!

Maybe the 2012 models were pretty good, i don't know, but i've not had any reason to replace it thus far.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:49 AM   #36
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That's great, and there are also a lot of users of Mac hardware who have had issues. I know a couple of them, but that's okay because no computer hardware is made of magic. Conversely there are many users of PC hardware who have had zero issues.

Particularly if you spend anywhere near the amount of money on a PC laptop as people do on Mac laptops. It just so happens there are squillions of cheap PC laptops out there in use. Or gaming laptops where the battery is mostly for show.

Btw, what do you mean by "you can't run both 32/64 bit" re office apps?
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:56 AM   #37
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I think you'd have to buy a really cheap laptop to match the relatively poor build/reliability of Apple laptops. I can't help you there I'm afraid, but this man could shed some light on the issues...

https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup
I've known Louis for years. I used to do repair. I rarely repair macbooks these days, as there are plenty of other services now. There's a few hurdles, like the SMC. You can get the bare processor, as it isn't made by Apple, but you can't get the firmware. You need a Raspberry Pi, a bunch of clip-on adapters and a working SMC from the same macbook to replace an SMC. And these do fail quite a lot.

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On a serious note, instead of a rucksack full of dongles users could carry a powerbank. I personally would like to see laptop manufacturers move away from the slimline design ethos back to bulky, but with modern electronics affording an enormous (relatively speaking) battery.
Yes!

I recently came across the newest HP laptop. 4.4 GHz turbo, 4 TB SSD, 32 GB ram, under 2.000$, very square, not rouded and flat. Looks nice.

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One of the Thinkpads has a hot swappable battery, giving 17 hours of life with the internal + 6 cell internal/plugin one. With another battery you are over 24 hours. Or something like a near-invincible Getac B300 with a 30 hour battery life.
I'm considering those too. But maybe it would be an old one. With a puck. I had one, around 2000, as my Windows machine, when they still were made by IBM. Very sturdy machines. And since there are several upgrade kits available, it would be cheap to pick up an old one and give it a new life.

But I already have a pre 2000 Panasonic Toughbook CF28. Used to be a 486. There's an RPi 3 in there now, running Kali.



The one above isn't mine. Mine is even more beaten up. Very cyberpunk

Anyhow, I need real Gbit ethernet. USB-C won't do. Period. Can't put it in promiscuous mode, can't netboot, doesn't work through a hub, etc. etc.
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:21 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
Are you signed up for the right accounts with Apple, for developers and server ops there's tons of in-depth documents for us, plus higher level help if you need it, although they're not all accessible publicly, it's easy to sign up for.
Yep. I've got two dev accounts. But, no, there's a lot that isn't documented. SMB behaviour in High Sierra, fi. Authentication to the cloud, fi...

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As for the uninitiated, i think that's part of the the problem that Apple have had to dumb things down, or hide things up for the masses. And spread OSX/MacOS thinner than it ever has been. It just comes with popularity, it's like people who give Windows a hard time, it's an incredibly well written OS that's just a victim of it's own success.

Bottom line though, for me personally OSX, and MacOS is still really good, barely see an issue, and any issues i have to sort are normally driver, user or some kind of internet browser add-on causing havoc. Very rare will it be intrinsic to MacOS itself.
Having lived through so many systems (from OS 4 to OSX 10.13) I can see how things used to be different. Apple used to care for cross-platform accessability of data. Ever tried to get pics from a Photos library on another OS? Or read a Pages document on Windows? Or...

And that's just one example where Apple no longer cares.

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In my experience, many corporate users love it when a machine goes wrong anyway, and they do all they can to get the system to fail so they can shrug their arms up and eat from their 'graze' box. Never been involved in public sector/edu work though, but in the UK that used to be a money pit and spending was through the roof - but things have changed recently with Govt spending over here, so not sure how that effects many of the creative Edu installs, who may have a strong Mac bias.
In education, yes. But the kind of user I encounter, is unable to work without their Mac and will come in over the weekend to get things done. They get depressed when their machine isn't working.

Macbooks are twice the price of our Windows laptops. They also last twice as long. Only, that's not due to superior hardware. Ir's due to their users taking far better care. Only about a quarter of Macs get stolen or lost, compared to Windows machines. You'd expect thieves to prefer Mas, seeing their resale value. I've got several Windows users who play football with their machines, or leave them out in the rain.

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I use around 6-7 browsers for testing web deployments, so i have many running - however, i always come back to safari. I haven't a clue why, as it's undoubtable that Chrome is better, particularly if testing web stuff (It doesn't get stuck in a loop if javascript is wrong for example). I just use Safari for no logical reason whatsoever, i think i've seen so many overloaded Chrome installs that i immediately relate that to it, perhaps! ...I really don't know why i use it.
Several other browsers have one process per tab too now.

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Yeah Logic 9 was weird, it was active, then they went quiet.. Then it went App Store and had a mini push again, and then LPX popped out of the blue!!

Must say i love LPX, but it has so many of the old cogs running, and which is why i'm reaching out to Reaper for a while to see how it runs. And i must say i love the flexibility, customisation, but most importantly it seems to fit my workflow so much better.

Really miss the components in Logic though, but i'm building them up via third party deals that i'm seeing around the internet.

I've also got Studio One Pro as it came up super cheap if you already own a DAW like Logic, think it was like $100 or something silly on offer, and also recently got a Cubase License so trying that. But right now, i'm snagged up with Reaper as it does a lot of good things, most important is SysEx for my hardware, Studio One won't even handle that. As a multi-machine user, I'm hoping i don't have to go Cubase, because the Dongle thing!

I bet, as usual, i'll end up running back to Logic within 2-3 months, but time will tell! There's so much to love and so much to hate with Logic.
I'm not a musician, so all the samples and stuff in Logic don't mean much for me. But the musicians I support love it.

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Again, i don't know why, but i reach for pages when i'm writing some technical docs or instruction manuals for some new software build and EVERY TIME i hit an issue, a feature that has been removed, i mean really silly basic things that Pages cannot do (Like moving pages!!!!), and i think what is going on.
TextWrangler for me

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But then you learn that the whole app(s) has been reduced so that they have IOS and MacOS in sync with one another. Which is cool, not for me personally, but i get that a lot of people love that - however, you're left to do that same old thing with Apple where they knock the tower over and then you have to wait for them to rebuild it again so you can get back on to working on the higher floors!!

I'm still between them Mac/Linux/Win, and i'm not really fussed what i use if i'm honest, not such a big fan as windows but that's mainly as i run virtualisation of real machines for work, so i don't have a straight up 'windows' machine to really appreciate it's added grunt from my CPU's.
Win10 seems OK. But the last time I had to work on Windows, for about 6 months, I had font problems. In all browsers and in Filemaker Pro. First page of lists was OK, second page wasn't readable. Spent lots of time on the phone with HP, who kept sending met to MS, who kept sending me to HP. drives me mad.

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Right now, it's shame Reaper doesn't have good MCU support for Mac users, as the Klinke add on is only for windows users. If i really enjoy using Reaper, then for that reason alone i may be jumping to a windows machine for my music. I don't want to, but i'm really not biased one way or the other if it gets the job done.
Scriptability and rich solutions for odd problems is what keeps me with REAPER. I don't have a control surface, but I'm thinking of building one.

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Yeah i still run a few PPC's, basically to manage some old MIDI hardware i own - and some astrology software (geek out lol), i love the old 08/09 Mac Pro's - those 12 core upwards are killer beasts for the money, i may start collecting them as i've seen some go for silly money.. .Like 100 UK pounds (140-ish).
These are good. I still have a few G4's, for data recovery on older SCSI drives and a G5, running REAPER 5...

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I don't know if you see it like that, or Apple are just money grabbing swines.
Of course Apple are money grabbing swines. Just like the rest. It's the corporate world, isn't it?

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How does that work for you? I've often wondered with WINE, particularly with the Mackie MCU/Klinke thing. Does it give near true performance if you were to put windows on that same box do you know?
Performance is good. It's drivers for gear and plugins that are problematic.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:49 PM   #39
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I've known Louis for years. I used to do repair. I rarely repair macbooks these days, as there are plenty of other services now. There's a few hurdles, like the SMC. You can get the bare processor, as it isn't made by Apple, but you can't get the firmware. You need a Raspberry Pi, a bunch of clip-on adapters and a working SMC from the same macbook to replace an SMC. And these do fail quite a lot.
Wow small world, he definitely knows his onions.
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Yes!

I recently came across the newest HP laptop. 4.4 GHz turbo, 4 TB SSD, 32 GB ram, under 2.000$, very square, not rouded and flat. Looks nice.
Yeah, the current fashion of ultraslim stuff isn't practical, except for people who find the weight of some items of clothing excessive. I think some kind of regulation/lawsuit against advertising battery life as playing a video on loop with the processor essentially idling is needed too. We live in a world where 15 hours is really 5 because nobody does that.

Cool FrankenPi project btw!
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