Old 11-22-2017, 04:34 PM   #1
getaway_fromme
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Default soft limiting DI for guitars

Hey y'all! First post pour moi. May I get some feedback from y'all regarding recording levels for guitar DI's (and other instrument DI's, for that matter)?

Q: Do many or any of you utilize a soft limit feature on your interface for recording DI's?

I've not done this before, as I have always kept my DI's going into Reaper at around -12 to -10 peak level using the -20db pull-knob on my Mbox 3 and adjusting the gain to get me to -12 or so. However, I've noticed that when I play through an amp sim like Waves GTR, the sound is a bit weak and just feels dead at -12 peak level.

So, this morning, I disengaged the -20db pull (which causes me to clip the DI input on intermittent peaks) and engaged the soft limit. This gives me a peak level of -0.1 and an RMS level around -12db, so no clipping. I am aware of the general technicalities of using limiters but have never used it for recording DI's. In my opinion, it sounds great and more akin to playing through an amp in a room, even though it is shaving off peaks from the guitar DI.

So, do any of you record this way with your interface? Why or why not?
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:37 PM   #2
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I do use compression on the way in at times but not for the reasons you mentioned nor is it needed. You can just turn the "item level gain" up after the fact.
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:43 PM   #3
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I have an old MXR DynaComp I use on my bass and guitar as first stage of my pedal board, into an amp or DI.
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:34 PM   #4
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It's just adding another distortion stage to your signal, which may or may not sound cool, depending on the sound you're shooting for.

I don't do it because I don't have a hardware limiter on my interface
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:48 PM   #5
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Thanks for all of your input! I agree that it's not needed. The reason I like using the soft limit feature is that I can keep my interface at the same setting without having to twist knobs. Just plug in and forget it. When I'm playing through it live, like when I practice guitar through headphones and just my comp/interface, it sounds and feels more realistic to me with the amp settings I'm used to.

I wonder, does anyone know how this gain staging would compare to playing through an amp, live, not playing back a pre-recorded DI? My apologies if I'm wording this in a weird or difficult-to-understand way.

If it matters, I'm a metal head and tend to dial in djenty-ish rhythm tones.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by getaway_fromme View Post
it sounds and feels more realistic to me with the amp settings I'm used to.
I'd stick with what works.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by getaway_fromme View Post
I wonder, does anyone know how this gain staging would compare to playing through an amp, live, not playing back a pre-recorded DI? My apologies if I'm wording this in a weird or difficult-to-understand way.
It's basically like having a distortion pedal in front of your amp.

Like Karbo says; if you dig it, use it!
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:44 PM   #8
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You can just turn the "item level gain" up after the fact.
Wave's GTR (and any decent amp sim really) has an Input gain knob. There's plenty of other ways to increase that level in real time before it hits the sim, too.


But, yeah, if it's working for you, go with it. Even without the soft limit, though, if you're adding much of any distortion at the sim, you won't notice the clipping anyway.


Now, you ask how this might relate to a real amp. That's kind of complicated. One of the things that has always kind of bugged me about the amp sims out there is that they never actually answer that question. The closest I've ever come is a place in some of the PodFarm literature that says it "works best" around -18dbFS. But what voltage is that meant to represent in meat space? Nobody knows.


I can tell you, though, that if you're hitting 0dbFS, you're pretty well pounding the front of the amp. It's got to be close to the most you could possibly get out of a 9V pedal or active guitar, if not more.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:00 PM   #9
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Wave's GTR (and any decent amp sim really) has an Input gain knob. There's plenty of other ways to increase that level in real time before it hits the sim, too.
Yep, and believe it or not, I saved that for you because I knew you would see it and say it. Mission accomplished, saved me some typing.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:19 PM   #10
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Gee thanks!

I don't love the idea of padding it down and then gaining it back up (but one wonders if the "pad" isn't just less gain, but then one wonders how much gain we really need if the ADC can only encode up to 5V...), but I like even less the idea of wasting your headroom by clipping - hard or soft. Your guitar has a fuckton less S/N ratio than any decent interface out there. Like, you've got at least 30db before you'll even start to hear the interface's noise floor. NO reason to compromise that dynamic range any more at all. You can do that once it's in Reaper if/when you need/want and it'll be easy and silent and you can probably save it as a preset or template or default one way or another.
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Old 11-23-2017, 01:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Yep, and believe it or not, I saved that for you because I knew you would see it and say it. Mission accomplished, ***saved me some typing.****
Er.....?



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Old 11-23-2017, 01:48 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by getaway_fromme View Post
This gives me a peak level of -0.1
Too high
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:22 AM   #13
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...because?
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:37 AM   #14
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...because?
Well, I'm not into the technical details.
But, there is no reason to go into the 0 to -1dbfs range.
Filters, DA, ISP, nothing is perfect up there, afaik.

Nothing wrong with using a limiter, but not for pushing the signal towards 0dbfs.
Old days, analog and 16bit, yes. But not for 24bit digital.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:12 AM   #15
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Well, I'm not into the technical details.
But, there is no reason to go into the 0 to -1dbfs range.
Filters, DA, ISP, nothing is perfect up there, afaik.

Nothing wrong with using a limiter, but not for pushing the signal towards 0dbfs.
Old days, analog and 16bit, yes. But not for 24bit digital.
That's for master output, on a normal channel you can just bring the fader down and no harm done. Maybe there's some tiny amount of sneaky clipping at the ADC stage, but the guy is liking the sound of the clipped signal, so that's all that matters.
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:52 AM   #16
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Again, thank you so much everyone for your input. It is incredibly helpful as I hear so many different random numbers spouted online regarding the topic of recording DI's. Really eye-opening. Thank you.

To go further, another reason why I appreciate all of your feedback is because in the near future I will be re-amping some bandmates with live amps and having tried it before, I've never been happy with the tonal qualities of a DI tracked at -12db peak level and have always avoided going hotter than that. While I'm also adverse to clipping anything when it comes to recording, this technique of soft-limiting is also helpful when running through amp sim presets, like in Waves GTR. Having to adjust the input level on each individual preset gets tiresome and having a unified setting helps me just focus on playing when I have a guitar in my hand at that moment, rather than constantly tweak the input gain. If anything, just using the soft-limit is helpful for practicing, even if I don't use it for recording. It is still of great interest to me to know why clipping the Di is to be avoided and how recording levels in a DAW might translate to the input of a real amp. Knowledge about the S/N ratio has been one of the most useful tidbits I've picked up from y'all, so thank you!

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Old 11-23-2017, 11:59 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
That's for master output, on a normal channel you can just bring the fader down and no harm done. Maybe there's some tiny amount of sneaky clipping at the ADC stage, but the guy is liking the sound of the clipped signal, so that's all that matters.
Of course, if it sounds good it is good.
All I'm saying is limiters for this purpose is out of fashion, for a reason.

I do use a limiter on DI guitars, but that's way below 0,1dbfs,
and then it's hardly doing anything.

Use the input-knob on you GTR to get levels where you want them,
and a software limiter afterwards either on track or on master to get output where you want it.
Here's my further recommendations: http://geir-music.blogspot.no/2016/0...n-staging.html
Best
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Old 11-23-2017, 12:07 PM   #18
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Of course, if it sounds good it is good.
All I'm saying is limiters for this purpose is out of fashion, for a reason.
Yes, like I said, for output formats like mp3/streaming then the ceiling has come down these days. That's a different deal than recording a part.

For a vocal or violin that you want to keep pristine, then it isn't a good idea.

For dirt guitar, no-one will notice, and it might sound better.
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Old 11-23-2017, 12:40 PM   #19
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When you start talking about reamping, I always think that the ideal is to give the amp the same thing that came off the guitar as exactly as possible. That to me means just maintain unity all the way through. That's easier said than done sometimes, though. A lot of interfaces seem to have different max input and output, and many make it very difficult to find actual unity on the input gain knob.

Ideal would be to buffer the guitar (any non-true-bypass pedal, powered but not necessarily on) into a true unity gain line input. Leave all of Reapers faders and gain settings at 0, and then back out a line output with the same max level as the input. Then you're not guessing or wondering. You just know that this is the same as what went in. You can adjust from there by ear, but that basic level shouldn't be a question.


Edit - This what I usually do even when I'm staying in the box. I don't mess with presets, though. PodFarm loads by default with some input gain and I just swap out amps and stuff. Like I said above, though, you can use any plugin you want for gain, clipping, limiting, EQ or whatever before your amp sim. Save that as a track template or FX chain or...

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Old 11-30-2017, 10:42 AM   #20
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Holy crap that is the funniest facebook link EVER!!!!!
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:37 AM   #21
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Holy crap that is the funniest facebook link EVER!!!!!
Sorry, what?
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:54 AM   #22
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FWIW...
My approach...
When you take yer plank and plug it in to a real amp, the amp is taking a piss weak electrical signal and boosting it and converting it in to an audible noise.
If I were to place a mic in front and record it, I'd be aiming for ~ -18dBFS RMS recording.
I aim for the same level with a DI signal.
The way I look at 'amp sims' is they are NOT 'amplifier' simulators. They are 'guitar rig in an optimised position within a professional studio SOUND' simulators... at least the commercial 'name' ones are. The 'they don't sound like the real thing' thing... well, how could they? When was the last time you saw a 'room' option labelled 'your pokey spare room'?
When it comes to what I feed in and out, I use the same approach as any other plugin... because, afterall, it's a plugin, NOT an amplifier.
I aim for ~ -18 going in, - 18 coming out, and do ALL 'virtual guitar' style adjustments within the plugin with a 'what would I do in the real world' approach.
For example, if the amp sounds flat because the input's weak, in a real world scenario, I might throw an overdrive/boost pedal in front of the amp... do that 'in the plugin' either by turning the input on the plugin up or adding a virtual pedal. In my experience, a hot DI signal going into an 'amp sim' plugin usually results in a harsh, fizzy sound.
Point is, I use 'em for sound shaping, NOT signal amplifying.

If what you do works for you, though, that's groovy.
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Old 12-14-2017, 05:57 PM   #23
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FWIW...
My approach...Point is, I use 'em for sound shaping, NOT signal amplifying. If what you do works for you, though, that's groovy.
Thank you, man! Would you change anything about your decisions with regards to different pickups? For example, I'm using EMG's. Active to passive considerations/different approaches?
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:22 AM   #24
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Thank you, man! Would you change anything about your decisions with regards to different pickups? For example, I'm using EMG's. Active to passive considerations/different approaches?
Youre welcome. It's just what I do, if any of it's useful, I'm happy to help.
To be honest, I own quite a few guitars, so I use whatever suits the purpose, but I always record to the same levels, always use the same approach to the amp sim - like I said, it's just another plugin, NOT an amplifier. I do use a Strat with EMGs quite a lot, but that said, I used the same approach with a Jazzmaster this week.

On occasion, I'll use ReaEQ before the sim plugin if I can't quite get exactly THE sound I'm after.

I should say, I don't waste time on setting up 'a sound' at the tracking stage if I'm only DIing. Since, I'm not committing to that sound, approximate will do at that stage.

Its really a 'mindset' thing. Rather than thinking, it's this kind of guitar/pickup, going through this type of amp... it's a 'sound' going into a plugin - once the DI is recorded, whether it was active or passive, Strat or Les Paul is irrelevant to the computer. It's just a wav file.

Metal guys like EMGs because they have a relatively high output, which is great for driving real amps. Recordists like 'em because they're super clear and noiseless. In terms of driving an amp sim, the pickups are irrelevant, because long before that sound gets to the amp sim, it's level is (or should be) more or less the same as any other pickup.
If you have a similar passive guitar, it may be a useful experiment to do a 'sample' recording of your EMG guitar at -18 and then the passive guitar without changing any settings and compare the DI levels. Reason... any pickup you record for the purpose of 'amping' you'd want them all at a similar level, BUT you may choose EMGs, because you want that high gain, clean drive. In order to replicate that 'natural' drive, without adding any 'virtual colour' of a pedal model, you could add the level difference to the sim's input knob - remember we want ~ -18 going in and out the plugin, but inside the plugin, anything goes.
As I said in my previous post, most commercial plugins are 'guitar rig in a optimal position in a pro studio sound' sims, so don't just concentrate all your attention on the amp section. Experiment with the virtual cabs, virtual mics, virtual rooms etc etc.
Once I've got the sound I'm happy with, I render it to another track, remove the plugins and mute the DI. If I use two different virtual mics, I may render each, and the virtual room, to their own tracks - I use Amplitube 4, so in my case that involves soloing each and tracking to a separate track at a time. It would be handy if they did them like drum sims where they can rout multiple outputs.
I'll use the same approach for bass, too if necessary, and I've been known to send a Hammond sim through an AC30/Leslie sim...
Like I say, it's about getting a sound, NOT making it louder.

If you can, it's well worth spending an afternoon or two just dicking about in the plugin, learning what IT'S capable of.
I know a guy who has spent tens of thousands trying to nail a specific guitar sound, guitars, amps, multifx boxes, amp sims and so on. He'll never get there, because he gives up on the gear within a month if it doesn't produce an instant result. I know another guy who nails THAT sound using just a Squier Strat, plugins that came with his DAW and knowhow.
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Old 12-17-2017, 04:23 PM   #25
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....If you can, it's well worth spending an afternoon or two just dicking about in the plugin, learning what IT'S capable of.
None of that answered my question, but I do appreciate all of your info!
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Old 12-24-2017, 12:43 PM   #26
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I use a limiter set at 0 dB when recording, using the DSP built into my audio interface. (You can't really do it after its been digitized, since its already clipped by then.)

This is sort of stopgap. I generally record with peaks of -12 to -8 dB. The limiting normally won't engage at all; there just in case the 'perfect take' has a freak peak.

I do a similar thing on the monitor chain to protect my speakers and ears.
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Old 12-24-2017, 04:52 PM   #27
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For most generic cases, I use IKM's White Channel on the way in. HP around 80 or so, LP around 7K (as a starting point) and very mild compression. I shoot for -10 peaks on the input.
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Old 12-24-2017, 09:36 PM   #28
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I use a limiter set at 0 dB when recording, using the DSP built into my audio interface. (You can't really do it after its been digitized, since its already clipped by then.)

This is sort of stopgap. I generally record with peaks of -12 to -8 dB. The limiting normally won't engage at all; there just in case the 'perfect take' has a freak peak.

I do a similar thing on the monitor chain to protect my speakers and ears.
That is f'ing brilliant. Thank you for that.

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For most generic cases, I use IKM's White Channel on the way in. HP around 80 or so, LP around 7K (as a starting point) and very mild compression. I shoot for -10 peaks on the input.
Wow. How do you measure or decipher the effect of EQ'ing a guitar DI this way? Just practice? Never would've thought to EQ a DI. Interesting.
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