Old 11-19-2017, 12:24 PM   #1
spottydog10
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Default Acoustic guitar

Can anyone give some feedback and suggestions on this AC guitar sound.
I find it a bit fizzy but if I pull back anywhere in the 1-4k area it sounds dull and lifeless.
It's recorded with a large condenser mic, tried at various postions. This one is 8 inches from the 12 fret. It's a nice Martin and the instrument sounds fine in real life.
Any help appreciated.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actest
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:15 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
Can anyone give some feedback and suggestions on this AC guitar sound.
I find it a bit fizzy but if I pull back anywhere in the 1-4k area it sounds dull and lifeless.
It's recorded with a large condenser mic, tried at various postions. This one is 8 inches from the 12 fret. It's a nice Martin and the instrument sounds fine in real life.
Any help appreciated.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actest
To my ears it sounds kind of thin, and lacks some warm body in the lower mid and bottom. A very accomplished guitarist friend of mine once played me a song of his where he used a single LDC positioned about three feet away and pointed at the sound hole. His acoustic guitar sound was very balanced and warm. It sounded like it would sound if you were listening to it in the room. I've used that unconventional method of miking for acoustic guitar ever since on my own recordings. You do have to have a very quiet room to do it like this though, because you will need to crank the gain up more on the LDC.
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:19 PM   #3
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Sounds reasonably fine to me, I definitely hear far worse in posted examples. I would not want more low end unless it is one of the only instruments in the mix, with a full band this is more than meaty enough; and it isn't unnaturally bright which is also good.
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:27 PM   #4
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Sounds reasonably fine to me, I definitely hear far worse in posted examples. I would not want more low end unless it is one of the only instruments in the mix, with a full band this is more than meaty enough; and it isn't unnaturally bright which is also good.
I agree that if it's in a mix with other guitars, bass, and drums that it would sit fine in the mix, but the more exposed it is, the more I would want a fuller bodied sound.
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Sounds reasonably fine to me, I definitely hear far worse in posted examples. I would not want more low end unless it is one of the only instruments in the mix, with a full band this is more than meaty enough; and it isn't unnaturally bright which is also good.
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I agree that if it's in a mix with other guitars, bass, and drums that it would sit fine in the mix, but the more exposed it is, the more I would want a fuller bodied sound.
After a bit of ReaEQ, bad buss mojo, ReaComp and a hint of a good reverb

https://www.dropbox.com/s/om8e7dtxsl...uitar.mp3?dl=0

What do you guys think ?
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by lolilol1975 View Post
After a bit of ReaEQ, bad buss mojo, ReaComp and a hint of a good reverb

https://www.dropbox.com/s/om8e7dtxsl...uitar.mp3?dl=0

What do you guys think ?
The body sounds better, but it lost the sheen, and edge of air that the original has. Like Karbo said, if he's going to use it in a mix with other instruments, it's prolly fine the way it was. I was judging it as if it were going to be as presented, by itself.
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Sounds reasonably fine to me, I definitely hear far worse in posted examples. I would not want more low end unless it is one of the only instruments in the mix, with a full band this is more than meaty enough; and it isn't unnaturally bright which is also good.
I totally agree, it's sounds good here, and well balanced, especially for a mono AcGtr. As Karbo mentioned, the bass might become a problem when mixed with other instruments, but I see not reason it can't be adjusted accordingly.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:15 PM   #8
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My 2 cents:

Yeah, something is wrong with this acoustic guitar sound. When I clicked the sample, I thought I was listening to a piezo acoustic/electric pickup, and I was going to suggest using a mic.

Listening on Barefoot MM27s in a treated control room, this recording sounds cheap, plastic, and fake. It does not sound like a "nice martin". I would not put it on a record, if I had the option to re-record. There is a kind of metallic peakiness all over the upper mids, that I could not much improve with my console EQ.

You don't specify what mic you are using, and I suspect that's the culprit. Can you post a clip with, say, an SM57 recording in the same spot?

A lot of cheap condensers have, shall we say, a "unique" sonic profile in the upper midrange. It might be good on one source, and bad on another.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:36 PM   #9
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My 2 cents:

Yeah, something is wrong with this acoustic guitar sound. When I clicked the sample, I thought I was listening to a piezo acoustic/electric pickup, and I was going to suggest using a mic.

Listening on Barefoot MM27s in a treated control room, this recording sounds cheap, plastic, and fake. It does not sound like a "nice martin". I would not put it on a record, if I had the option to re-record. There is a kind of metallic peakiness all over the upper mids, that I could not much improve with my console EQ.

You don't specify what mic you are using, and I suspect that's the culprit. Can you post a clip with, say, an SM57 recording in the same spot?

A lot of cheap condensers have, shall we say, a "unique" sonic profile in the upper midrange. It might be good on one source, and bad on another.
Heh heh, to each his own..
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:33 PM   #10
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The body sounds better, but it lost the sheen, and edge of air that the original has. Like Karbo said, if he's going to use it in a mix with other instruments, it's prolly fine the way it was. I was judging it as if it were going to be as presented, by itself.
Yeah, after I posted I added some transient controller magic to compensate for this.
I agree with yep that the mic introduced some annoying upper mid frequencies, which I tried to remove (I suck at EQ-ing). But it's not an entirely bad recording as it can be somewhat corrected I think.

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Old 11-20-2017, 05:09 AM   #11
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Thanks all for your comments.
I agree with Yep as to the sound.

That test was recorded using a Rode NT-1.
I have also test recorded with an SE 2200a2 and a pair of SE5 pencil mics.It's possible that the type of playing (half riff/half strum) is a factor as that guitar in full strum mode is pretty full sounding usually.

Yep: I haven't got a SM58 but can go out and get one. Is it best to get the 58 or the 57?

Thanks,
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:08 AM   #12
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Thanks all for your comments.
Is it best to get the 58 or the 57?

Thanks,
Mike
If it was me I'd get the 57. They're pretty much the same except for the 58's windscreen/ pop filter, supposedly useful for vocals. IMHO the 58's are better hammers than vocal mics but they do work. Been using my large and ancient collection of 58s on guitar cabs & Kick Drum. Work better on the cabs, not so great on the Kick, might be pretty good on the snare, dunno haven't tried that yet. But I digress. Main thing I found with either of them is a good Pre makes a huge difference.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:51 AM   #13
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Thanks Softshell.
I'll be running the mic either (or as well as)through a Mackie Onyx and Prosonus channel strip.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:58 AM   #14
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I thought I was listening to a piezo acoustic/electric pickup, and I was going to suggest using a mic.
Sorry, that's a bit of a stretch. That recording in no way sounds like a piezo (happy to demo the difference). As I originally stated it sounds OK enough that without context, nothing should really be changed until it is in context. The only exception is if this is the only track in the mix.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:19 AM   #15
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What kind of Martin is it? What strings? How does it sound when you record it with your phone?
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:16 AM   #16
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It's a DM I've recorded with it before, sounds nice.
My phone just about makes calls never mind recording on it
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:35 AM   #17
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It's a DM I've recorded with it before, sounds nice.
My phone just about makes calls never mind recording on it
This isn't my friend that I referenced earlier, but he's using the same farther back technique with almost the same mic as my friend and I have. We both have the second gen Rode NT1, where this is an NT1a, but the effect is pretty similar. At two or three feet back the Rode mics start sounding pretty balanced for tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LB-6DeDSA0
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:36 AM   #18
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That's worth a try, I was trying to minimise the room but I can give it a shot.
I like your mate's playing but it does sound a little brittle at the top end, or is it just me being hyper critical?

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Old 11-20-2017, 11:07 AM   #19
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That's worth a try, I was trying to minimise the room but I can give it a shot.
I like your mate's playing but it does sound a little brittle at the top end, or is it just me being hyper critical?
Like I said above, that's not my friend, but just someone using the farther back Rode on acoustic like my friend does. This guy is also using an NT1a which has an intentional presence peak for male vocals that is much more emphasized than the older plain NT1 mics like my friend and I both use.
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:23 AM   #20
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Ok, just trying make sure it's the mic (or placement, or the room) and not the guitar. Yeah a DM should not sound like that. Like others said, it could be ok in the mix depending on the context, but I personally would not be happy with that sound. Getting a 57 is a good idea just in general, and especially if your room isn't treated. For a budget LDC, I've been happy with the Oktava MK-319 - there are a number of used ones out there for under $150 including shipping.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:33 PM   #21
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Well, here's a thing.
Within the project for that song I exported another test AC which sounded funny to me.
I then cut and pasted the same track into a new project, exported and there is quite a difference.

I have checked no plugins are on either that track or the master buss and checked that project settings where the same (44k 24-bit) and that the mp3 export settings were identical.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actestoriginal2
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actest3

Huh??
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:54 PM   #22
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Well, here's a thing.
Within the project for that song I exported another test AC which sounded funny to me.
I then cut and pasted the same track into a new project, exported and there is quite a difference.

I have checked no plugins are on either that track or the master buss and checked that project settings where the same (44k 24-bit) and that the mp3 export settings were identical.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actestoriginal2
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actest3

Huh??
Any differences are over 24dB away FYI based on null test and that could be due to Sound Cloud's compression processing. I've listened again (good room, great monitors), there is really nothing "wrong" with this recording. It isn't perfect but that isn't the point so could you get it better, probably based on changing mic position playing style etc but is it bad, definitely not - so I'll stick to my guns on what you hear now, is irrelevant unless this guitar is the only thing that will ever be in the final mix.

IOW, it's good enough that buying gear is not going to solve whatever it is you don't like, if it does, it still could have been solved by mic placement or very basic EQing et al. It's really important to add the other tracks this will live with and then see how it sits there. Otherwise, this will turn into a goose chase trying to fix something that isn't broken; there are already people asking you to buy gear for Christ's sake.

I also have an HD28 and your DM sounds roughly like I would expect it to sound with new strings FWIW.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:18 PM   #23
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karbomusic,

This is the original stereo miked guitar I did with some rhythm track for context. I just find it a bit weak and insubstantial despite eq-uing the crap out of it several times.
It could be my playing - I'm not averse to constructive criticism.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/ackit
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:23 PM   #24
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karbomusic,

This is the original stereo miked guitar I did with some rhythm track for context. I just find it a bit weak and insubstantial despite eq-uing the crap out of it several times.
It could be my playing - I'm not averse to constructive criticism.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/ackit
Thanks, the hi-hat is clashing with the guitar's high frequencies as an FYI and in that setting makes the guitar sound like it is the one at fault but it really isn't per se - what's interesting is what bothers me about that does not exist in the AC only test so we know it is the two together.

If I were mixing this, instead of isolating frequencies and cutting those, I'd apply a small rolloff using a small, but not large amount of high-shelf filter to the acoustic - not too much, start with at 2-3 dB high shelf cut - shelves are always more gentle, natural sounding and useful than bell curves when given the choice.

Secondly, based on what I'm hearing (through work headphones at this moment). You play plenty well enough and with that being said, if you were to duplicate the performance on another track and pan/left right, this would sound pretty darn good. I'm not saying this is the best acoustic guitar recording "eva" but I'm surely not hearing anything that requires buying gear to fix.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:32 PM   #25
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karbomusic,

This is the original stereo miked guitar I did with some rhythm track for context. I just find it a bit weak and insubstantial despite eq-uing the crap out of it several times.
It could be my playing - I'm not averse to constructive criticism.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/ackit
I agree with your thought on this... but the ac3 sounds basically OK... at least good enough to work with via plugins and layering a couple dupes of the track...

I'd give it a try if I could dl a copy of it

wonder if you can post a dl version somewhere
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:42 PM   #26
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[QUOTE=karbomusic;1915029]Thanks, the hi-hat is clashing with the guitar's high frequencies as an FYI and in that setting makes the guitar sound like it is the one at fault but it really isn't per se - what's interesting is what bothers me about that does not exist in the AC only test so we know it is the two together. QUOTE]

Thanks karbomusic. Re the hihat/AC clash how would you best make this work? Cut the hat altogether or an eq of some sort? I'd like to keep them both in if possible but again - whatever works.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:54 PM   #27
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Thanks karbomusic. Re the hihat/AC clash how would you best make this work? Cut the hat altogether or an eq of some sort? I'd like to keep them both in if possible but again - whatever works.
I'd try that high shelf I mentioned in that same reply of mine on the acoustic and/or hat just to see what it sounds like or which one sounds better - no guarantees but it is the obvious first choice. In ReaEQ band #4 is already configured that way so you could insert it on either/both tracks and give it slight cut similar to this (use your ears)...



That being said, high-hats often end up towards the left or right in the stereo field so the clash might also be avoided somewhat by having acoustic panned towards the opposite side of the hat. As you probably are figuring out, that all depends on what other elements will end up in the mix and where you want to put stuff vs where you need to put stuff to fix issues and so on.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:19 PM   #28
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Thanks mate, I'll give the roll off a crack tomorrow.
I'm still unconvinced that the take is "the one" though - the guitar may need a bit more light and shade but keeping consistency as well.


hopi, feel free to download the wave file and have a mess with it

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19A...zuJ-uyGxvOGVu1
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:21 PM   #29
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Thanks mate, I'll give the roll off a crack tomorrow.
I'm still unconvinced that the take is "the one" though - the guitar may need a bit more light and shade but keeping consistency as well.
Yep, I surely get and understand that part. I'm just think getting it like you want is well within reach which is a good thing.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:08 PM   #30
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"but I'm surely not hearing anything that requires buying gear to fix. "

I should have put some caveats in my unsolicited recommendation, namely try other things first - eq'ing, better treatment, different mic placement. I wouldn't usually suggest buying different gear to fix a problem - few things as tiresome as a thread full of "you should buy THIS mic."

But spottydog10 should trade for/buy/borrow a different mic.

Reading up on the NT1 (no, I am not familiar with this mic aside from this recording so take this with how many ever grains of salt you want), some people like it, some are neutral, and some people hate it for pretty much the reason why I think this guitar recording sounds bad - it's honky with overemphasized mids. Piezo-ish (and yes I am familiar with how a piezo sounds v. a mic). And to my ears, it's not subtle.

A good acoustic guitar should sound "good" without needing eq or other plugins for it to do so. Sure, eq will likely be needed to make it sit in your mix, but it shouldn't be needed to correct the original recording. IMHO this mic is the wrong tool for the job, and there are any number of other mics that can be had for about the same price that will produce far better results when recording an acoustic guitar, which will sound good on a variety of sources, and which you will be happy to own for as long as you are recording. "Good" guitar sound is fairly subjective I know, but I can objectively say that does not sound like a Martin, nor does the OP care for the sound. Can it be fixed in the mix? To an extent maybe, but a reasonable and logical solution is to use a different mic, one that produces a good result from the beginning.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:16 PM   #31
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"but I'm surely not hearing anything that requires buying gear to fix. "

I should have put some caveats in my unsolicited recommendation, namely try other things first -
It wasn't about your reply, somewhere father up was about getting a '57 et al because the sample sounds like a piezo which it obviously doesn't so I embellished because there isn't that much wrong here. Meaning something as simple as how the person play's or mic position and/or just getting ramped up on what to expect, will make as much if not far more difference. I'm just not hearing a microphone issue here... where the mic position/approach wouldn't make more difference than the mic used (generally). If I didn't have a mic locker, I suppose I couldn't come to that conclusion but it's how I did.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:20 PM   #32
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hopi, feel free to download the wave file and have a mess with it

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19A...zuJ-uyGxvOGVu1

got it... PM me an email addy and I'll send it back to you

you might not like it but what the hell... %^)
I do think it will live better against the drums
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:29 AM   #33
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the instrument sounds fine in real life.
You've listened with your ears 8 inches in front of the 12th fret?

It does sound a bit "hard", and maybe short of warmth? Are the strings fresh on?
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:20 AM   #34
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spottydog10 should trade for/buy/borrow a different mic.
Nah, he should buy a different guitar, and get a new house with a different room to record in! <ggg>
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:34 AM   #35
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Nah, he should buy a different guitar, and get a new house with a different room to record in! <ggg>
Are you using Monster cable? XD I keed, I keed...
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:48 AM   #36
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Just My 2 cents.

Just about any condenser mic for acoustic guitar, is going to better IMHO, than a dynamic mic (sm57).

Another thought. With that Rode Condenser you have, try and mic it at you right hand about 6 inches from the bridge area, not at the sound hole, but just outside the sound hole closer to the bridge.

Regards,
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:59 AM   #37
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Just My 2 cents.

Just about any condenser mic for acoustic guitar, is going to better IMHO, than a dynamic mic (sm57).
Exactly..
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:14 AM   #38
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Can anyone give some feedback and suggestions on this AC guitar sound.
I find it a bit fizzy but if I pull back anywhere in the 1-4k area it sounds dull and lifeless.
It's recorded with a large condenser mic, tried at various postions. This one is 8 inches from the 12 fret. It's a nice Martin and the instrument sounds fine in real life.
Any help appreciated.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actest
Welcome to the frustrating world of 'why doesn't my acoustic guitar as good as in real life', or what I like to call: take that sound and shove it!

Load knows the regular forum members know about my wonderful journey to get a decent acoustic guitar?! hehehe

Here is a thread, for example: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=197663

The only help I can provide is not in getting the sound you want, but learning to live with the sound you get.

But first, I should share one of the best quote I got from a forum member:

"If I'm close micing an acoustic with one mic, I go in with the idea that the microphone is ABSOLUTELY a wah wah, who's pedal position changes along with how I angle the guitar to the mic."

And the point is this: You are not going to get the same sound as real life, listen carefully to examples in many songs you like - we have only learned to enjoy and appreciate acoustic guitars in songs we like, but none are like real life -- so you need to decide from the get go what sound you will settle on. Will it be a rich ringing high in harmonics, lush warm low end boomy, punchy slappy percussive, a honky nasal-like country western, is the guitar in the front and important, or does it play a supportive role in the back like a keyboard filling the silent spaces, etc?

Once you know the sound you want, then you can try to record something to get you there. And this is where the fun starts; do you have the right gear and talent to get you there? Not only will you need the right gear, you have to play the guitar in such a manner that the sound will come out right, place the mic at the right spot (i.e. choose the setting of 'WAW WAW pedal' and you need to process the sound to re-create the sound you heard somewhere, that you choose would fit the role in your song.

If you are like me, you may not have the gear, not know exactly how to play the guitar to get THAT sounds, and know how the Pink Floyd engineers treated the signal, for example. So what then? And this is where I'm currently at, do your best, take that sound and shove it in your mix.

Oh yeah, if someone mentions the importance of treating a room, then yes that can help. I put up some pillows and blankets over my bed the other day and, while it didn't fix everything wrong, it helped tame some really nasty overtone/harmonics/unexplainable sounds artifacts, that I normally have; it made the post-recording EQing treatment less of a nightmare.

One last bit: last night I was listening to a pro sound engineer/producer explain how to EQ and mix an acoustic guitar and when he hit the SOLO button and I heard the acoustic guitar on its own my jaw dropped. It sounded terrible - not only was the overall sound average, but it had distortion artifacts everywhere due to fact that the track had been severely treated with time stretching and probably some auto-tuning. But when he blended the acoustic in the mix you could not here any of these defects, it sounded great and played its role perfectly in the song.

So there you have it. From one 'nit picky' amateur to another, do with what you got and have fun.


Last edited by RDBOIS; 11-21-2017 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:35 AM   #39
BenK-msx
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had a quick shifty and i observed that what you probably find unpleasant is the fizz at about 5.5-6k often a problem on strummy guitar, as i do like a bit of strummy guitar myself. just notched in that zone very briefly and was better, can lose life of course.

also it is the area as (sir) yep eluded that some condensers decide to magnify and share with the world unnecessarily in a gravelly not so pleasant way.

my cheap ribbon not pointed directly at the guitar gets rid of all that off the bat but its a more roomy sound not everyone would want.

a stereo mic approach gives a more natural approach and would likely help, xy is easy, m/s if you got the necessary fig8 mic.

i wager a minor mic position/angle tweak would tame those transient bits.

best of luck tho,
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:37 AM   #40
Greedy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
Nah, he should buy a different guitar, and get a new house with a different room to record in! <ggg>
Well duh.

I get it, more/better gear does not equal better recordings. But the OP's original complaint was that he didn't like the sound of his guitar when recorded, that it sounded "fizzy," and that the guitar sounds good in person. He's tried different mic placements, and he tried fixing the sound using eq. He wasn't asking - at first anyways - "how do I fit this into a mix?"

Now the sound he got is serviceable, and in a mix with drums and bass it works well enough. He doesn't need to buy a new mic to make a good sounding recording. But if he wants a recording that is a reasonable facsimile of what his guitar actually sounds like, he should consider using a different mic (with the assumption that he has exhausted mic placement possibilities). It's not like he recorded with a pair of 414s and I'm suggesting that using a U87 instead will really bring out the sheen. He recorded using a budget mic that emphasizes frequencies that dramatically changed the character of the sound of his guitar (and not in a good way imo), and I'm saying there are other budget-friendly mics available that will produce more natural results.

Last edited by Greedy; 11-21-2017 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Edit for clarity
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