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Old 04-16-2018, 05:34 PM   #41
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E.g. Shure says: "For the SM58, the frequency range to first exhibit distortion is centered around 100 Hz, close to the resonant frequency of the microphone's diaphragm. At 100 Hz, the measured MAX SPL is 150 dB SPL..."
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:02 PM   #42
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He said that without the popscreen, there were only plosives (which I interpreted to mean "no resonant ring".) So I think he's talking about a shock mount for the mic, with the pop screen mounted below the shock mount, to prevent the popscreen ringing from infiltrating the mic. But it all does seem a little odd, as normally a pop screen wouldn't ring so much. But I'm not a rapper, and i don't have his mic/pop screen/mic stand, so who knows...
Ah, okay, cool. I missed that bit.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:39 PM   #43
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Is it? I see numbers in that range here and there... the AKG C535-EB claims 130 sustained max, 144 peak (for 1% distortion).
It's an exponential scale...

147 db is something you will never encounter. Unless, of course, you're measuring a jet engine, or recording explosions from close range. In that case, you'd better be far away and using another mic.

I reckon it is calculated and not measured. And I guess it is calculated by the marketing department.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:01 PM   #44
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It's an exponential scale...

147 db is something you will never encounter. Unless, of course, you're measuring a jet engine, or recording explosions from close range. In that case, you'd better be far away and using another mic.

I reckon it is calculated and not measured. And I guess it is calculated by the marketing department.
I've read that plosives right at the mic can get to around 140? And close-mic'ing some drums, especially in the port of a kick with a heavy foot, can exceed it, no?

Not meaning to be contrary here... the 150dB for the SM58 I got from this link, which at least doesn't read like marketing... they also mention a few cases where instruments get into the 140's when close mic'ed. ("The loudest orchestral instrument, a trumpet, can theoretically produce a MAX SPL of 155 dB SPL at 1 inch, but only in its upper register.") And they acknowledge their limitations: "In the 10 kHz range, 180 dB SPL is the MAX SPL of the SM58. However, this is a calculated measurement as Shure Engineering had no means to create such enormous and dangerous SPL."
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Old 04-17-2018, 02:24 PM   #45
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No, it can't.

I doubt that plosives can reach 140 dB. Maybe if a drop of spit hits the membrane. But that's not sound. That's direct impact.

120 dB is the pain limit. Instant hearing damage. That's 20 Pa pressure.

20 dB louder would require 100 times more energy. No instrument or speaker can produce that in real life. Some get close, but we don't stick the mic inside the trumpet, do we?

That kind of sound level would only be possible in a closed space, like in the horn of a horn loaded speaker, or a completely closed measurement system, driven by a speaker. I don't think even a hefty guitar amp, with the mic stuck to the grille, would reach 140 dB. Maybe inside a kick drum? Frankly, I don't know. I've never recorded rock drums. And I know it's not a good place for the average condenser mic.

Small explosions at close range, like a gun shot, could reach that level. That's one pressure wave.

And if you go back in history, the specs for a mic that's famed never to distort, the Senn MD21, don't even report a number. I've seen 160 dB for that mic, but Sennheiser never measured it, as it is meaningless.

So, yes, you can measure it in the lab. But, no, it doesn't mean much in real life sound.

The problem with all these specs, is that they aren't complete. No way to compare, if you don't know the measurement procedure. You'll find lists that go up to 150 dB for "natural" occurring sound, but as they don't specify distance to the source, that number is useless.

Take the example of a jet engine. It's obvious you can't measure the sound level directly in front of the exhaust. So they're usually measured at a 90° angle. But even in that position, how much of the signal is "sound" and how much is "thrust" (static pressure)?

For me, it's simple. I don't want to be close to anything over 100 dB without serious hearing protection. Tinnitus is enough. I don't want to end up deaf.
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Old 04-17-2018, 02:52 PM   #46
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Maybe inside a kick drum?
It gets close, I measured maybe 20 years ago though, however, it wouldn't take me 2 minutes to yell into my dB meter from inch away and answer the question immediately. Regardless, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a diaphragm on a dynamic mic distort and when it comes to plosives, IMHO SPL is irrelevant because it's now a burst of wind.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:20 PM   #47
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Well, I certainly don't claim any personal experience with particular SPL levels, and I can believe it's all marketing wank. But I have read numerous sources saying that kick drums mic'd at the port can cross 140 dB.

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I doubt that plosives can reach 140 dB.
I'm having a hard time researching this... This venerable list (not sure what it's worth) claims 146.1 dB means "AIR PARTICLE VELOCITY(WIND) IS 1 METER PER SECOND OR ABOUT 2 MILES PER HOUR", which seems easily in the realm of a plosive, even if the flow in a plosive is turbulent? Oh and this thesis (on the subject of plosives and mics) created a plosive simulator at 140 dB explicitly to match human plosives. Apparently that is the standard specified in IEC 60268-4:2010 for testing, but I couldn't verify.

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120 dB is the pain limit. Instant hearing damage. That's 20 Pa pressure.
Wikipedia lists 130-140 dB -- at the ear -- as the pain threshold. And 120 dB listed as instant hearing damage, but again, measured at the ear, not the sound source. E.g. it lists trumpets at 130 dB at 0.5m (presumably at max trumpet volume) and loudest human voice at 1 inch as being 135 dB.

Quote:
I don't think even a hefty guitar amp, with the mic stuck to the grille, would reach 140 dB. Maybe inside a kick drum? Frankly, I don't know. I've never recorded rock drums. And I know it's not a good place for the average condenser mic.
People often record kick drums at the port, where the SPL is maximal.

Quote:
Small explosions at close range, like a gun shot, could reach that level. That's one pressure wave.
The .30-06 rifle is listed on wikipedia at 171 dB, 1m from the shooter.

Quote:
The problem with all these specs, is that they aren't complete.
Agreed.

Quote:
For me, it's simple. I don't want to be close to anything over 100 dB without serious hearing protection. Tinnitus is enough. I don't want to end up deaf.
Also agreed.

But given the numbers above it doesn't seem preposterous for the OP's mic to be spec'ed at a max SPL of 147 dB. Even if they haven't measured it explicitly they may well have a good sense of what the diaphragm can tolerate, and 147 dB, though obviously incredibly loud, also doesn't seem insanely out of the range of what a mic could conceivably encounter in regular use (kick drums at the port, etc).

The lesson of course is: don't beatbox into mics you care about. :-)
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:28 PM   #48
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Just one thing: the Wikipedia page references a scientific article:

Quote:
The nominal dynamic range of human hearing is from the standard threshold of hearing to the threshold of pain. A nominal figure for the threshold of pain is 130 decibels, but that which may be considered painful for one may be welcomed as entertainment by others. Generally, younger persons are more tolerant of loud sounds than older persons because their protective mechanisms are more effective. This tolerance does not make them immune to the damage that loud sounds can produce.
Emphasis is mine.

from:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/intens.html

And that is NOT 140 dB, but 130. If you look further, you'll find that the most quoted/accepted number is 120 dB. If you go back in time in your research, often you'll find also 112 dB. It seems mankind has become less sensitive to high noise levels.

They also list a jet engine as "only" 140 dB...

Again, it shows how difficult comparing these numbers is.

And if Karbo came close to 140 dB in a kick drum, I'll gladly accept that.

Keeping the Munson curve in mind, it sounds reasonable. Also, I would take the Shure measurement much more serious, as it provides some context: at 100 Hz. Low frequencies carry more energy, in general.

I'll still be running before the membrane of a dynamic mic shows distortion
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:22 PM   #49
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And if Karbo came close to 140 dB in a kick drum, I'll gladly accept that.
I don't remember for sure that's why I made the 20 years ago reference but I do remember measuring then looking for mics that were in that 130 dB+ range so I can't say it was 140. On another note, I'm 99% sure this problem is plosives not pure SPL. Holding that thought I did just pull out my SPL meter and gave it my best shot and was only able to reach 111 db SPL (less than 1" away but to the side to remove plosives) so that makes me think it's plosives even more (assuming I haven't forgotten the main idea above which is possible since I haven't read all the posts).

Also, even in the kick drum example we could be dealing with the sudden rush of air, in that case I guess it is SPL but hold your hand in front you can feel the pressure hit it FWIW which is the thing that prompted me to measure way back then to begin with. Also, no one (again assuming I didn't miss) has asked just how close he's singing and so on, eating the mic changes things quickly.
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:46 PM   #50
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Yeah I'm assuming all the >140 stuff (in terms of things that might be encountered by a mic) is peak SPL from air/plosives/etc. Shure does list the trumpet having 155 dB "in theory" from 1 inch away, but I haven't seen that elsewhere (wikipedia mentions 130).

It seems there are two questions raised here: whether mic specs of 140+ dB max SPL are BS, and whether they are useful, even if they are accurate enough. Seems like they aren't BS to me (at least, they don't have to be, marketing wank aside), and in terms of usefulness, I think knowing that a mic can handle the loudest shit I'm liable to record (which is probably a kick drum port) and still have 5 or 10dB SPL of headroom above that is a good thing to know.

(Karbo -- I know you said you didn't read all the posts, so: nobody's suggesting that the OP is approaching the limits of the mic.)
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:49 PM   #51
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I did just pull out my SPL meter and gave it my best shot and was only able to reach 111 db SPL
This is pretty funny to imagine, btw. :-)
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:50 PM   #52
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(Karbo -- I know you said you didn't read all the posts, so: nobody's suggesting that the OP is approaching the limits of the mic.)
I guess what I meant was we probably need to ask that question, how close and how intense as I could see the technique itself really stressing the diaphragm. I thought he said hip hop which depending on sub genre probably isn't the same as Karen Carpenter 12" away from the mic.
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:53 PM   #53
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This is pretty funny to imagine, btw. :-)
I was waiting for my wife to come upstairs and ask WTF am I doing.
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:07 PM   #54
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More fodder: this paper cites this paper and says:

"In a remarkable work by FEARN [5] percussion players were identified as exposed to probably the highest peak sound pressure levels in music exposures, reaching 140-146 dB or even 148 dB (depending on instrument type, room characteristics, etc.) and thus experiencing the highest risk of hearing damage."

I wish I could find a non-paywalled copy of that Fearn study to see what's up with those remarkable numbers, but no luck. (Notable in that it implies the players themselves were exposed to that SPL, presumably not by putting their ears at the kick drum port.)
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:41 PM   #55
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Captain obvious entry... I'd have to think the extreme transient w/short peak is at play in achieving those numbers percussion wise. IOW, the energy required to create 140 dB is directly related to how long it needs to be sustained.
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:56 PM   #56
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Captain obvious entry... I'd have to think the extreme transient w/short peak is at play in achieving those numbers percussion wise. IOW, the energy required to create 140 dB is directly related to how long it needs to be sustained.
Yeah. Even so, 148 dB at the player's ear... lord. That must be some up-to-11 drumming, if true.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:17 AM   #57
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Interestingly, it is snare drum (snare off), orchestral bells and marimba that give the highest peak SPL in that paper.

It makes intuitive sense, that frequencies we are most sensitive to, in the midrange speech areas, would cause the most damage to hearing.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:44 AM   #58
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From Table 1, aren't the highest peak SPLs for Cymbals, Drums, Snare Drum (snare off), and Snare Drum (snare on), in that order?
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:48 AM   #59
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From Table 1, aren't the highest peak SPLs for Cymbals, Drums, Snare Drum (snare off), and Snare Drum (snare on), in that order?
Quoted for truth. Had a drummer who was very good at positioning his China Crash cymbal to annoy the keyboard player (whom he didn't get along with). Had another drummer who spent his first 10 years in stadiums, so when we were doing our little club gigs his snare hits would literally make you run for cover if not careful.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:53 AM   #60
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I have yet to meet a drummer who can play as quietly as they think they can play. :-)
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #61
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From Table 1, aren't the highest peak SPLs for Cymbals, Drums, Snare Drum (snare off), and Snare Drum (snare on), in that order?
Oh yeah, I was looking at the graphs, which aren't so clear as to the peak because it's such a thin time line.

Man, I would ban cymbals from practice rooms if I could!

...except for jazz players. They are allowed to use them because they have shown themselves to be responsible owners
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:40 PM   #62
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I have yet to meet a drummer who can play as quietly as they think they can play. :-)
I've played with a few who were extremely good at it, as in we're playing rock pop/classic rock, 5 feet away from people eating a quiet dinner in a nice restaurant, but not most of them I've met!
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Old 04-18-2018, 02:46 PM   #63
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Purchased a universal shock mount. Will see how it goes
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Old 04-19-2018, 04:40 AM   #64
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Purchased a universal shock mount. Will see how it goes
Good luck. Let us know.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:29 AM   #65
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You can also trying pointing the mic at your nose, cheek, neck etc to try and get closer without plosives.

Getting really fancy, a high-pass filter side chained to a frequency dependent compressor, so when the plosive frequencies get loud, the high pass kicks in and kills them.
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Old 04-23-2018, 09:50 AM   #66
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separate boom stand with pop filter attached. problem freakin solved.
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