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Old 06-08-2012, 07:12 AM   #41
dusanmsk
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I've created a workaround python script to simulate "per-item automation". It is not so straightforward as it could be in any other DAW with this feature, but I hope it will be usable for someone.

Script copies automation from selected item to all items with the same name in selected track.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqNlKOC1KkA
Download https://stash.reaper.fm/v/12934/msk-copy_envelope.zip
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:46 PM   #42
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This is cool. Except it would be even simpler if once you selected the knob or fader you wanted to automate, it would automatically show that automation lane for that option, instead of having to click and drag the hand (extra unnecessary step). This should also be the same for arrange view.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:03 PM   #43
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Huge +1

This is my #1 desire. It would save so much time and effort, and open up so many new possibilities!

The two big issues it would fix for me currently are:
  1. Moving automation together with items on different tracks. Currently I resort to dummy items that I group with items on other tracks, or complicated routing to get the automation and the items on the same track.

  2. Moving raw automation data to other parameters. Currently this can only be done with the tedious "focus source track, select points, copy points, focus destination track, position edit cursor, paste points" routine. With automation items you could just drag the item onto another parameter's track.

Not to mention muting, stretching, splitting, looping, grouping, copy-dragging, takes, scaling ...

And maybe they could be opened in the new Multi-MIDI editor for detailed editing right there with the corresponding MIDI!

Oh god, want ...
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:45 AM   #44
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Yes...

But year after year the same hope, and I have always to use MIDI items as a workaround.

I will finish to loose any hope for it
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:56 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
With automation items you could just drag the item onto another parameter's track.
I'm pretty obviously a fan of automation clips but I can't say I understand how the above would work , or I think the practical value in that case would be much more limited than people think.

The problem there (seems to me anyway) is value matching and translation and all that. Some values use %, others use a numerical scale, often the ranges and scales are very different between 2-3-4 different automation parameters. With that in mind I do think doing that kind of thing, pointing an automation clip from one parameter to another, might be somwhat limited in practice.

Does any workstation actually do that, allow moving or pointing a pure automation clip to any one of multiple parameters?

Some of it sounds nice in theory, but some of it also sounds a little bit pie in the sky, not very practical.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:03 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
The problem there (seems to me anyway) is value matching and translation and all that. Some values use %, others use a numerical scale, often the ranges and scales are very different between 2-3-4 different automation parameters. With that in mind I do think doing that kind of thing, pointing an automation clip from one parameter to another, might be somwhat limited in practice.

Does any workstation actually do that, allow moving or pointing a pure automation clip to any one of multiple parameters?

Some of it sounds nice in theory, but some of it also sounds a little bit pie in the sky, not very practical.
Good points there but I'd like this also if it be just for the possibility of fun and experimentation.
ie what happens if I throw that automation clip I originally created for say cutoff at another synth parameter, stretch, loop the clip, whatnot, stuff like this...
Sure we can sort of do it now already by copy/pasting automation but having automation clips would be quicker and more fun.

(I'm no programmer, but afaik internally VST automation parameters all use the same 0-1 range, so programming-wise this kind of thing shouldn't be a problem I guess)

Last edited by nofish; 03-21-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:01 PM   #47
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I'm no programmer, but afaik internally VST automation parameters all use the same 0-1 range, so programming-wise this kind of thing shouldn't be a problem I guess)
They don't if they indeed use VST automation, that is why some hosts have two modes of automation, standard and HQ (EXT had this in v1.4 many many years ago)

0-1 is a very non descript idea, they may well all support 0-1 (In fact they mainly do) but my point is that you then have to look at how many decimal places are supported
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:44 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I'm pretty obviously a fan of automation clips but I can't say I understand how the above would work , or I think the practical value in that case would be much more limited than people think.

The problem there (seems to me anyway) is value matching and translation and all that. Some values use %, others use a numerical scale, often the ranges and scales are very different between 2-3-4 different automation parameters. With that in mind I do think doing that kind of thing, pointing an automation clip from one parameter to another, might be somwhat limited in practice.
Well, the VST spec specifies parameters as 32-bit floats between 0 and 1 inclusive, and I'm pretty sure Reaper's internal automation is represented the same way (or so it seems, since you can copy envelope points back and forth between Reaper and VST envelopes without issue). Now, those numbers will almost certainly map to different values inside the plugin or inside the host, but the host-plugin interface is always 32-bit floats [0, 1]. So in that sense, all automation is generic and interchangeable.

It's a little misleading since the VST spec also seems to allow plugins to publish the internal, translated values for reference, which Reaper then displays, so it can look like each envelope has a unique range and scale.

Now, if you're referring to hitting one parameter's sweet spot with points taken from another parameter, that might require some editing. But you're guaranteed to be able finagle the points into the range you want via offsetting and scaling values.

Quote:
Does any workstation actually do that, allow moving or pointing a pure automation clip to any one of multiple parameters?
Reaper already allows this by copying and pasting points from one lane to another. Whether those points are housed in an item is irrelevant. Items will just make automation a lot easier to move than it already is.

Quote:
Some of it sounds nice in theory, but some of it also sounds a little bit pie in the sky, not very practical.
It's guaranteed to be practical, since people already do it all the time, just via copy/pasting. Currently it's a tedious operation, but it's still much easier than recreating the envelope in another lane. Envelopes are particularly already ranged correctly between multiple instances of the same plugin.

Edit: But moving automation items between lanes is just icing on the usefulness they already provide within the same lane. It's a side effect of the new model that happens to have huge workflow and creative potential in its own right.

Edit2: And it makes it easy to experiment with using envelope data on unrelated parameters. Imagine you have an automation item on a synth's filter cutoff. Now you copy-drag that item to the pan lane. Now you've easily created the illusion that the cutoff and pan are somehow related. I synchronize parameters like this all the time via tedious copy/pasting or manual recreation, but automation items will make it trivial.

Last edited by medicine tactic; 03-21-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:09 PM   #49
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Or here's a more normal scenario that anyone who automates Kontakt will eventually run into. Kontakt allows you to map internal controls (knobs, faders, etc.) to its 512 generic host-visible automation parameters. You drag the automation number onto the knob to assign it. Say you've got some parameters assigned, and you've created envelopes for them in Reaper. You then realize that those assignments (inside Kontakt) need to be rearranged to make room for another instrument, or to be more orderly or something. So you rearrange them. But now the automation points in Reaper are on the wrong lanes! You need to move the automation points to their parameters' new lanes. How do you do that? Copy and paste, using a blank lane as a spare for swapping. I've had to do this a couple times, and let me tell you: it's no fun. But it'd be trivial with automation items.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:04 AM   #50
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Only had a quick peruse of the animation in the OP
But i must say if clip based automation is built into media clips then it will be a massive fail and very much unReaper in the way it works
Automation items need to be a new type of item and not tied to a specific item or you lose about 90% of the very things that automation items are great for (looping/duplicating/cut/splice/move to other parameters/send to multiple parameters)

"Oh i have this 1 bar cutoff wobble, i will just loop it over the 32 bar section of this synth, hey this is nice i will save that 1 bar item to my drive, hmmmm i want the wobble to double its speed at bar 12, cool i alt+drag to speed it up, so on ad so forth"

DO NOT tie automation to media clips please please please, it will be even worse than it is now, give them their own clip (Audio item, MIDI item, Automation item)
I will add a video when back at home
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:01 AM   #51
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Hey Medicine,

Afaik, all DAWS allow you to copy and paste envelopes around, that's wasn"t actually the point. The question was...

Is there any daw currently that allows pointing the automation from a pure automation clip to any other parameters, and if so, which one. If not, why not? Or is this just something nobody ever thought of before?

I'm not against the idea at all.

Thanks.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:12 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Only had a quick peruse of the animation in the OP
But i must say if clip based automation is built into media clips then it will be a massive fail and very much unReaper in the way it works
Automation items need to be a new type of item and not tied to a specific item or you lose about 90% of the very things that automation items are great for (looping/duplicating/cut/splice/move to other parameters/send to multiple parameters)

"Oh i have this 1 bar cutoff wobble, i will just loop it over the 32 bar section of this synth, hey this is nice i will save that 1 bar item to my drive, hmmmm i want the wobble to double its speed at bar 12, cool i alt+drag to speed it up, so on ad so forth"

DO NOT tie automation to media clips please please please, it will be even worse than it is now, give them their own clip (Audio item, MIDI item, Automation item)
I will add a video when back at home
Yup, you're exactly right. The proposal is for a new item type -- the automation item -- which would live in automation lanes, and would implement all the arrangement operations you'd expect (moving, copy/paste, copy-dragging, splitting, gluing, stretching, looping, grouping, etc.).
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:32 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Hey Medicine,

Afaik, all DAWS allow you to copy and paste envelopes around, that's wasn"t actually the point. The question was...

Is there any daw currently that allows pointing the automation from a pure automation clip to any other parameters, and if so, which one. If not, why not? Or is this just something nobody ever thought of before?

I'm not against the idea at all.

Thanks.
Ok, I see.

FL Studio is the only DAW I'm aware of that has automation items, and it does not allow them to be reassigned to other parameters, so it seems like the ability to move automation items between parameter lanes would be unique in the DAW world.

I don't think it's so much that no one's thought of it, as that there's really only one DAW that has automation items in the first place.

I'm not sure, but I imagine there might be DAWs that allow you to drag selections of automation points between lanes, which would be analogous. And there's copy/pasting too, which we've talked about.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:53 PM   #54
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I'm not sure if I am on the same page here, but I recall from messing around with Reason, you had automation items you could place just about anywhere, was great fun...
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:49 PM   #55
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I'm not sure if I am on the same page here, but I recall from messing around with Reason, you had automation items you could place just about anywhere, was great fun...
Nice. Yeah, I think you're right.

---

Also, it seems Logic has both track automation and automation items ("region based automation" in its terminology), and it has specific functionality to move automation data between parameters (in the automation menu of its TCP).
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:04 PM   #56
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Ok, I see.

FL Studio is the only DAW I'm aware of that has automation items, and it does not allow them to be reassigned to other parameters, so it seems like the ability to move automation items between parameter lanes would be unique in the DAW world.

I don't think it's so much that no one's thought of it, as that there's really only one DAW that has automation items in the first place.

I'm not sure, but I imagine there might be DAWs that allow you to drag selections of automation points between lanes, which would be analogous. And there's copy/pasting too, which we've talked about.

XT 1.4 allows automation items to jump between different parameters
There are way more hosts that have automation items, but i forget offhand
(I did make a list here in the forum once upon a time, but that was way way back when automation items felt like they may actually happen hahaha)
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:19 AM   #57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y0Ro2M1Sh4

Yummy. That's the sort of thing I want to be able to do, would be fucking AWESOME!

That is one thing I loved about reason - The automation. From an electronic music production viewpoint, obviously...
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:13 AM   #58
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I'm all up for this!
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:45 AM   #59
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Great find, copacetic! That's exactly it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:52 AM   #60
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That's pretty nice indeed.

Obviously (and again I'm not against this at all, on the contrary, looks great tbh) that's a closed system so it may be (I say "may" intentionally for multiple reasons) easier to do it when you control all the plugins.

Would be nice indeed. Schwa or one of the code wizards would have to chime in on it's viability in Reaper I guess.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:09 AM   #61
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Automation clip editing like in FL/Reason would be bloody awesome. It's SO SIMPLE.


Currently dealing with envelopes is a huge pain.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:55 AM   #62
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+1000000

and possibility to select/delete multiple automation tracks, reorder, doubleclick to rename parameter alias, and quantized freehand drawing, please!!!1
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:31 AM   #63
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bump and to illiterate

If on top of an item's normal 4 envelopes (pitch, vol, pan and mute) you had a drop down to choose any of the automation for the track based effects this would give us clip automation but what is also cool is that if we can do this for empty items too we would have even more control, especially for empty folder tracks.


I'm still hoping for not only this but for item based fx to also be able to be automated. (like sonar) as this would be a sound designer's wet dream!
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:25 AM   #64
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Honestly, I must say that I never used this script because it is still too complicated to handle repeatable automation inside Reaper with it. I am waiting for automation clips for 2 years and they aren't still implemented. I am loosing a hope ...

MEGABUMP !!!
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:17 AM   #65
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Anyone?
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:28 PM   #66
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This is so necessary. How long must we wait?
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:52 PM   #67
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How long must we wait?
Until it's done.
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:04 PM   #68
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Until it's done.
Does that mean work is being done to implement it? I haven't read any acknowledgement by the devs on whether this feature is coming or whether it has any priority.

I'd be more patient with something esoteric, but this is a really popular feature that's been requested since the beginning of time. Every release cycle it's ignored. I'd be ecstatic just to know it's in the works. But it's hard to have confidence in Reaper as a dependable tool if such a crucial component is neglected year after year.
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Old 08-19-2013, 06:05 PM   #69
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I'm still waiting for the FR in my signature.

I don't think it's esoteric, and the wait time is now years rather than months.

Sigh...
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:18 PM   #70
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Just curious I haven't ventured over to the FR section yet...
How does it work with what features get handled first?
Not that I'm being pushy it's the developers choice anyways...
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:41 PM   #71
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I'm still waiting for the FR in my signature.

I don't think it's esoteric, and the wait time is now years rather than months.

Sigh...
That would also be really useful, I voted it up.

As for the feature selection process, I assume it's completely arbitrary. It baffles me though because there are some features that wouldn't be too much work to implement at all and would be quite useful, but they go ignored.

For instance, there's already clip volume, pan, etc automation per item. The lanes are there. All the features of an item wrapper are already there. Midi items can already send cc data, it's just a matter of having something similar that works with bezier curves instead and sits in an automation lane. It really shouldn't take more than an afternoon to implement.

It's just a matter of extending the item class, overriding the time stretching functions, reusing a lot of the existing envelope code with modification to have nodes reference relative clip timing instead of the absolute project time. Override the item volume handle dragging along the top to scale the envelope like you can already do in the automation lanes (maybe add a handle on the bottom to scale upwards if you wanted to get fancy?) Duplicate, cut, paste, ghost copy, lock, etc. should all be modular enough to work out of the box with minimal tweaking. All the actual routing of the midi data would still be handled by the lane, the item would just send the data to be relayed. Am I forgetting any features? It's really just writing a wrapper to go around an existing feature. And that wrapper would extend the item class so a lot of the functions are already defined.

For something that's been sorely missed for so long, I'm surprised the devs haven't invested the time to code at least a simple implementation. It's not a huge amount of coding but it'd provide a huge benefit to anyone working with automation.
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:48 PM   #72
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Ok this may be wishful thinking in today's day and age but wouldn't a voting or poll process make sense...
This way the devs could keep happy (keep quiet) a majority of the users at any given time...
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Old 08-19-2013, 08:00 PM   #73
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Oh there is voting. This is an elevated feature request. But that doesn't guarantee the devs are gonna implement it. It just shows them what users want most. But yes, it would be smart to keep development as democratized as possible without ruining the ethos or flow of the program. That way the users are happy and the program stays cohesive. This isn't even some sort of radical change, it's just a feature that seems like it should already be there but just.... isn't.
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:42 AM   #74
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This isn't even some sort of radical change, it's just a feature that seems like it should already be there but just.... isn't.
You might think that it isn't a radical change, but the way Reaper's envelopes work currently, it IS a radical and definitely not an easy change. That's why it's not happening as fast as people want it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:28 AM   #75
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That would also be really useful, I voted it up.
Thanks Kyran
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:11 PM   #76
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You might think that it isn't a radical change, but the way Reaper's envelopes work currently, it IS a radical and definitely not an easy change. That's why it's not happening as fast as people want it.
What's so radical about it? Write a wrapper class, register some mouse context listeners. That's about it. I'm not saying it needs to be done in the next 20 minutes, but I'm sure it could be done quite easily at some point in the near future. This isn't something that takes years to develop, we're talking a few hours for a really well done implementation. So it's not like it's taking them forever, it's just being ignored.

Obviously they have to pick and choose what they spend their development time on, but such a long wait for such a popular and relatively simple feature seems disproportionate. The small investment of time would pay off with a lot of happy users.
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #77
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You seem so sure that it's so easy to do it, but without any insight in Reaper's source code, I would be extremely careful with such statements.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:40 PM   #78
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Well assuming the code was written modularly and follows OO design principles, all my assumptions would be correct.

It's not inventing any new complex thing. It's just a wrapper that sits in an automation lane. Automation already exists. Items already exist. Clips that send midi data to plugins already exist. Bezier curve editing already exists. Copy, paste, duplicate, ghost copy, scaling, trimming, fading behaviours all already exist.

It's really just a matter of making a subclass adapter, overriding some functions, registering listeners with the UI manager.

Even if the Reaper code base was horribly organized with duplicated code everywhere, convoluted class hierarchy, tight coupling between classes, etc. It still wouldn't take years to implement. It might take an extra day or two. But not years. It's not the case of them just taking a long time to code it, because it's just not that complex of a feature. It comes down to them not prioritizing it as a feature to implement. There's a discontinuity between their priorities and the priorities of users, this is one of the top longstanding elevated FRs. Hopefully we'll eventually cross the threshold and get their attention enough for it to be implemented.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:19 AM   #79
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It comes down to them not prioritizing it as a feature to implement. There's a discontinuity between their priorities and the priorities of users...
I wholeheartedly agree. And glad to hear that other people are being vocal about their disappointment with this. My experience has been the same.

What's the point in giving the illusion of a democratic feature request system?

Months of waiting in hope for any response from the developers - even for just a word or two explaining their views - bring the slow realisation that those words are never going to come.

One just turns bitter towards the software that was once loved.

It's like waiting for Dad to come home after your parents break up.

He's never coming back.

And your left with a mixture of anger and 'well... he's still my Dad'.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:26 AM   #80
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Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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And how are most other DAW developers dealing with this? There's red tape over everything and you never get to find out what's going to happen in the next big version, in most cases. Not to mention you always have to shell out for next big version number. So, be glad we at least have some impact on the developers here. We might not ALWAYS have impact on them, because everybody has their own set of FRs they want to see implemented, and you can't just please everyone.

I am sure automation items will happen. When? Only Cockos knows.
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