Old 02-05-2021, 09:34 AM   #1
maxdembo
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Default Sonarworks Negatives

I've recently started using it on headphones, and its kinda mindblowing how something essentially so simple is a complete game changer for me. I cant see myself not using it ever again. Its a permanent place in my studio/living room, after just a few days of use.

Genuinely blown away by how useful it is. So many great reviews and great feedback for it too. I should say this is only based on headphone use. I havent used it with calibrating my speakers, and I havent got properly calibrated headphones. Im just using their averaged response of the AKG 702's.

But I'm intrigued...

Has anyone here used and then got rid of it?

If so, why? I would love to hear context of how you tried it, for how long, and why you decided against it. What kit were you using it with? What kind of music? More detail gives more understanding of why you decided against it.

One slightly more niche question...

Anyone bought and tried the Monoprice 20 euro headphones that Sonarworks support in their profiles? Asking for a friend

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Old 02-05-2021, 05:11 PM   #2
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Anyone bought and tried the Monoprice 20 euro headphones that Sonarworks support in their profiles? Asking for a friend
dunno if it's the ones you refer to, but i bought some 20 quid monoprice h/phones after reading several positive articles etc. about 10 years ago.
they're alright - i hardly ever listen on headphones though, & i've never used sonarworks.
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Old 02-05-2021, 10:23 PM   #3
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Genuinely blown away by how useful it is. So many great reviews and great feedback for it too. I should say this is only based on headphone use. I havent used it with calibrating my speakers, and I havent got properly calibrated headphones. Im just using their averaged response of the AKG 702's.

But I'm intrigued...

Has anyone here used and then got rid of it?

If so, why? I would love to hear context of how you tried it, for how long, and why you decided against it. What kit were you using it with? What kind of music? More detail gives more understanding of why you decided against it.
If someone is already used to their speakers, already knows how to mix pretty well, already has good ears, and their mixes are already translating to other environments, and they generally know what the hell theyre doing, those guys tend to not like Sonarworks room correction very much. But you make those same guys mix on headphones, especially headphones that they're not super-accustomed to, suddenly it becomes very useful.
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Old 02-06-2021, 09:46 AM   #4
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It didn't take the first time around, for me (though neither did Reaper). I later saw advice to have the wet-dry mix lower than 100% -- I think 50-75, though I found 80% to work for me -- and to change the filter to Mixed. This time it sounded much less radically different. I plan to try stepping up to 100% at some point.
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Old 02-09-2021, 11:55 AM   #5
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Thanks folks!
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:41 PM   #6
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I don't like it on phones cause I suck on phones..
But I've mixed and mastered for years using Sonarworks in my studio and can't work without it in that room.. love it. Things Translate so much better.
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Old 03-10-2021, 11:58 PM   #7
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It's been a game changer for me for my main monitors. I know them well without it and have achieved decent mixes without it too but once I started using it, I noticed things I wasn't expecting to notice such as improved imaging and spacial definition.
I use it on my Ambisonic cube array and it improves Ambisonic spacial cues significantly too, mainly due to the fact that all eight speakers have the same response at the mix position.

For headphones, I stopped using it with my Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro cans. I use Goodhertz Canopener and prefer that alone for headphones.
I do use it with my AKG K240M cans though. They sound a LOT more accurate with it.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:59 AM   #8
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note: moderately treated but small room

when i had my dynaudios, sonarworks made it very slightly easier to mix
i moved up to amphions, and without sonarworks it sounded better than my old setup. with sonarworks it sounds better again.
i don't think i could work without it.
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Old 03-11-2021, 09:32 AM   #9
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Thanks for your contributions, folks.

Personally, Im using Sonarworks for my AKG k702's headphones and I dont think I'd want to use them without it. They are so much more accurate with Sonarworks and I dont have a shock every time I go back to listening on monitors.
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Old 03-11-2021, 10:06 AM   #10
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I'd never get rid of Sonarworks - the best money ever spent on a plugin!
It was quite a hassle to get my monitors corrected properly due to a subwoofer in the chain (which I muted in the end and measured without) and due to the wrong angle my speakers were set up. We're talking about 3° approx., but the difference was staggering. (Finally, after around 1 year mixing with with an incorrect measurement).

Same for headphones. Also AKG here (K500 and K612), wouldn't want to use them without correction.

btw Never at full 100% mix, neither speakers nor cans.
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:21 PM   #11
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Never at full 100% mix, neither speakers nor cans.
Thats the second time this kinda usage has been mentioned, and I must admit, I dont quite get it.

I shall do some reading, thanks!
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Old 03-11-2021, 02:31 PM   #12
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Running SW-4 for Monitors ... using 30% correction.
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Old 03-11-2021, 04:26 PM   #13
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I run at 100% on headphones (hd600), but 60% on speakers. the amphions have a big treble dip at 18k and sonarworks overcorrects it at 100%. I've filed a feature request to run 100% at low end but 0% (or no boost) on treble, hasn't budged yet though.
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Old 03-11-2021, 05:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
If someone is already used to their speakers, already knows how to mix pretty well, already has good ears, and their mixes are already translating to other environments, and they generally know what the hell theyre doing, those guys tend to not like Sonarworks room correction very much. But you make those same guys mix on headphones, especially headphones that they're not super-accustomed to, suddenly it becomes very useful.
I've got a professional LEDE control room I built in 1979 with two 27 band graphic EQs on biamped monitors.

When I got finished setting them up with Sonarworks and A/B tested them I couldn't believe it. They were very close, although Sonarworks seemed to be lightly better.

I love Sonarworks, especially since I can take my old 27 band graphic EQs out of the system.

I don't think I've met or known of a professional audio engineer that did not prefer well built sound treated rooms to work in.

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Old 03-11-2021, 06:25 PM   #15
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lovely setup in that photo!

anyway, in my pretty garbage 3mx4m room, this is how flat i'm able to measure everything with sonarworks on. note some of the low freq damage there is just subharmonic rumble from the major road system near my house.

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File Type: png 20210116 calibrated.png (57.2 KB, 1070 views)
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:20 AM   #16
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Default So far a terrible experience [SOLVED]

See my later post with solution.

I purchased the retail box mic/combo for headphones and speakers - I've been unable to activate for three days now. Zero responses from support tickets, I'm 300 USD in to this with only a 21 day trial that is functional. The user area for managing license is a bit abysmal and the license was accepted and is there but the activate button is missing for the license entry - it is available for a trial only.

On top of that, the sonarworks microphone is defective as it has a constant 60hz mains hum. The hum only exists with this mic, no other mics that I have exhibit this issue (my ECM8000 does not have this issue). So I've spent three days both trying to figure out how to get it activated and deal with this microphone - support is silent, I have defective mic and nowhere to go thus far.

And if it helps, I did some testing (with the trial) with both their mic with their per mic calibration - it and the ECM8000 provide VASTLY different results (unrelated to the 60hz hum issue) so either you need their mic... making the ECM8000 (with cal file) is a crapshoot or this entire process can't be trusted.

If I don't hear from support today, I'm returning this entire product and calling it a POS and just going back to relying on my ears. Thanks!
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:30 AM   #17
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Yeah if I had a wish I guess.. of course would cost a lot more.. But would be nice if there was an option for Sonarworks to be installed in their own outboard D/A converter something at least as good as Dangerous DA.. So the correction could run outboard.. not causing any latency and wouldn't need system all.. because everything would pass thru it.
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:03 AM   #18
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And if it helps, I did some testing (with the trial) with both their mic with their per mic calibration - it and the ECM8000 provide VASTLY different results (unrelated to the 60hz hum issue) so either you need their mic... making the ECM8000 (with cal file) is a crapshoot or this entire process can't be trusted.
From my experience I'd blame it on the Behringer mic. When I first tested the software in trial mode, I borrowed a Beyerdynamic mic (with cal file) and took some measurements. Later I bought the whole package including microphone, and I couldn't say that the expected results were different.

What I can say though: you definitely need to (very) critically evaluate your first (and likely also your second and third) measurement and the resulting calibration. If your speakers aren't set up *as good as possible* you'll get slightly wrong results - in my case Sonarworks boosted the top end too high and too heavily. Something you might not realize at first, as the rest of the spectrum is properly corrected. Once you meticulously re-position your speakers at the right distance and angle, you'll immediately notice when it's right.*

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and just going back to relying on my ears
All I can say is: don't! I mixed for about one year with monitors corrected "by ear", for which I listened to hours and hours of music I thought I'd know well. I couldn't believe how wrong the assumption of a "flat" sound could be.

* when every 0.2dB move on an EQ is clearly perceivable AND there's never a second guess anymore, be it EQ, saturation or compression
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:04 AM   #19
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So the correction could run outboard.. not causing any latency and wouldn't need system all.. because everything would pass thru it.
Unfortunately there is no *good* existing room correction without latency. Trinnov is even worse, by far.
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Old 03-15-2021, 11:01 AM   #20
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What I can say though: you definitely need to (very) critically evaluate your first (and likely also your second and third) measurement and the resulting calibration. If your speakers aren't set up *as good as possible* you'll get slightly wrong results - in my case Sonarworks boosted the top end too high and too heavily. Something you might not realize at first, as the rest of the spectrum is properly corrected. Once you meticulously re-position your speakers at the right distance and angle, you'll immediately notice when it's right.*
I did three SW mic calibrations, they were roughly the same. I think the SW calibration I have is pretty close (it's not my first calibration rodeo) and my room wasn't that far off to begin with - but I still have the defective mic to deal with, that 60hz hum didn't seem to screw up the measurement but it is surely there and surely the mic's fault and I still have an inactivated product that I paid a lot for that is still in trial mode.

Note: I also did two sets of monitors, DynAudio LYD48s and Adam AX7.

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* when every 0.2dB move on an EQ is clearly perceivable AND there's never a second guess anymore, be it EQ, saturation or compression
I'm with you except 0.2dB is extremely subtle and most normal ears can't even detect it under perfect conditions so 'clearly perceptible' I'm having a tad of a hard time swallowing. I get what you are saying though.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:01 PM   #21
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Well that's a PITA.

I'm sure you swapped Mic Cables ...

2. I recently had to upgrade to SW-4, AND I needed a new, Calibrated Mic [bought from Sweetwater].

It's not until you look at the Cal file adjustments that you realize how important they are. The 'tools' must be tuned.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:33 PM   #22
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Well that's a PITA.

I'm sure you swapped Mic Cables ...

2. I recently had to upgrade to SW-4, AND I needed a new, Calibrated Mic [bought from Sweetwater].

It's not until you look at the Cal file adjustments that you realize how important they are. The 'tools' must be tuned.
PITA it is.

I had ordered an additional mic from Sweetwater earlier today, and will grab the Cal file from SonarWorks when it arrives tomorrow - for $69, it's not that much to swallow and I'll deal with getting the other mic returned or fixed later - I was hoping there was a floating ground but meter shows the shell is grounded to the XLR ground pin as expected - which means I'll have to disassemble to go further.

Yea, I have roughly 40 mics and a good chunk of those are condensers (including 2 ECM8000) and I tried different cables, different preamps (due to phantom power), the works - it is the only mic in my collection with this issue. It's definitely the mic, the hum reduces some when touching but only about 30% less, and here's how REW sees it with the 60HZ hum and it's harmonics:



That said, after dorking with all of this over the weekend. I do trust the calibration I was able to get compared to the ECM800 - I have two ECMs and no reason to think anything is wrong with them, which makes me think anyone using an ECM8000 for any kind of calibration must be running a high risk of being way off - at least mine show that as being a distinct possibility.
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Old 03-15-2021, 07:38 PM   #23
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yikes @ that graph

it certainly does seem like something is very wrong there
good luck!
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Old 03-16-2021, 05:39 AM   #24
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I did three SW mic calibrations, they were roughly the same. I think the SW calibration I have is pretty close (it's not my first calibration rodeo) and my room wasn't that far off to begin with - but I still have the defective mic to deal with, that 60hz hum didn't seem to screw up the measurement but it is surely there and surely the mic's fault and I still have an inactivated product that I paid a lot for that is still in trial mode.
What I forgot to write: I hope you get this sorted out. My experience with SW customer service has been good so far - I guess they're just overwhelmed right now with tons of users complaining about the update price and the bugs/feature chaos.
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Old 03-16-2021, 06:13 AM   #25
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What I forgot to write: I hope you get this sorted out. My experience with SW customer service has been good so far - I guess they're just overwhelmed right now with tons of users complaining about the update price and the bugs/feature chaos.
Thanks.... All I need is for them to make my license active before my 21 days is up. I have a feeling this is a one man show, I'm not complaining about that but it isn't helping things.
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Old 03-17-2021, 08:05 AM   #26
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Still not sure about SW
the sound is kinda weird to me in the highs.

currently I just turned it off.
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Old 03-17-2021, 08:16 AM   #27
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It's working here fine now, it added some highs but I always thought my high-end was lacking in both sets of monitors, most likely due to all the broadband treatment in a small room. So my current calibration mostly made some things I had always doubted disappear, and there were some other listening tests that made me feel like it was much better - like suddenly hearing subtle details in my own mixes I wasn't hearing before calibrating - that actually sort of caught me by surprise aka I can hear more discrete "stuff" in the mix than I could before.

STILL no reply from support so I have 18 days left of even being able to use the product.

And the 2nd mic showed up this morning, it's fine and final confirmation the other mic was defective. Not sure what I'm going to do about that when their support is so overloaded they can't even contact me in a reasonable time much less handle a hardware defect.
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Old 03-17-2021, 10:21 AM   #28
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STILL no reply from support so I have 18 days left of even being able to use the product.
You checked the spam filter I guess.
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Old 03-17-2021, 10:22 AM   #29
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the sound is kinda weird to me in the highs.
Speaker or headphone version?
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Old 03-17-2021, 11:11 AM   #30
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You checked the spam filter I guess.
Yep, email is my specialty and some other account related changes I made while trying to get things to work with SW showed up in my inbox as expected.
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Old 03-17-2021, 05:44 PM   #31
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Default Issue Solved

So, as I was perusing around the SonarWorks website looking for clues I kept noticing some things looked different than what I have. I start wondering if the latest version is part of the problem. I fiddle my way until I find the official download page and I find:

SoundID Reference - For Speakers and Headphones

AND

Reference 4 - For Speakers and Headphones

The second one is the one I purchased, the first one is the one I have installed. They are not the same, apparently the first one is more whiz bang and requires an upgrade from Reference 4. I'm already sold on, installed and fully configured with SoundID Reference so I hesitate to download version 4, uninstall, reinstall possibly recalibrate and also lose some features I'm now used to.

So I click the "Upgrade from Reference 4 to SoundID Reference" for $89 USD. I get the upgrade key, I enter, it activates. I'm good, yay. Not sure how I missed this (albeit would be nice if it just told me when I tried to authorize the wrong product instead of just accepting and not authorizing) and the site navigation isn't the best either - now be aware, support doesn't know this and I've been trying to get a response from them since Saturday so that still kind of sucks.

Either way, here it is fully functional:

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Old 03-17-2021, 05:54 PM   #32
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whoa! this is all new. looks like it's only been released in the last month?
upgrading now, this explains why sonarworks upgrades have been a bit quiet recently.
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Old 03-17-2021, 06:15 PM   #33
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....this is basically sonarworks 5, down to the version number - tons of improvements here from what i can tell.
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Old 03-17-2021, 06:28 PM   #34
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....this is basically sonarworks 5, down to the version number - tons of improvements here from what i can tell.
Yea, I noticed the V5 in the interface, its one of the "doesn't look right" things that took me to the website. So yea, I don't know what the V4 features were like but so far V5 is pretty dang sweet.
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Old 03-17-2021, 06:36 PM   #35
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Yeah, I just upgraded today as well. I think the biggest change is the ability to custom your EQ curves if you want to (I don't think I will, but it's nice to have the option).
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Old 03-17-2021, 06:40 PM   #36
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Yeah, I just upgraded today as well. I think the biggest change is the ability to custom your EQ curves if you want to (I don't think I will, but it's nice to have the option).
oh absolutely, i have a v4 feature request going back years.

my speakers have a weird tight dip around 18khz. sonarworks really tried to correct it, but i can't hear up that high. so it was boosting super treble and taxing my tweeters for no reason. i can just limit correction to 10khz now or whatever and it's all good.
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Old 03-17-2021, 06:46 PM   #37
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I think the biggest change is the ability to custom your EQ curves
That's what I did that in my screenshot. What I found useful is since I have it set up system wide, I can use it's virtual driver to run the SW calibrated result out the monitors and back into REW, then use the custom curve to do a couple final tweaks based on REWs read of the SW result. That's the 3 small adjustments in mine above, a 40Hz dip, a 700Hz small boost and another @ 2.5k.

They are like presets so it's easy to have a custom curve serve as tweaks to the main curve as a work in progress, without disturbing the main curve, so it's a single click to switch between the two.
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Old 03-17-2021, 07:42 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
That's what I did that in my screenshot. What I found useful is since I have it set up system wide, I can use it's virtual driver to run the SW calibrated result out the monitors and back into REW, then use the custom curve to do a couple final tweaks based on REWs read of the SW result. That's the 3 small adjustments in mine above, a 40Hz dip, a 700Hz small boost and another @ 2.5k.

They are like presets so it's easy to have a custom curve serve as tweaks to the main curve as a work in progress, without disturbing the main curve, so it's a single click to switch between the two.
that's .... a very clever idea. i should try that. how do those changes interact with the listening sweet-spot though?
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Old 03-17-2021, 07:53 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
that's .... a very clever idea. i should try that. how do those changes interact with the listening sweet-spot though?
I don't know yet tbh, so far I seem to keep coming back to the tweaked curve but not sure if that is a hyped reaction of mine. It's going to take some time to do the different tests and comparisons and possible moving things around in the room to see where I land.
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Old 03-17-2021, 11:03 PM   #40
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Well, tonite I just shot out my Room ... just had purchased v4 about 2 months ago.

For some reason, the shoot took a lot long than expected. Waiting on the software to lock to the Mic position before it can do its sweep. Ended up pulling out a mic stand as my arms were getting tired. Still didn't help much.

Finally got all the spots done ... it made the new Cal file.

Loaded it up in the DAW ... with the correction plug. Pulled in a collection of Reference Songs.

Still listening through them, but I must say ... I can take no more than 8-10% on the correction level [Dry/Wet].

Even at that amount, the 'correction' does sound good [better than without]. Pushing any harder than that starts to sound confined and lifeless.

Back to Reference listening ...
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