Old 09-20-2021, 01:51 AM   #1
Naji
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Default YT vs Plugin Devs

There are many different plugin emulations
of hardware gear. Many of us have and will never see the real thing. Imo something ok if you can use it in your production no matter if it comes close to the real thing or not. Also anolog gear is said to sound differestly anyway, so two 1176 compressors could sound differently.
Nevertheless plugin devs find their ways two promote their plugins in a more and more strange way to make us think we buy something valuable and special.
Thanks to some youtubers like Dan Worrall, Paul Third etc some marketing tricks of devs are revealed and damage their reputation. I think they deserve it and must admit that youtubers influence my buying behavior, of course I also demo a plugin, but doubts are quite often confirmed by youtubers. What about you?
I am going to add some examples.
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:54 AM   #2
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1. Plugin Alliance
Truly speaking I never really liked their plugins, but since Dan Worall released his video about PA Amek console, I will completely stay away from any PA product.
Dirk from PA and brainworx claimed several times that all their plugins have some strange cpu friendly automatic oversampling. Do they, really. Pretty strange that Dan Worrall showed tgat Amek console has no oversampling and now I kniw why PA plugins always added some mud to my music. When I remember some replies of Dirk full of arrogance and not customer friendly at all (for example automatic gain compensation), then I know about PA's mind-set. Dan has also revealed that PA's super hyped TMT feature is only hidden eq settings, that's all and the whole feature does not make sense in a production anyway to make eq settings with eq if a channel strip that then will be changed by TMT!?
Their list prices can not be taken seriously, too. 449 for Amek console!!!!
And one year later for 35. First they hype a new product and then that product is worth almost nothing after a short time and some new product is hyped.

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Old 09-20-2021, 02:08 AM   #3
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2. Harrison
Harrison Channel plugin is the most digital sounding analog plugin. There are some videos on yt (Paul Third etc) and Harrison has a pretty damaged reputation now.
Harrison sells or promotes their plugins as the most analog sounding ones!
There must be a reason that you did not and won't find Harrison consoles a lot in profesdional studios. Bruces Swedien, who else?!

3. Acustica Audio
Fancy manuals and guis, but what else?
After so many years AA has not managed to improve their well known issues lime huge cpu consumption, latency, bad compression behavior and some more bugs. Instead of fixung, they release and release and release new products.
I demoed all their products and sometimes the only big difference were the guis.
So it made me think that they might have 2 or 3 basic convolution files and maybe change just a little each time, maybe some different hidden eq settings or q factor!?
Who knowd if AA has ever seen all of the hardware gear they claim to have emulated?! It's pure speculation, but it's what I think. Compression is bad, the pres have no mojo at all, what are they good for?, if you drive them hard you get some nice digital artefacts...

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Old 09-20-2021, 02:28 AM   #4
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... Cpu and latency hogs.

4. Some AI plugins
I suppose some have just a kind of hidden presets like sonible smart eq.

5. Blackbird BB N105 channel strip

Can you make a release worse than KIT plugin did? A completely broken plugin and still no improvement after months!

The release was hyped and supported by Warren Huart produce like a pro with two long videos together with Blackbird studios.Warren highly recommended the plugin and lost his face and I do not believe he did not get no money for two long videos! He does not even have tge decency to apologize! A decent guy would apologize, wouldn't he?

There is a video by Paul Third about this broken plugin. But Paul Third also makes conclusion I do not like. He can't say some AA is better than some other plugins and hiding the fact that AA has also big disantvantages like no resizable gui, no automatic gain compensation, high on cpu, latency etc that's not good and fair.

Conclusion: it's getting harder for devs to fool customers!

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Old 09-20-2021, 03:05 AM   #5
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I don't think your conclusion is correct, sadly...
Most of these "traps" are meant for beginners that think these are secrets that no one knows about them and that these will actually improve their production quality without much experience needed... and I don't blame them, it's such a tempting offer, and they market for such purpose.

It's not "harder" to fool you, you've just gotten better and found out about it. Not all beginners will find dan worall or paul third or any other person "debunking" myths about plugins. Case and point, the success of Unison Midi (or as I say, shitty) chord pack.

Their target customer is not you/me/anyone who knows any better. Their target is new hopeful people in the industry who have never heard of waves, and thinks that the limited time offers are actually limited time, and so they impulse buy it.


Honestly the only plugin company I "like" is izotope since they don't make stuff that has already been made millions of times, and actually innovate with their plugins, but I hate their change to subscription model... Maybe Melda but I don't use their stuff that much, then the people who created shaperbox (I forgot their name) are also awesome. But yeah... the companies you mentioned are definitely more predatory
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Old 09-20-2021, 03:17 AM   #6
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Don't lump all plugin alliance developers in one basket. Brainworx are just one of the companies that sell plugins through the site. For example, the Lindell Neve and API channel strips/busses include several oversampling options and were very well received.

It should be said though, that a lack of oversampling will not make your mixes dark, that is on you. Don't buy into the oversampling hype, nothing comes for free and it has its own drawbacks. Sometimes it improves things, sometimes it makes things worse, most times it makes no discernible difference.

Also, I believe Dan Worrall said the PA Neve channel strip had cramping on the high mid EQ but not the high shelf. Which would make sense in light of Dirk's comment.

Don't get too obsessed with the debunkers. Demo plugins and decide if they get you to where you want to be quicker, and if that is worth the price.

Plugin Alliance do have a whacky pricing strategy though, that's for sure.
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Old 09-20-2021, 03:27 AM   #7
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Don't lump all plugin alliance developers in one basket. Brainworx are just one of the companies that sell plugins through the site. For example, the Lindell Neve and API channel strips/busses include several oversampling options and were very well received.

It should be said though, that a lack of oversampling will not make your mixes dark, that is on you. Don't buy into the oversampling hype, nothing comes for free and it has its own drawbacks. Sometimes it improves things, sometimes it makes things worse, most times it makes no discernible difference.

Also, I believe Dan Worrall said the PA Neve channel strip had cramping on the high mid EQ but not the high shelf. Which would make sense in light of Dirk's comment.

Don't get too obsessed with the debunkers. Demo plugins and decide if they get you to where you want to be quicker, and if that is worth the price.

Plugin Alliance do have a whacky pricing strategy though, that's for sure.

Thanks. Yes, I know PA are several devs, I had a one year subscription and today I do not miss even one plugin, just because I found way better plugins for me.
I also do not think they did a good job
with the API emulation. Most of my favourite music was recorded or mixed on API consoles. API deserves way better emulations imo.
Why haven't you referred to PA's hyped and patented TMT, though ?!
It's just hidden eq settings! No mojo!

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Old 09-20-2021, 03:45 AM   #8
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Thanks. Yes, I know PA are several devs, I had a one year subscription and today I do not miss even one plugin, just because I found way better plugins for me.
Why haven't you referred to PA's hyped and patented TMT, though ?!
It's just hidden eq settings! No mojo!
It's debatable if TMT has any value other than subtle stereo widening, but as it also affects the dynamics sections of their plugins I don't see how it can only be "hidden EQ settings".

To be clear though, TMT is not a selling point for me at all, I can take it or leave it.
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Old 09-20-2021, 03:51 AM   #9
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Thanks. Yes, I know PA are several devs, I had a one year subscription and today I do not miss even one plugin, just because I found way better plugins for me.
I also do not think they did a good job
with the API emulation. Most of my favourite music was recorded or mixed on API consoles. API deserves way better emulations imo.
Why haven't you referred to PA's hyped and patented TMT, though ?!
It's just hidden eq settings! No mojo!
I love both the Lindell console emulations, I think they're great.

If you think that using plugin emulations will make your recordings sound like your favourite albums, you're buying into the hype. We could be sitting at the same console our favourite album was recorded or mixed on and still not be able to get that sound. The gear is the least of the equation.
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Old 09-20-2021, 04:37 AM   #10
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..
Don't get too obsessed with the debunkers. Demo plugins and decide if they get you to where you want to be quicker, and if that is worth the price.
+1 to this.
Dan Worrall really knows his stuff but too many unqualified self appointed experts, and even seasoned professionals eff up with alarming regularity, incorrectly debunking plugins, far too often missing features, or concentrating on the wrong minutiae (sometimes that even they clearly don't fully understand).

So yes, we need to check multiple sources and try for ourselves.

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I hate their change to subscription model..
May they all fail. No one needs that many plugins.

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Old 09-20-2021, 04:42 AM   #11
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Of course, creativity and good songs have to do less with gear. Nevertheless I would like to use some API emulations, but API are the ones, I just do not like using, several devs have API. But maybe it's just a stupid wish and API generally is not my think, I do not know real API anyway. I tend to use Neve emus somwtimes, the one by Softube has sone nice color and drive for my music. PA Lindell 80 was not bad (maybe even pa's best plugin!?) , but I like Softube way more, so I sold it and believe it or not I got 15 USD for that pretty old plugin,
the buyer had to pay transfer fee in addition! Btw the last pa plugin I could sell successfully.

About Izotope I am not sure. Pretty high on cpu and I watched friends using it. It seems to work great for edm and modern productions.
If you are more old school, well, I remember, we tried it on a simple blues and funk song and a rock song and Izotope also has plugins with some kind of AI and the results were terrible, whereas on some edm it worked great.
Plugin suites that want to offer some all in solutuin, well, it's hard to cover and please all music styles, I suppose.
Izotope is too modern for me, I also do not use Antares or Arouser/Distressor.

But my thread also wants to focus on influence of youtubers and I have to admit they do have, especially if I do not trust a company like Plugin Alliance or Acustica Audio, whenever I have some doubt l, whenever I wonder if promotion has some placebo effect, then I watch some yt and decide after trial period.

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Old 09-20-2021, 05:05 AM   #12
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+1 to this.
Dan Worrall really knows his stuff but too many unqualified self appointed experts, and even seasoned professionals eff up with alarming regularity, incorrectly debunking plugins, far too often missing features, or concentrating on the wrong minutiae (sometimes that even they clearly don't fully understand).

So yes, we need to check multiple sources and try for ourselves.


May they all fail. No one needs that many plugins.
Dan often gets misunderstood. When he talks about how a plugin doesn't fit with the way he works, some people hear that as the plugin not being fit for purpose.
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:42 AM   #13
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Dan often gets misunderstood. When he talks about how a plugin doesn't fit with the way he works, some people hear that as the plugin not being fit for purpose.
Yes, that is another problem. How different people interpret or process what they are being told. A problem certainly not unique to audio!
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:51 AM   #14
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People you should be wary of:
  1. Plugin marketing departments. The market is overloaded, its now almost comically easy to churn out bang average plugins. Stick a basic saturator on the front and call it 'analog'. Mislead enough YouTubers that they start inferring all kinds of nonsense and repeating it to each other.
  2. YouTubers. Not including legitimate authorities like Dan Worrall, but including others mentioned in this thread. There are a hundred that follow the pattern of 'chap sat in front of computer talking to camera about gear' channels. Whether they are sceptical or not, if they talk with great confidence about topics beyond their competence, you must, must be wary. A good indicator is any videos about the 'secrets of gain staging' or other such misunderstandings.
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:53 AM   #15
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Most of these "traps" are meant for beginners that think these are secrets that no one knows about them and that these will actually improve their production quality without much experience needed...
Just what I wanted to reply. More experienced engineers usually know 1) what to listen for and 2) what they "need" for workflow and/or sound.

Most of the time I just shrug when I get an advertising email about this or that plugin. Sometimes I demo it, and in 1% of those cases, I buy it. Best and recent example: AA White 3. I was sure I wouldn't like it enough to justify a purchase, as it is, in the end, "just another Pultec derivate". Turns out I almost bought it directly after I engaged just the preamp, it's that good (in terms of "it does something to the audio I can't achieve with other plugins as well as something I have heard in my head and wanted for a long time").

That said: If you clearly know and hear why plugin X is superior to your other plugins AND if you know for certain you will incorporate it in most of your future projects, go for it.
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Old 09-20-2021, 06:01 AM   #16
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Absolutely. The "you might not be able to hear this, but trust me you should be doing it" line is horribly toxic and totally backwards. Everyone, especially beginners, should be developing their listening skills and practising the craft of audio engineering based on what they hear, and that alone.
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Old 09-20-2021, 06:10 AM   #17
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Absolutely. The "you might not be able to hear this, but trust me you should be doing it" line is horribly toxic and totally backwards. Everyone, especially beginners, should be developing their listening skills and practising the craft of audio engineering based on what they hear, and that alone.
The audio industry has always thrived on The emperor's New clothes.
The video industry does this too, but to a lesser degree.

If you can't hear the huge difference with this FX you'd better apply it anyway because other people will find you out!
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Old 09-20-2021, 06:23 AM   #18
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"you might not be able to hear this, but trust me you should be doing it"
Is this really a thing? WTF!
Fearmongering at its cheapo capitalist peak, haha
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Old 09-20-2021, 06:37 AM   #19
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Yeah, and also the 'this plugin creates harmonics, it must be analog sounding'. Which is wrong both ways, it could sound diabolically digital, but another plugin that doesn't generate harmonics could sound wonderfully 'analog'. These silly generalisations seem to just go round and round amongst those who don't know better, and just make challenging work harder for everyone caught up in it.
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:07 AM   #20
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Absolutely. The "you might not be able to hear this, but trust me you should be doing it" line is horribly toxic and totally backwards. Everyone, especially beginners, should be developing their listening skills and practising the craft of audio engineering based on what they hear, and that alone.
This goes equally for the chorus of "why doesn't it have oversampling?!" as much as the analogue magic crowd. Most times they don't know why they would want it, nor are they able to hear it (evidenced by a number of plugins that have released with non-functioning oversampling buttons that are only found out because of the latency, not because anyone heard the difference).
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:11 AM   #21
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Absolutely. The "you might not be able to hear this, but trust me you should be doing it" line is horribly toxic and totally backwards. Everyone, especially beginners, should be developing their listening skills and practising the craft of audio engineering based on what they hear, and that alone.
I would caveat that with the idea of feedback between the aural and visual during the beginning of ear training. I think being able to check hunches and gain confidence in listening skills with various visualisation tools can be beneficial.
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:18 AM   #22
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Yes quite right, apologies for overstating mid-rant
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:23 AM   #23
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Yes quite right, apologies for overstating mid-rant
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:09 AM   #24
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Default Oversampling

As far as oversampling is concerned I use Metaplugin by Klanghelm, you can add oversampling to any plugin. Sometimes it's better not to use it, but in about 25% of all cases it is way better. That's just my experience.
Well, discussion about tricks to sell plugins could be almost endless
Some say the gui could play an important role, as well, people or daw users nowadays watch music more than they listen to it.
But Valhalla on the other side has very simple guis, but afaik Valhalla is very popular. So there do not seem to be rules.

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Old 09-20-2021, 10:34 AM   #25
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As far as oversampling is concerned I use Metaplugin by Klanghelm, you can add oversampling to any plugin. Sometimes it's better not to use it, but in about 25% of all cases it is way better. That's just my experience.
I think you mean by DDMF?
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:55 AM   #26
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As far as oversampling is concerned I use Metaplugin by Klanghelm, you can add oversampling to any plugin. Sometimes it's better not to use it, but in about 25% of all cases it is way better. That's just my experience.
Well, discussion about tricks to sell plugins could be almost endless
Some say the gui could play an important role, as well, people or daw users nowadays watch music more than they listen to it.
But Valhalla on the other side has very simple guis, but afaik Valhalla is very popular. So there do not seem to be rules.
I use it on a case-by-case basis, trying to hear any differences when it's engaged. I work at 96kHz though, so it's rare I'll prefer it. Different companies seem to implement it differently as well.

I like a well thought out GUI, and that doesn't matter if it's a photorealistic console or a modern GUI like Valhalla. The appearance isn't as important as the function to me. I know some people find false perspective disorientating, but it doesn't bother me.
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:04 AM   #27
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What I just read one minute ago: "[...] these are the plugs needed to create pro sound within host recording apps."

So, until now it wasn't possible to achieve "pro sound" in a DAW (e.g. Pro Tools (!) or Reaper)?
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:50 AM   #28
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What I just read one minute ago: "[...] these are the plugs needed to create pro sound within host recording apps."

So, until now it wasn't possible to achieve "pro sound" in a DAW (e.g. Pro Tools (!) or Reaper)?
Better scrap every album recorded in the last 20 years and start again with PRO plugins!
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:58 AM   #29
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Better scrap every album recorded in the last 20 years and start again with PRO plugins!
NIchE mArkEt!11!
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:42 PM   #30
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Let's not forget the louder is better effect whether with presets or video presentations and tutorials.
Devs like Acustica Audio, Plugin Alliance or IK Multimedia etc seem to like it...
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:21 PM   #31
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Let's not forget the louder is better effect whether with presets or video presentations and tutorials.
Devs like Acustica Audio, Plugin Alliance or IK Multimedia etc seem to like it...
Sometimes it's deliberate, sometimes it's laziness, sometimes it's not just demos but the plugin itself.

It isn't always as easy as people make out when they accuse companies of deception because the "after" portion of a demo sounds louder; saturation increases perceived level at equal energy, that's kind of the point of it, so which scale do devs pick to match perceived level? There are industry standards, but they're not infallible and can be gamed like anything else.
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Old 09-23-2021, 12:52 AM   #32
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Let's not forget the louder is better effect whether with presets or video presentations and tutorials.
Devs like Acustica Audio, Plugin Alliance or IK Multimedia etc seem to like it...
You have to remember to gain match a plugin FX like True Iron, not to fall into that trap.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:37 AM   #33
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Let's not forget the louder is better effect whether with presets or video presentations and tutorials.
Devs like Acustica Audio, Plugin Alliance or IK Multimedia etc seem to like it...
That's why there's trial versions. In Reaper you have ABLM included, so no excuse.

For a first impression, I also think video presentations are helpful. But they won't replace the hands-on experience.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:03 AM   #34
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Mike Senior recently had a poll asking which of two clips of the same song were louder. There was a strong preference for one over the other, even though it turned out they were LUFS matched.

There is no perfect way to level match, not least because no-one hears in exactly the same way.

Like beingmf says, demoing the plugin yourself is the only way to know. I personally trust level matching by ear over algorithms if I'm comparing different processing.
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:29 AM   #35
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Mike Senior recently had a poll asking which of two clips of the same song were louder. There was a strong preference for one over the other, even though it turned out they were LUFS matched.

There is no perfect way to level match, not least because no-one hears in exactly the same way.

Like beingmf says, demoing the plugin yourself is the only way to know. I personally trust level matching by ear over algorithms if I'm comparing different processing.
Surely full songs are different. Compression used on different instrument tracks could still be combined at a collectively matched level and still sound very different.
OTOH a sneaky 3-6 decibel increase on a single track when applying an FX can make it more appealing in a way that might have fooled the developer, or be designed to fool (or further persuade) the user.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:03 AM   #36
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Surely full songs are different. Compression used on different instrument tracks could still be combined at a collectively matched level and still sound very different.
OTOH a sneaky 3-6 decibel increase on a single track when applying an FX can make it more appealing in a way that might have fooled the developer, or be designed to fool (or further persuade) the user.
That's the point: even the most up-to-date perceived loudness scales fall short and can be gamed.

Not trying to deny that devs use sneaky level boosts to sell plugins, but level matching itself is another can of worms.

Interestingly, the Mike Senior clips were largely about stereo imaging, as far as he let on.
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:29 AM   #37
Naji
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Sometimes it's deliberate, sometimes it's laziness, sometimes it's not just demos but the plugin itself.

It isn't always as easy as people make out when they accuse companies of deception because the "after" portion of a demo sounds louder; saturation increases perceived level at equal energy, that's kind of the point of it, so which scale do devs pick to match perceived level? There are industry standards, but they're not infallible and can be gamed like anything else.
Imo it should be pretty easy, but I might be wrong. Every daw afaik has a volume slider or knob with a display tgat shows peaks or rms.
You even always see the highest peak level
So as soon as you add a plugin for demonstration make sure to match previous gain or loudness level, you even have it displayed visually, of course, sometimes people also use their ears when they listen to or produce music.

Just some weeks ago I tested some IKM tape plugin, I used the presets first. The plugin wants to make you think it makes your tracks sound better, but it was pretty easy to find out that most presets simply make it louder and I do not need a plugin to make a single instrument track louder, I prefer using Repear's volume slider, it's cpu friendly and have not noticed any mud, annoying hiss, aliasing or artefacts yet. Repaer's volume sliders seem to work pretty well

Last edited by Naji; 09-23-2021 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 09-23-2021, 07:58 AM   #38
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I personally trust level matching by ear over algorithms if I'm comparing different processing.
I agree... It's about how loud something "sounds", think about that.
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Old 09-23-2021, 08:29 AM   #39
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I agree... It's about how loud something "sounds", think about that.
Exactly! I'm comparing processing for MY hearing, with all the wackiness 30 years of rehearsal rooms entails!
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Old 09-23-2021, 11:54 AM   #40
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I was kinda with you until you started bashing Izotope only because of the AI feature which you really haven't used yourself, only "saw a friend use it". Then you said you like API stuff but it should be "better" even though you then admitted you don't know API in real life. And you said something bad about a plugin because it had no "mojo".

I mean....
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